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Catskills in NYS

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/09/images-reveal-three-more-japanese-wwii-shipwrecks-torn-apart-for-scrap


Three Japanese ships that sank off the coast of Borneo during the second world war have been destroyed in an apparent illegal metal salvage operation, according to photos taken by divers and passed to the Guardian.

The sunken cargo transporters, believed by divers and historians to be the Kokusei Maru, Higane Maru and Hiyori Maru, were torpedoed during the 1944 Pacific War by US forces and are likely to still hold the remains of dozens of crewmen.

Collectively, they are known as the Usukan wrecks, and their near-pristine state and rich coral and marine life has attracted recreational divers to Malaysia’s Sabah state. All three are within a kilometre of each other.

The looting of Australian, American, British, Dutch and Japanese warships for scrap metal in south-east Asian seas has caused outrage, with veterans and governments arguing that the vessels must be preserved as underwater war graves for sailors.

Scuba diver Monica Chin said local fishermen called her late last month to say a large Chinese vessel with workers on board was using a crane to tear apart the Japanese ships.

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Photos and video footage taken by the fisherman and passed to the Guardian show a large ship with a giant crane for hoisting underwater material. Ship-tracking websites describe the vessel as a “grab dredger”.

Chin arranged for a group of divers to visit the site, which she said was until last year in a “beautiful condition. It’s an underwater museum.”

She remained on the boat while a team descended to investigate. When they surfaced, they showed her the photos. “It totally broke my heart,” she said. “It made me cry. I just cant believe it ... I wish the pictures were wrong. I wish that it was not true.”

Locally, the three wrecks are known as Rice Bowl Wreck – named after its cargo of hundreds of bowls – Upside Down Wreck and Usukan Wreck.

Another diver, Mark Hedger, who works as an instructor in Sabah’s capital, Kota Kinabalu, used to make the 75-minute boat trip to the wreck sites with customers.

He wrote a statement on what he found during a recent dive, saying the Usukan and Upside Down wrecks were “98% and 99% gone”.

The Rice Bowl wreck, he said, was an unrecognisable “heap of metal piled up into a ball”.

“I was speechless ... There was what looked like a cable over the top of the pile of metal, maybe from the salvage ship.”

When Chin asked authorities about the salvaging, they showed her a letter saying the work was authorised as “research” by the local Universiti Malaysia Sabah (UMS) archaeological unit.

The Malaysian New Straits Times reported that the vice-chancellor of the university said the Japanese cargo vessels contained three tonnes of “toxic materials” that were harming the environment. Local divers dispute this claim.

After the divers and residents of coastal communities complained, the Sabah Marine Department issued a withdrawal letter to the company commissioned by UMS to hire the Chinese-registered vessel.

Naval shipwrecks are granted sovereign immunity under international law and remain the property of their nations, in this case Japan. These protections makes it illegal to destroy them without permission from Tokyo.

A Malaysian fisherman had also filed a police report after he said the Chinese crew ordered him and others to pull up their fishing nets and leave the area.

However, by that point, the ships were destroyed. The Sabah Marine Department later sent a team of officers to the vessel and found that material from the wrecks were on the ship, including an anchor.

Tokyo has not officially claimed or identified the Usukan wrecks.

The Japanese foreign ministry said it was unaware of the wrecks and directed the Guardian to the health ministry, which deals with the remains of deceased Japanese soldiers.

“The government’s policy is to leave underwater war graves as they are if it has been confirmed that they contain the remains of crewmen,” a health ministry official told the Guardian. The official added that wrecks were considered the responsibility of the government of the territory where the sunken ships lie.

Over the past two years, the Japanese government has stepped up efforts to recover the remains of more than 1.1 million of its soldiers and civilians killed during the second world war.
The remains are spread across a vast area that stretches from Russia in the north, through East Asia and to Pacific islands and Japanese territories such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Veterans and marine historians warn that dozens of ships of historical and sentimental value sitting on the bed of the South China Sea are being desecrated by illegal salvagers.

