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Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Seems we're getting our Khorn out of the way but I'm glad to see they are continuing the theme of combining the Chaos Factions into one tome.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/19/coming-to-the-mortal-realms-this-april/


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/19 19:38:21


 
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Looking forward to this if they can actually make khorne competitive against stormcast. Right now I don't feel that its a very fun game when those two factions meet up on the table... very one sided.

Node based campaign for my public 2017 campaign.

http://www.tga.community/files/file/31-the-siege-of-var-asai/
 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






 auticus wrote:
Looking forward to this if they can actually make khorne competitive against stormcast. Right now I don't feel that its a very fun game when those two factions meet up on the table... very one sided.


There aren't many matchups for Khorne to have fun with right now. Hopefully they'll give us some more mobility and some reliable source of Mortal Wounds.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
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840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Legion of Rusted Chains
2500 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains
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Made in es
Nasty Nob




Barcelona, Spain

I too hope they upgrade KBB. I remember that time I fought them with my ironjawz... goodness gracious, a unit of goregruntas deleted a third of his army!
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Yeah really as I look at the army the main thing that it is lacking badly is the ability to push out *edit: a SHED LOAD of * mortal wounds *edit: like stormcast and other armies have units that can do*

Because of that, the melee army gets out melee'd by anything that has the ability to push out a ton of mortal wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 18:12:29


Node based campaign for my public 2017 campaign.

http://www.tga.community/files/file/31-the-siege-of-var-asai/
 
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




England

I'm sure they'll put in a few new formations, but the real make or break will be the allegiance specific rule. Something that is entirely possible is Blood Tithe-esque rules from Khorne Daemonkin, which they may actually go with. I don't know how well that will go for summoning though, you know having to pay for summons and all that. Just speculation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/19 21:51:42


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Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Computer City

A massive unit of Bloodletters pumps out an insane amount of Mortal Wounds if buffed and whipped. Some top tournament players have picked it up recently. The only problem is it requires Sayl to throw the unit around the board, so I would say the most crucial thing needed in the new book is movement shenanigans rather than more options for Mortal Wounds output.

   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






 Bottle wrote:
A massive unit of Bloodletters pumps out an insane amount of Mortal Wounds if buffed and whipped. Some top tournament players have picked it up recently. The only problem is it requires Sayl to throw the unit around the board, so I would say the most crucial thing needed in the new book is movement shenanigans rather than more options for Mortal Wounds output.


Bloodletters are all well and good, but I'd like to be able to use Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers and not get laughed off the table.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
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840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Legion of Rusted Chains
2500 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains
2000 Sylvaneth of the Seelie Court
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Khorne has a lot of unit options but a comparatively tiny amount of ways to build a viable army. Aside from plastic flesh hounds this is the one release Khorne really needed.

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Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Computer City

 EnTyme wrote:
 Bottle wrote:
A massive unit of Bloodletters pumps out an insane amount of Mortal Wounds if buffed and whipped. Some top tournament players have picked it up recently. The only problem is it requires Sayl to throw the unit around the board, so I would say the most crucial thing needed in the new book is movement shenanigans rather than more options for Mortal Wounds output.


Bloodletters are all well and good, but I'd like to be able to use Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers and not get laughed off the table.


Russ Veal, the UK master, cites Blood Warriors as his favourite unit in the game and rate Bloodreavers too. I've heard they are really good but haven't got my Bloodbound on the table just yet.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





I've played 8 games of AoS with my Bloodbound against Stormcast. I'm on 5 wins to 3 losses. I don't know if that's bad or not but I'm happy with it. However I definitely feel like I'm playing as the underdogs so hopefully this book will be a boost. If they've combining the mortals and demons into one faction then I'll be doubly happy.
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

If the book requires you to max out one type of unit to be competitive, its not a good book.

So stating that khorne is just fine because Bloodletters can be a great unit if buffed up and then a certain special character exists as well doesn't really work for me.

Especially when you look at things like beastclaw and soul maces which push out exponentially more damage and don't require any external buffings due to their internal rules.

The army as a whole falls short on their damage output, which is why you don't notice them in many tournament events. I've not heard of any (i don't go to the UK so I can't speak for that but I have not heard of any UK players that are dominating with them either).

Pulling math - **without buffs** and the numbers represent the average wounds by a warscroll selection against all saves (so no save, vs 6+, vs 5+ etc then averaged)
Reavers do 3.46 wounds
Blood Warriors are at 5.81
Bloodletters are 5.01 or 5.79 if near a hero

Stormcast retributors are on par with Blood Warriors (good) but the things I see maxed out:
Retributors with starsoul maces 13.08 wounds


Beastclaw raiders 13.62 wounds

Significant difference. I suppose giving Khorne a unit that can do around 10 or so wounds a turn on average would be good enough to appease me.

