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So I started 40k with a Wraithlord and guardians. These are the backbone of all the list I like to play but also they seem to be the reason that the list I like dont do well in combat. The guardians are too short range to make effective use of their fire power against even marines and the Wraithlord get gunned down because his only save is a 3+ armor. The only tactics I find are how to use bikes but are their any good tactics to make Wraithlords and guardians a viable fighting force at the 1000/2000 point level.

Look at Gathering Storm II Black Guardians and Reborn Warhost.

Black Guardians get to Deep Strike without scatter 9" from enemy and if you take them in Ulthwe Strike Force then they can roll for Reserves from turn 1. This pretty much fixes Guardian Defenders.

Reborn Warhost gives Wraihlord Soulburst capabilities which may help him a lot with a bit of practice (but he's still an underdog). And he quite nicely benefits from Ynnari Warlord Traits if you make him your Warlord, he is character after all.

Dude. Wraithlord are awsome. High toughness lots of wounds and great options. I usually kit mine with double lance, 2 flamers and glaive. (That way he can snipe long range, flame hordes and kick butt in combat)

The trick to him is he needs support and things to back him up. And sadly guardians won't do that. Grab some scat bikes, maybe some psyker support and anything else. Use battle focus to move run shoot, or soulburst if ynari. Properly supported a wraithlord is a powerhouse. But left alone - yea he will eat every single lazcannon and high str low ap shot out here and go down fast.

[size=12]My lords are fitted with duel star cannons and duels shuriken cannons because I was often being killed by heavy infantry like marines. So if I go the long range with Lance's how do I get around using bikes. What alternative to bikes is there.

In the troop slot there isn't much. Also, Wraithlord don't have Battle Focus unless taken as part of specific formations.

If you to look into backing them up, check Doom of Mymeara and the Wraithseer. He can give one Feel No Pain. Running the new Yncarne also can give it to them I think (and multiples in that case).

Put a D-Cannon on the Wraithseer and Scatter Lasers on the Wraithlords. Add flamers too instead of Shurikens. You only want to use the flamers for Overwatch. Use the Scatters for actual shooting.

Fielding all of that should eat most of your points but should also let your Wraithlords hit harder and survive better I think.

Guardians are awesome against isolated targets.

They are really fast for a foot unit in the guardian battlehost but are still paper thin, so they need to pick on isolated targets.

Wratihlords just suck, there's no way to get around it.

OP question: both.
In smaller games up to say 1k they are okay as there is rarely enough anti tank to reliably kill them in a turn or two and being immune to everyone's favourite handgun is useful. At larger games shield them with axe wraithblades for reliable cover and a guardian dquad for the nono. Add a second lord for more melee nono
Still nothing of this is anywhere near competitive. But there's so much strong stuff in this book, we got some leeway don't you think?

I think that's where I'm getting bogged down. I've tried falcon and prism squads but they fail to make any kills and 400 points is a lot to not make a kill. Out side of using bikes I can go cheap with rangers and avengers with a Farseer and wraith knight but he dies turn two in most games and rarely get his points back. Walkers die easy because everyone else out ranges my effective range. And bikes are highly praised for being cheap and having lots of shots. It's kinda depressing that to have a good game I have to play with overly effective units instead of the units I like.

BTW most games I'm playing are against Nids, necrons, or orks.

Wraithlords, at least those without some kind of formation bonus, are way overpriced. You are paying half the price of a Wraithknight for way less than half the threat. Bikes do Volume of Fire better. Wraithknight does Hulk Smash better and, much sooner. War Walkers do Bright Lances 3x as good for the same price, along with scout. Just about any entry does movement better, except the Avatar but at least he has the Fearless Bubble. It's not that the Wraithlord is bad, per se, it is actually a solid dependable unit but, almost any entry in the Craftworld Codex can do more, with less points. I use it with 2x BL and Sword for ranged and intimate anti-tank work that can't be bothered by Bolters.

TLDR: Eldar dex has OP so Wrathlord not Bad but, least goodly.