Crews pretending to be fishermen have scavenged the waters around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia, looting the wrecks for parts, including steel, aluminium and brass.

Some of the propellors, often the first items to be stolen, are made of phosphor bronze scrap metal, valued at over £2,000 ($2,500) a tonne. The ships are also a source for highly desirable low-background steel, which is extremely hard to find.

Last year, the Guardian revealed that three British ships and a US submarine that sank in the Java Sea during the second world war had been blown apart and salvaged for metal. The UK’s Ministry of Defence said it condemned the “unauthorised disturbance of any wreck containing human remains” and requested Indonesian authorities investigate and take “appropriate action”.

The Netherlands defence ministry is also conducting an investigation into the disappearance of three of its own shipwrecks, all sunk in the Java Sea. “The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence,” it has said in a statement.



I know we heard about some dutch wrecks a little while back, but we really need to put a stop to this. It is absolutely disgusting that these people are getting away with this. It's like digging up a graveyard to steal gold fillings.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Aye.. But given that steel is hard to find.
Anyone selling a large amount of low rad steel soon or any projects that require it. If locals not protect em...

It needs to stop.
At least some like the big Yamamoto class are sunk too deep. Safe.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
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Between illegal secret salvaging and illegal zoo break ins to kill rhinos it seems there is some ill fated goofiness going on at the moment.

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looks to me like they were torn apart for scrap back in 1944.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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This grinds me to no end.

This is like taking a crap on a war memorial. People died on those ships, let them rest.

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The Great State of Texas

On the flip side, this is a very poor area. Why not benefit the living?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Frazzled wrote:
On the flip side, this is a very poor area. Why not benefit the living?


Because its a Grave.
now if say Japan had taken or the bodies where removed with dignity, given proper burial and such.
then it might be more apceptable. if theres no bodies left on board, its not a grave.

But. they just trashed the ships for metal so no.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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The Great State of Texas

Fair point.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

least ships like Musashi sit over 1000 metres down, her sister 350 metres,

Though Prince of Wales, and Repulse have been damaged by scrap hunters.

Samw with many others sank in less deep waters.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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Fort Campbell

This is pure piracy, plain and simple. These people should be treated as such, if caught.

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 djones520 wrote:
This is pure piracy, plain and simple. These people should be treated as such, if caught.


Unfortunately the salvagers are unlikely to get caught because the Naval shipwrecks remain the property of their nations but those nations don't have the resources to protect them. In this instance the Malaysian govt gave permission to the salvage company to scrap the Japanese naval shipwrecks, without getting approval from Tokyo so local authorities aren't always interested in protecting the shipwrecks either. As long as they can keep getting away with it salvage companies will keep looting Naval shipwrecks.

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 Ahtman wrote:
Between illegal secret salvaging and illegal zoo break ins to kill rhinos it seems there is some ill fated goofiness going on at the moment.



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You have been warned!

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Navies need ships for gunary practice and such...

Be a good fate for those ships tipping apart war graves.
If you catch em blow there expensive ship to scrap metal and let it join the many hulks on sea bed.

They might not like losing a expensive crane ship.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
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United States

I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples. People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage. It seems pretty privileged to me that a bunch of people who have the disposable income to have a hobby of playing with little plastic soldiers that cost hundreds of dollars and have the free time to complain about them on the internet are riled up enough to call for the deaths of people living in the third world, where this scrap metal may mean the difference between life and death for them.
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples. People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage. It seems pretty privileged to me that a bunch of people who have the disposable income to have a hobby of playing with little plastic soldiers that cost hundreds of dollars and have the free time to complain about them on the internet are riled up enough to call for the deaths of people living in the third world, where this scrap metal may mean the difference between life and death for them.


So the Arizona is nice and shallow is it ok for a poor Hawaiian to take from her hull or are only your scared objects respected...
That's a extension of your logic right?

