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So i use to magnetize everything. I was all about wysiwyg and having my options avilable to me. But the more models i build and the more kits i see the more i am thinking that true wysiwig is just unreasonable. This is not the case for say... A kit that comes with all the options. But every army has a hq that has wargear that they do not have modeling options for. No army has a bit that represents their artifact/relic/signature equipment.

Termagants have no model for a strangleweb or a spike rifle. Crisis suits barely come with 1 of each gun per suit and don't actually have every gun they can take on their sprues.

I know your opponent being able to tell what you have is important. But at what point is it just unreasonable to expect wisywig? I feel like the moment gw doesn't provide the option (or enough of the option) in the box with the model it's no longer your responsibility.

Thoughts?

This isn't an actual rules question.

Much like base sizes, as far as I am aware, the BRB provides precious little rules about actual modeling.

Purely from a rules perspective, there's no reason why you couldn't use little green army men to represent imperial guardsmen or cultists.

The answer about wysiwyg is going to vary based on your own gaming meta.

 Traditio wrote:
Much like base sizes, as far as I am aware, the BRB provides precious little rules about actual modeling.

Purely from a rules perspective, there's no reason why you couldn't use little green army men to represent imperial guardsmen or cultists.

The answer about wysiwyg is going to vary based on your own gaming meta.

Pretty much. 5th Edition was the last time WYSIWYG was mentioned in the rulebook. The only ones who will care are your opponents and tournaments.

Well you see, my opponents are more beer and pretzel style. So it's not so much my group.

But even in a tourney. Is it really fair? Should a player have to scrounge ebay for missile pods for crisis suits or buy 4 boxes of crisis suits to build 3 models with 2 tl guns?

Isn't that expectation a little stupid?

 Lance845 wrote:
Should a player have to scrounge ebay for missile pods for crisis suits or buy 4 boxes of crisis suits to build 3 models with 2 tl guns?

He doesn't have to. He can choose to just use the options that come in the box, instead.

Isn't that expectation a little stupid?

Why?

generally speaking the rule has always been "so long as your opponent knows whatcha got" in other words don't run termagaunts all models with 1 weapon and then claim they represent 3 differant weapons.for example "all my plasma guns are grav guns" is fine, "that plasma gun is a metla gun, that is a flamer and that is a missile launcher" gets a bit hard to keep track of so is proably a bad idea

Tournaments are so rushed that any confusion you cause the opponent is far more unfair than making you buy a $5 part.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well you see, my opponents are more beer and pretzel style. So it's not so much my group.

But even in a tourney. Is it really fair? Should a player have to scrounge ebay for missile pods for crisis suits or buy 4 boxes of crisis suits to build 3 models with 2 tl guns?

Isn't that expectation a little stupid?

Fair in a tournament setting isn't about how much you spent to make the list you want (you could of built the options that came with the kit but decided on wanting other weapons)
Fair for tournaments is that your opponent can glance at a model and tell exactly what it is armed with because the weapons are accurate representations. This prevents one player gaining an unfair advantage (even accidentally) when their flamers turn out to be plasma guns.

I see nothing wrong with making your own weapon. Modifying a current weapon to look like what it is supposed to be. Just do a quick google search and you will find a tutorial on how to make just about every weapon.

 Lance845 wrote:
But even in a tourney. Is it really fair? Should a player have to scrounge ebay for missile pods for crisis suits or buy 4 boxes of crisis suits to build 3 models with 2 tl guns?

You cant give a regular crisis suit 2 twin-linked guns. As a twin-linked gun takes up 2 weapon/equipment slots and a regular non Commander Crisis Suit has 3 Weapon/Equipment slots. Thus you can take 2 regular guns, Or 1 twin-linked and 1 regular gun, But not 2 twin-linked.

I think respect for your opponents should be paramount in these cases. If a kit doesn't contain the exact weapon options you want AND you don't want to pay extra money for those bits (3rd party manufacturers, FW etc.) AND you aren't willing to make a decent conversion then you should just use the best alternative weapon option.

A bit of leeway can be fair though. If you can lay your army out and say "This hive tyrant's acid spray gun actually represents two pairs of brainleech devourers" and that's the extent of extra information the opponent has to remember then it isn't unreasonable. But when you're doing the same for multiple units in your army I think it becomes an unnecessary burden for the opponent that gives you an unfair advantage

Common sense should apply

In the case of a box set not having the representative part, WYSIWYG can slide, and players should proxy with whatever fits closest; it's not their fault that GW still hasn't made Spike Rifles.

I prefer players to go by WYSIWYG whenever it is possible though. I know they can buy some extra Plasma Guns to make that Plasma Vet squad, so make it happen. Most of the time though I don't mind if the player can make it clear to me before a game starts, although there is a point where proxying becomes ridiculous and spoils the aesthetic pleasure I used to get from playing 40k.