Movement exploits would be a bonus since both the stormcast and the beastclaw raiders ALSO have that going for them as well whereas Khorne just gets to walk across the table praying to 6lb 4oz baby-khorne-jesus that they can make it into contact against a missile heavy opponent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 16:58:03


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I am guessing Slaughterpriests will become an important feature because the new prayers will provide Khorne with tools it doesn't otherwise have.

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[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





The new prayers, would they work like the current ones? Is it just an expanded list?
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Yeah the prayers could definitely do something. I'd like to see a mirror of what stormcast got. Chapter traits, artefacts, prayers, adjustments to points.

Give us someway to get our damage up there with what the stormcast can do.

I would definitely be ok if the heroes were centric to the army... though there is the little issue that my opponents will simply try and fire every missile weapon they have at my hero models whereas the stormcast and beastclaw just have their abilities baked in to the unit... but I'm ok with an army being somewhat more difficult to use just so long as its not just outclassed out of the gate period.

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Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





A prayer to summon demons in addition to unit buffs would be OK by me. Just as long as the two current ones remain. I've found them very useful. Nothing like pulling judicators hiding out at the back to within charge range of your skull crushers, never mind mortal wounds!

I'm ok with the characters taking centre stage too.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






 Bottle wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:
 Bottle wrote:
A massive unit of Bloodletters pumps out an insane amount of Mortal Wounds if buffed and whipped. Some top tournament players have picked it up recently. The only problem is it requires Sayl to throw the unit around the board, so I would say the most crucial thing needed in the new book is movement shenanigans rather than more options for Mortal Wounds output.


Bloodletters are all well and good, but I'd like to be able to use Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers and not get laughed off the table.


Russ Veal, the UK master, cites Blood Warriors as his favourite unit in the game and rate Bloodreavers too. I've heard they are really good but haven't got my Bloodbound on the table just yet.


Blood Warriors are one of my favorite units, too. They are amazing sculpts, fun to paint, have really fun fluff, and their No Respite rule is a lot of fun, but as auticus pointed out, their damage output is absolutely abysmal. It may be a little unfair to criticize Bloodreavers. They serve their purpose as cheap cannon fodder well enough, but they're really only good for one round of combat. The fact that one of our only sources of rending attacks is completely lacking a save means that you damn well better kill something turn one or two (assuming you can get into charge range that quickly), or you better be ready to fight from your back foot for the rest of the game.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
1750 Blood Ravens 5th Company
840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User





"I wish there was a way for this army to put out mortal wounds"

"Hey this unit puts out decent mortal wounds"

"I wish the units I liked did mortal wounds." and "Here's what they do vs a unit that completely outclasses them in point value."

I understand, it sucks having units that you like get stomped on from balancing issues, but... come on.
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Bloodletters don't put out the volume of mortal wounds that the stormcast units do.

Now if Bloodletters put out the volume of mortal wounds that the stormcast units do, I would concede your point.

Bloodletters are 5.01 or 5.79 if near a hero in terms of avg damage output per turn (including their mortal wound propensity)

Retributors with starsoul maces 13.08 wounds

Significant difference. Being able to do a token mortal wound or two is not the same as reliably dumping shed loads of them out unless the argument was "but you said MORTAL WOUNDS you didn't mention how MANY" in which case I suppose I spoke too lazily then. Edited a previous post to reflect that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/20 18:12:48


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Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






My argument wasn't the Khorne had no source of mortal wounds, but that the Bloodbound don't have a way to deal them consistently the way competitive armies can, and I believe this is one of the reasons Bloodbound aren't competitive. I'm hoping either a prayer or allegiance ability will give us that reliable source of mortal wounds.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
1750 Blood Ravens 5th Company
840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Legion of Rusted Chains
2500 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains
2000 Sylvaneth of the Seelie Court
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






 Furious241 wrote:
"I wish there was a way for this army to put out mortal wounds"

"Hey this unit puts out decent mortal wounds"

"I wish the units I liked did mortal wounds." and "Here's what they do vs a unit that completely outclasses them in point value."

I understand, it sucks having units that you like get stomped on from balancing issues, but... come on.
You made up a response and applied it to him. Auticus noted that mortal wound output is effectively restricted to one unit as opposed to multiple options of other factions, and that Bloodletters require more work to put out less mortal wounds compared to other armies making them a poor analogy anyways.

 auticus wrote:
Yeah the prayers could definitely do something. I'd like to see a mirror of what stormcast got. Chapter traits, artefacts, prayers, adjustments to points.

Give us someway to get our damage up there with what the stormcast can do.