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in ie
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Dublin

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples. People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage. It seems pretty privileged to me that a bunch of people who have the disposable income to have a hobby of playing with little plastic soldiers that cost hundreds of dollars and have the free time to complain about them on the internet are riled up enough to call for the deaths of people living in the third world, where this scrap metal may mean the difference between life and death for them.


I largely agree with you. I'm reminded of something Gandalf said in Return of the King, regarding the people of Minas Tirith. "They built grand tombs for their ancestors, while letting their civilisation crumble." The living come first. They have to come first.

I let the dogs out 
   
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United States

If someone needed a home and the Arizona is several hundred tonnes of scrap metal between freezing in the rain and having a shelter to sleep in...I don't see any problem in destroying the grave of the dead to help save the living. But thanks for making the implication that I'm racist because you are trying to put words in my mouth about being culturally hierarchical. You on the other hand are the one who is advocating that naval vessels (military) fire on salvagers (civilians).
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
If someone needed a home and the Arizona is several hundred tonnes of scrap metal between freezing in the rain and having a shelter to sleep in...I don't see any problem in destroying the grave of the dead to help save the living. But thanks for making the implication that I'm racist because you are trying to put words in my mouth about being culturally hierarchical. You on the other hand are the one who is advocating that naval vessels (military) fire on salvagers (civilians).


On there ships after we arrest them...
I doubt they own the damn things anyway.
The article said the one was from China, thr large ship capable of hauling up the metal. The local boats can,t move heavy steel like that goliath.
Without the big crane ships you cannot scrap a large ship with any effective rate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 23:07:31


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte




United States

your initial argument to me was about poor Hawaiians. Now its about...I'm not sure... your sentence fragments are scattered and don't make a whole lot of sense. Is there an argument there? If there is, what you are trying to do right now is called
"moving the goalposts" you initially tried to goad me into a position that you could attack me with moral superiority, but when confronted with my response you then bring up an entirely different scenario. Are we discussing indigenous peoples or are we discussing companies? Whichever it is, my position is that all this metal is doing nothing to help people sitting at the bottom of the ocean. Whether or not it is a grave is secondary to the good that the materials can do after being re-purposed into something that can help the living.
   
Made in nl
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 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples.

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
Whether or not it is a grave is secondary to the good that the materials can do after being re-purposed into something that can help the living.

These are ridiculous arguments. First like jhe90 said these aren't poor people scrapping these ships, these operations cost money that is far beyond the means of some poor locals. It also destroys the seabed and disrupts tourism in this case, which would have most likely benefited local people more than a one time smash and grab by a Chinese vessel.

Second, the comment about not caring about our war dead is just offensive. There are thousands of Commonwealth, Canadian, German and U.S. troops buried in the Netherlands alone, let alone the rest of Western Europe. I guess the U.S. government doesn't care about their troops that died here to "honor" them by repatriating them? Never mind the difficulty in locating all those people after they sank to the bottom of the ocean both trapped inside the ship or after being left on the surface for a time before drowning. In the case of the Dutch ships in the Java Sea, it was considered part of the Dutch empire or homeland (moral implications aside), with people serving on those ships being born in the Dutch East Indies, their homeland. Don't they deserve some honor for fighting and dying what they considered Dutch or home? Why do we not just pave over all these grave sites in the Netherlands to make parking lots? In that way the land can be re-purposed into something that can help the living park their car!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/17 23:37:49


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Catskills in NYS

Well, first, it isn't poor starving Malaysians who are doing this, it's scrapping companies. It's a way to make a quick buck, not some sort of life or death situation.

Secondly, steel is not so rare that these wrecks are the only way to get it or some nonsense. The idea that these things are "just metal doing nothing to help people" is secondary to the fact that it is both incredibly offensive and unnecessary.