Crisis suits barely come with 1 of each gun per suit and don't actually have every gun they can take on their sprues

The new sprues come with more than enough weapons for just about any combination; the only time you'd struggle is if you want to equip a squad with 3 of the same type of weapon.

I've got a pile of Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods lying about if you need the extras

 General Annoyance wrote:
In the case of a box set not having the representative part, WYSIWYG can slide, and players should proxy with whatever fits closest; it's not their fault that GW still hasn't made Spike Rifles.

Not currently in production, I will admit that at least.



These, however, are metal GW models, all older of course, which showcase Webspinners, Fleshborers, and Spike Rifles. With a decent amount of effort one can still find enough of them to fill a big brood.

How about devastator squads supporting 4 of a specific heavy but only shipping 2 of each heavy type? You need to buy 2 kits to make 1 5 man squad unless you ebay it.

 Marmatag wrote:
How about devastator squads supporting 4 of a specific heavy but only shipping 2 of each heavy type? You need to buy 2 kits to make 1 5 man squad unless you ebay it.

At least they have a range of heavy weapons. By the suggestion in the OP, Tactical Squads wouldn't have to actually have to show any of their heavy weapons other than missile launchers...

Also trading.

Just because you love plasma guns, another player may only use melts and flamer.

You both have spares. A quick trade and bingo

 insaniak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How about devastator squads supporting 4 of a specific heavy but only shipping 2 of each heavy type? You need to buy 2 kits to make 1 5 man squad unless you ebay it.

At least they have a range of heavy weapons. By the suggestion in the OP, Tactical Squads wouldn't have to actually have to show any of their heavy weapons other than missile launchers...

Less, "by my suggestion" and more just having the discussion. I like to be as wysiwyg as possible personally. I spent a lot of time magnetizing a lot of models. I don't think the effort was worth the pay off anymore. And especially when it's a kit with options GW doesn't provide I am inclined to say as long as the model has something to make them stand out so you opponent knows that guy has the special thing it's not a huge deal.

Again... no army has any modeling pieces to show their relic options.

How would you even model a puretide engram onto a battlesuit commander?

There is a point where it's unreasonable to expect wysiwyg. I realize ymmv and everyones line is going to be in a different spot. But that line is going to exist.

 Lance845 wrote:
So i use to magnetize everything. I was all about wysiwyg and having my options avilable to me. But the more models i build and the more kits i see the more i am thinking that true wysiwig is just unreasonable. This is not the case for say... A kit that comes with all the options. But every army has a hq that has wargear that they do not have modeling options for. No army has a bit that represents their artifact/relic/signature equipment.

Termagants have no model for a strangleweb or a spike rifle. Crisis suits barely come with 1 of each gun per suit and don't actually have every gun they can take on their sprues.

I know your opponent being able to tell what you have is important. But at what point is it just unreasonable to expect wisywig? I feel like the moment gw doesn't provide the option (or enough of the option) in the box with the model it's no longer your responsibility.

Thoughts?

It's always your responsibility to make it as clear as possible for your opponent. You can either buy the weapon bits separate, make a conversion or simply put a marker near the model with the right description as a reminder.

At a tournament you can get away with some small stuff but don't expect players to accept your 'lack' of tau suit weapons if you are rocking 5 riptides at the side.

You got a great looking model with a power sword but you really want to use it as a power axe? Let your opponent know and put an extra marker on the model as a reminder.
You got 4 librarians with force swords but you want to use them all as force axes? Let your opponent know and put an extra marker on every model as a reminder.
You got 4 librarians with force swords but you want one of them to use it as a force axe, another as a stave and another as lance, okay now you're making it a big difficult. If this setup is really worth it then go buy the bits or be creative with conversions.

Tau commander with a whole list of upgrades? Not a big deal because players are familiar with this kind of setup. Just show your armylist.
3 tau commanders with 3 different upgrade setups? Just put a pokerchips with small written list of upgrades near the models.

Use common sense.

I used to magnetize lots of options myself, as well, and I too got burned out on it. For the amount of time it takes to magnetize the model and the options, I would rather just have more models painted up than loose arms or weapons floating around my collection. It was fun to do, but after over 15 vehicles, 6 Dreadnoughts, and a couple dozen infantry, I would rather just have more models at this point. Anymore, if I magnetize, it is to make storage and transport of the model easier.

A "model" is a representation of something, typically in the context of an ideal representation. In our case as wargamers, the models are the central part of the hobby whether painting or gaming. Without the models, this hobby would not exist. When you are building your army, you select the army, formations, and units based on the combination of rules and aesthetics. This collection of rules is then represented by small figurines on bases made from various materials to play the game. To represent a Tactical Marine, you use a model. To represent an Obliterator, you use a model. To represent a Warhound Titan, you use a model. Any thing can be used to "represent" the unit or model profile from the rules. Sure, there are "official" model or bits that are sold for that purpose, but you don't have to use them. The closer you can get to the model's intended visual profile and base size, the better.