The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

Compared to another MC staple, the carnifex, it's an amazing MC.

The Wraithlord's problem is that it is a 3rd edition unit in a 7th edition game. It just wasn't meant to fight things like Grav, D weapons, and rending galore. It was from a day when it's greatest threat was a devastator squad with missile launchers. It's priced fine for it's stats and abilities it's just power creep has made it obsolete like many other units in the game.

They are a unit to be fielded in a toned down game. The best role I have found for them is that of a highly resilient weapon platform that babysits backfield fragile units or objectives. Not really cost effective but still fun to play in non competitive games.

Hey I just wanna say that I feel your pain OP. I have been playing eldar since 5th ed and am a huge fan of footdar as I play Biel-tan (rest in piece). Currently I have been working on a new idea for playing eldar which is largely inspired by revolutionary war/ roman empire skirmish lines. The end goal of the list is to be able to run predominantly footdar. I'm also still testing it out and it is definetly nor metta as it lacks many d cannons but the core idea is pretty stronge.

Take as many troops as you can. Then pile on infiltrators and fast moving units, namely warpspiders, vypers, warwalkers, striking scorpions, and rangers (i like to give them Illic). Next you will be attempting to get into combat/shooting down as many scary things, and low armor troops as you can. It is alright if these units take heavy casualties because they are just a distraction while you are busy footslogging the remainder of you troops up the field. Then when your gaurdians, dire avengers, wraithlords, ect. arrive you decimate the opposing force with your fresh units.

So i guess the core of my statement is that Footdar can be plenty scarry and Wraith Lords can be super useful as long as you can properly support them. You need to give your opponent things to shoot at so that your footdar can be used to their full potential. Distract him with a swarm of 5 vypers all toting shuriken cannons and scat lasers with support from Bright lance warwalkers and your opponent will have little time to focus on your 12 inch 5+ armor guardians. Attack his devastators/equivalents with striking scorpions and he wont have time to mow you down.

Also getting the initiative when employing this strategy is important so roll well and if you don't then take cover. Hope some of this helps and sorry if its not 100 percent coherent im writing between classes and im rather tired. Good luck!

 buddha wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

Compared to another MC staple, the carnifex, it's an amazing MC.

The Wraithlord's problem is that it is a 3rd edition unit in a 7th edition game. It just wasn't meant to fight things like Grav, D weapons, and rending galore. It was from a day when it's greatest threat was a devastator squad with missile launchers. It's priced fine for it's stats and abilities it's just power creep has made it obsolete like many other units in the game.

in general MC are in a pretty bad place in the case of Tyranids they suffered like orks in that their new codex did not bring them even up to the middle. Wraithlords and carnifexes are both decent at best. same cost for unit Wl has +2 toughness and ld 10, while the carnifex has +1 wound +1 str. they are both fairly durable, admittedly the WL more, but neither is worth 120 base before weapons. if they had fnp like GMC, IWD, or something else to make them a little more resilliant it would help, but in the heavy str 6 meta we have now they just both disappear.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

Nah, they're all just as bad (though the Exocrine's a little better).

MCs still better than vehicles. Had to point it out.

 Imateria wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

Nah, they're all just as bad (though the Exocrine's a little better).

I wouldn't say that. the Nid MCs are much worse. The Wraithlord actually is somewhat survivable because of T8 and 3+ armor. The tyranid MCs don't have either the saves or the toughness to make it. They can still get gunned down by bolters which at least the Wraithlord is immune to.

The Wratihlord is closer to what MCs should be, and I think with a point reduction and maybe a better save it could be viable. Nids need a bunch more work.

Come on now. No one is losing MCs to bolters.

Dying outright, probably not. but I've seen a number of MCs lose a wound to a bolter or similar shot that sneaked through.

A volley of small arms has finished the last wound off my Dreadknights more than once. Not super often, but it happens. Carnifexes would be more vulnerable to it.

I saw Magnus once get finished off by a Tactical Squad's bolters after he'd gotten knocked out of the sky.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dying outright, probably not. but I've seen a number of MCs lose a wound to a bolter or similar shot that sneaked through.