The idea that you would just kick the bodies out of the way and loot these things is disgusting. I guess you would not be opposed to me digging up your parents or grandparents to use their marrow to feed starving dogs? Or pry out their fillings to donate to donate make a quick buck? All that land taken up by graveyards would be a perfect place to build another building, let's just dump the bodies in the ocean, it's not like they are doing anything to help people.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in gb
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Check the article. The ship involved was a rather heavy dredger.

It also seemed to look pretty new. Cleanish paint, not battered, likely a good few million, plus its big that's gonna take some fuel.

No poor locals could ever afford to get there hands on those.
And any "pay" might last a few weeks max for locals at best. And low at that.

There taking the steel and propellers which on biggest weigh 15 tons, there's multiple. And 2,500+ dollers a ton.

Yeah there making peanuts off those wrecks localy.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Some new points to add to that already stated.

1. Ethics of the business.
It's wrong but it will happen, and we indirectly endorse it by our demand for cheap steel. Most of us will claim to not like hothouse labour, but most gamers and gaming companies will buy Chinese sourced models which are produced at a fraction at the cost but where workers have few if any rights.

2. Regional politics.
As some have already state it isnt the local poor who are doing the recovery but corporations, to make matters worse its a Chinese registered vessel, that probably means it is actually Chinese, China is not a flag of convenience per se, but it is useful here as China makes unilateral claim to all the territorial waters past the 12 mile limit in this region, because China. There is more going on here, Indonesia could complain but it would involve poking the bear.

3. Ethics of ocean salvage.
It's a large grey area internationally, which involves a number of contradicting claims and jurisdictions. For example look at the salvage claims on the titanic, which have been fought in the US courts, while the ship was UK registered and is in international waters giving the UK primacy over the wreck. The US based legal claim is not enforcable outside the US and has been widely ignored elsewhere. In addition looking at the Titanic case, as what part does grave robbing turn to archeology, at what point does scavenging become a legal treasure hunt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jhe90 wrote:
Check the article. The ship involved was a rather heavy dredger.

It also seemed to look pretty new. Cleanish paint, not battered, likely a good few million, plus its big that's gonna take some fuel.

No poor locals could ever afford to get there hands on those.
And any "pay" might last a few weeks max for locals at best. And low at that.

There taking the steel and propellers which on biggest weigh 15 tons, there's multiple. And 2,500+ dollers a ton.

Yeah there making peanuts off those wrecks localy.



All this means that the operators intend to do a full sweep of known wreck sites to maximise return.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/19 18:16:47


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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The Great State of Texas

 jhe90 wrote:
 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples. People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage. It seems pretty privileged to me that a bunch of people who have the disposable income to have a hobby of playing with little plastic soldiers that cost hundreds of dollars and have the free time to complain about them on the internet are riled up enough to call for the deaths of people living in the third world, where this scrap metal may mean the difference between life and death for them.


So the Arizona is nice and shallow is it ok for a poor Hawaiian to take from her hull or are only your scared objects respected...
That's a extension of your logic right?


Actually the Arizona is guarded, and of course its in the middle of the freaking US Navy. Try and die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, first, it isn't poor starving Malaysians who are doing this, it's scrapping companies. It's a way to make a quick buck, not some sort of life or death situation.

Secondly, steel is not so rare that these wrecks are the only way to get it or some nonsense. The idea that these things are "just metal doing nothing to help people" is secondary to the fact that it is both incredibly offensive and unnecessary.

The idea that you would just kick the bodies out of the way and loot these things is disgusting. I guess you would not be opposed to me digging up your parents or grandparents to use their marrow to feed starving dogs? Or pry out their fillings to donate to donate make a quick buck? All that land taken up by graveyards would be a perfect place to build another building, let's just dump the bodies in the ocean, it's not like they are doing anything to help people.


These are good points. On the flip side neither the US Navy or the Japanese Navy appear to be giving a gak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/19 19:10:04


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Dublin

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Secondly, steel is not so rare that these wrecks are the only way to get it or some nonsense. The idea that these things are "just metal doing nothing to help people" is secondary to the fact that it is both incredibly offensive and unnecessary.