The only time that this will cause an issue is if their representations are causing confusion to your opponent; such as a model representing a Plasma Gun wielding Space Marine is modeled with a Melta Gun. So long as your opponent knows what each squad has, it shouldn't be a problem. Before I ever set up my units or models, I point out each squad to my opponent and let him or her know exactly what each squad has BEFORE the game starts. I have never had any problems yet with my opponents, though YMMV.

 Lance845 wrote:

How would you even model a puretide engram onto a battlesuit commander?

Sure, there are some options that can't really be easily represented physically, and that shouldn't really be a problem, any more than there would be any need to represent psychic powers on a model.


That's a far cry from 'The part I want doesn't come in this specific kit, so I shouldn't have to represent it' though. Your opponent isn't responsible for you choosing to use options that are harder to model.


WYSIWYG isn't about forcing you to buy stuff. It's about having enough respect for your opponent to not make the game unnecessarily confusing to play.

Or, Bike Squads not shipping with special weapons, in spite of the fact that 2 bikes can take 2 specials in the pack of 3 you get.

I had to buy a grav gun separately on Ebay. not cheap for one tiny piece of plastic. And i made my own combi. LOL.

 insaniak wrote:


WYSIWYG isn't about forcing you to buy stuff. It's about having enough respect for your opponent to not make the game unnecessarily confusing to play.

I appreciate this sentiment and fully agree with it. But the bad guy isnt the player. Its GW for making it so difficult to do.

Well, sure... GW could just restrict every unit to the options that are in their box. That would be fun...

 insaniak wrote:
Well, sure... GW could just restrict every unit to the options that are in their box. That would be fun...

Tactical Squads only having Flamers, Plasma Guns, Grav Guns, and Missile Launchers, unless you get the Blood Angels Tactical Squad, then you can have Heavy Flamers. Of course, this would be a good reason for Tactical Squads to have someone carrying Power Weapons and exotic pistols besides the Sergeant.

 insaniak wrote:
Well, sure... GW could just restrict every unit to the options that are in their box. That would be fun...

Or they could release the boxes with weapon sprues that have all the options.

 Lance845 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Well, sure... GW could just restrict every unit to the options that are in their box. That would be fun...

Or they could release the boxes with weapon sprues that have all the options.

That would require respruing a good portion of them... Not cheap, and then the prices go up.

 Lance845 wrote:
Or they could release the boxes with weapon sprues that have all the options.

That would require Devastators (as the obvious example) to have 4 of every heavy weapon. Plus all of the options available to the sergeant... Not going to happen.

Have a look at how many options the Tactical squad has. Again, not going to happen.

Sure, it would be great for every kit to come with every available option. But that's never been a thing, with GW, and it becomes increasingly less possible the more the range expands.



Having said that, what would be workable would be for them to create 'options' and 'weapons' sprues for each army, so that you could at least buy those for the extras you need rather than having to buy whole new kits.

May not be an issue next edition anyway, though. If 40K does go the AoS route, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see unit options drastically reduced.

 insaniak wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Or they could release the boxes with weapon sprues that have all the options.

That would require Devastators (as the obvious example) to have 4 of every heavy weapon. Plus all of the options available to the sergeant... Not going to happen.

Have a look at how many options the Tactical squad has. Again, not going to happen.

Sure, it would be great for every kit to come with every available option. But that's never been a thing, with GW, and it becomes increasingly less possible the more the range expands.



Having said that, what would be workable would be for them to create 'options' and 'weapons' sprues for each army, so that you could at least buy those for the extras you need rather than having to buy whole new kits.

May not be an issue next edition anyway, though. If 40K does go the AoS route, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see unit options drastically reduced.

As good as it would be if they did that with weapon sprues, if they did that, why would you ever buy those other kits? Why wouldn't you just buy a few of those and then just Tactical Marines? Why bother with Devastators or Sternguard? I think that's the real reason you'll never see that.

 Bi'ios wrote:
As good as it would be if they did that with weapon sprues, if they did that, why would you ever buy those other kits? Why wouldn't you just buy a few of those and then just Tactical Marines? Why bother with Devastators or Sternguard? I think that's the real reason you'll never see that.

Because I wanted a lot of Plasma Guns at the time. Metal Plasma Guns and Meltaguns used to be available by the blister, and the kits only came with one, if any.

Honestly as a Tau player I know the lack of weapons is frusterating. Cyclic ion rifles don't even come in the new kit. I just make them all plasmas and say all plasmas are cyclic ion rakers. My chaos termies, same issue. So if one has a combi melta then all have a combination melta and use them at the same time to limit confusion. But I agree some effort should be made if you want to have squads with different weapon options internal. Chaos havocs have same issue. Can't even model fifteenth because the models come pre fit with one of each weapon therefore when I pay points I either give them one of each or I make them all launchers and let my opponent know. Common sense is the rule IMO