A volley of small arms has finished the last wound off my Dreadknights more than once. Not super often, but it happens. Carnifexes would be more vulnerable to it.

But that's so much wasted fire. They could have done way more damage elsewhere. It's a losing choice usually. I know grav is an issue, but against nearly every other heavy weapon, MCs don't give a feth. You'll never do enough damage with lascannons in time.

Martel732 wrote:
Come on now. No one is losing MCs to bolters.

I do.
I've lost dozens upon dozens of MCs to boltguns or similar. And not even a lot, One 10 man squad tend to hideously wound any I field.
I've had a single Space marine sergeant slap down a Daemon Prince with a sword.

MOST MC are awful. SOME are OP as heck and give the rest a bad name.

Martel732 wrote:
Come on now. No one is losing MCs to bolters.

It used to be the case that MCs that could only move 6" would be stripped of wounds by mass Bolter fire. Kinda how Vehicles can get stripped of HPs by str6 spam.
The issue now is that Grav, said str6 spam and other tricks have made most MCs very difficult to use. That is one reason why FMCs and GMCs are so powerful, because they severly limit this weakness.
WLs and the other half of the Nid MCs have not caught up. My vote is to increase their base movement, but there are so, so many "fixes" that could work.




.....Just sittin' here waiting on 8th ed....

-

Jbz` wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Come on now. No one is losing MCs to bolters.

I do.
I've lost dozens upon dozens of MCs to boltguns or similar. And not even a lot, One 10 man squad tend to hideously wound any I field.
I've had a single Space marine sergeant slap down a Daemon Prince with a sword.

MOST MC are awful. SOME are OP as heck and give the rest a bad name.

Funny that I've rarely on the right end of this phenomenon. Maybe the free AP2 is just worse for BA than for other chapters that just ignore melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Come on now. No one is losing MCs to bolters.

It used to be the case that MCs that could only move 6" would be stripped of wounds by mass Bolter fire. Kinda how Vehicles can get stripped of HPs by str6 spam.
The issue now is that Grav, said str6 spam and other tricks have made most MCs very difficult to use. That is one reason why FMCs and GMCs are so powerful, because they severly limit this weakness.
WLs and the other half of the Nid MCs have not caught up. My vote is to increase their base movement, but there are so, so many "fixes" that could work.




.....Just sittin' here waiting on 8th ed....

-

Yes. The Eldar do so love you T6 3+ MCs. They kill them efficiently with literally every unit in their tourney lists.

Most MCs definitely need to be a little more durable and faster.

What if Carnifexes could take an upgrade(or just naturally had) for a rule that gave them extra toughness or armor vs shooting attacks?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

Nah, they're all just as bad (though the Exocrine's a little better).

I wouldn't say that. the Nid MCs are much worse. The Wraithlord actually is somewhat survivable because of T8 and 3+ armor. The tyranid MCs don't have either the saves or the toughness to make it. They can still get gunned down by bolters which at least the Wraithlord is immune to.

The Wratihlord is closer to what MCs should be, and I think with a point reduction and maybe a better save it could be viable. Nids need a bunch more work.

You are forgetting something About nids MC's They NEED synapse, and are LD 6-7 compare to LD 10

T8 vs T6 also means S6 needs 4's compare to 6's and Bolters too

Nids MC are much worst, they are the same coat for 2 toughness less, IB lower LD and worst options for gear and guns.

Yeah, GW somewhat overvalues Synapse and being able to be in a unit for Carnifexes.

If they could at least get into melee easier, they'd be a little better.

Even the Wraithlord with a Sword is good and cheap. And he has the Character rule.

Martel732 wrote:
MCs still better than vehicles. Had to point it out.

Not when those vehicles are ObSec and FREE...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
MCs still better than vehicles. Had to point it out.

Not when those vehicles are ObSec and FREE...

True, but that's one build of one army. Tau, IG, BA, DA, SW, Eldar, etc all have vehicles inferior to MCs. That's a much bigger pool of lists.