The idea that you would just kick the bodies out of the way and loot these things is disgusting. I guess you would not be opposed to me digging up your parents or grandparents to use their marrow to feed starving dogs? Or pry out their fillings to donate to donate make a quick buck? All that land taken up by graveyards would be a perfect place to build another building, let's just dump the bodies in the ocean, it's not like they are doing anything to help people.


Relevant our not depending on our respective points of view -there's no bodies on board the wrecks. Skeletons break down very quickly at sea.

I let the dogs out 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage.


Ah yes. These poor people and their $30 million dollar recovery vessel... Wait.


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Grave sites on land are often re -used for housing, industrial use, to put a road through them, etc; It's hard to build anything in London without coming across a plague pit, Roman or Viking burial site, etc.

Civilian shipwrecks seem to be fair game - see the Titanic, any number of Spanish wrecks in the Caribbean; the only argument is who gets to keep the booty, not whether it should be done at all.

I find it hard to see what the difference is here. It's not like they're dredging these wrecks up to use sailors' skulls for wineglasses.
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 kronk wrote:
 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage.


Ah yes. These poor people and their $30 million dollar recovery vessel... Wait.




I'm sure poor locals can afford the hire cost of a few thousand roller a day vessel if it was chartered.
And afford thr fuel to get it from China, and its crew.

Sure. Thr locals won,t br seeing a single penny from the salvage work.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 Frazzled wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I fully support these people stripping these ships. The reason people are salvaging these wrecks is because they need the resources and this is the easiest way for them to go about getting them. Yes they may be grave sites, but if the governments actually cared about such things as the "honor of the dead" they've had literally decades to re-inter their soldiers back to their homelands. Instead they've left warships that are nothing but hazards to native peoples. People who are so poor some scrap metal is enough of a resource to convince them to risk the extreme dangers of underwater salvage. It seems pretty privileged to me that a bunch of people who have the disposable income to have a hobby of playing with little plastic soldiers that cost hundreds of dollars and have the free time to complain about them on the internet are riled up enough to call for the deaths of people living in the third world, where this scrap metal may mean the difference between life and death for them.


So the Arizona is nice and shallow is it ok for a poor Hawaiian to take from her hull or are only your scared objects respected...
That's a extension of your logic right?


Actually the Arizona is guarded, and of course its in the middle of the freaking US Navy. Try and die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, first, it isn't poor starving Malaysians who are doing this, it's scrapping companies. It's a way to make a quick buck, not some sort of life or death situation.

Secondly, steel is not so rare that these wrecks are the only way to get it or some nonsense. The idea that these things are "just metal doing nothing to help people" is secondary to the fact that it is both incredibly offensive and unnecessary.

The idea that you would just kick the bodies out of the way and loot these things is disgusting. I guess you would not be opposed to me digging up your parents or grandparents to use their marrow to feed starving dogs? Or pry out their fillings to donate to donate make a quick buck? All that land taken up by graveyards would be a perfect place to build another building, let's just dump the bodies in the ocean, it's not like they are doing anything to help people.


These are good points. On the flip side neither the US Navy or the Japanese Navy appear to be giving a gak.


It's not that we don't give a gak Frazz, but putting a ship to sea is an expensive venture. We have to prioritize where our ships are, and we can't have them just sitting out at every war grave, waiting for salvagers. The Japanese Navy is no different in those regards. They're even more restricted in the sense of their deployability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Grave sites on land are often re -used for housing, industrial use, to put a road through them, etc; It's hard to build anything in London without coming across a plague pit, Roman or Viking burial site, etc.

Civilian shipwrecks seem to be fair game - see the Titanic, any number of Spanish wrecks in the Caribbean; the only argument is who gets to keep the booty, not whether it should be done at all.

I find it hard to see what the difference is here. It's not like they're dredging these wrecks up to use sailors' skulls for wineglasses.


Your example of war graves being destroyed for new housing?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 14:24:14


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