I would definitely be ok if the heroes were centric to the army... though there is the little issue that my opponents will simply try and fire every missile weapon they have at my hero models whereas the stormcast and beastclaw just have their abilities baked in to the unit... but I'm ok with an army being somewhat more difficult to use just so long as its not just outclassed out of the gate period.
Having your heroes shot at can be somewhat advantageous; Khorne units have poor saves overall (Blood Warriors and Juggernaught cav being notable exceptions), whereas the heroes have decent to good saves (3+ on the Bloodsecrator is a godsend) so if regular shooting gets pointed at the heroes it can save a comparatively high number of troops from death. Of course if its mortal wound shooting that doesn't apply, but it's something.

On the more optimistic side, at least Khorne has Wrathmongers. Stormcast can't do that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 03:40:43


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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Computer City

Khorne have been doing well on the UK tournament scene in recent months. A tournament I went to in Cardiff in December was won by pure Bloodbound (Matt Lyons from the Black Sun Podcast).

Partners in Chaos was won with Khorne by Russ and Terry from Facehammer. Terry then went on to place 4th at Sheffield Slaughter with them.

Yeah they haven't won a prestigious event just yet, but remember Russ was almost the winner at Warlords with Bloodbound.

Now, lots of times these armies aren't pure Khorne, but you need to look at what units they are taking to see the weaknesses the list has, and it's not access to Mortal Wounds because Bloodletters perform so well.

Mainly the non-Khorne units are:
- Sayl the Faithless
- Warp Lightening Cannons


That tells you that what Khorne is missing is reliable ranged threat and reliable mobility, and this is what the book needs to add otherwise players will stick with Mixed Chaos in the same way BCR players don't play pure BCR at high levels but favour the "MooClan" mixed destruction list (Grots + Cows).

Thanks for crunching the Maths, Auticus, but you need to consider the buff units in there - compare 30 Bloodletters + Bloodsecrator to 10 Retributors (420pts vs 440pts).

I'm gonna fudge the maths as I am on the train, but 1/3 of the Bloodletter attacks mortal wound, so that's 20 Mortal Wounds of the bat, the next 1/3 get a chance to wound and damage as normal too. On top of that the unit is battleline which means a.) counts towards the tax and b.) in the new escalation they start 9" away from enemy territory.

On top of that the Bloodsecrator makes them immune to battleshock, making them a 30 wound tarpit plus the Bloodsecrator is buffing everything else in a 30" AoE too.

And then we get into the realms of double bloodsecrators (although possibly getting a nerf in the GHBII if SCGT17 is to judge by) plus a bloodstoker and any other synergy you want to squeeze in there like your general or Damned terrain. If you have a 3 pieces of terrain in your deployment zone (tourney standard) you have a 50/50 chance of one being Damned,. Those are pretty reliable odds over the course of a 5 game event to add even more utility to them (at this point half their attacks would be doing a Mortal Wound).

At this point you are doing so many Mortal Wounds with a battleline unit you are basically going to delete whatever you fling them into with Sayl. The opponent then has to deal with them while the rest of your army sits back all buffed up still. If you had a second unit of them (only another 300pts), you could fling them in next turn too.

Well, those are my reasons for why Bloodletters are amazing and why it isn't access to Mortal Wounds that is holding Khorne back (if they even are being held back). The "Bloodletter Bomb" is a talked about thing on the UK meta, mentioned recently on both Heelanhammer and Facehammer. And you know my stance previously on holding the opinion of Russ Veal in high regard. He is the UK master after all, and so if he is singing the praises of Bloodletters and Bloodwarriors I am inclined to believe him.

   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Well hopefully he shares his wisdom in a blog or something then.

Having to rely on Sayl the Faithless being in my list ruins that theme. And for allegiance traits and artefacts, Sayl the Faithless makes my army not able to take any of the khorne themed items that we will now have access to since it would break allegiance.

Bloodletters in hordes Mortal Wounding on 5+ is not a bad thing. But its kind of like a really good athlete up against another really good athlete, except one of them is juicing (stormcast).

I've seen variations of that list though it usually doesn't do so well here simply because all of the mortal wounds and shooting first go to erase the heroes in a couple of turns and then the rest of the units fall apart without the buffs that they require, which opposed to things like Beastclaw and Stormcast those abilities are simply baked into them without needing buffs.

Thats really one of the main primary differences. (I run two bloodsecrators and I struggle to keep them alive past turn 3 because they take the entire enemy armies' shooting and mortal wounds right off the bat)

So I agree with you... bloodletters are a good unit. But having an entire army book with one good unit does not make a good army. It makes it more obvious to min/max. Stormcast as an example have a few different strong builds that they can run.

So from an internal balanced discussion - I'd still like to see one of the non-demon units be able to have a decent reliable damage output that is not dependent on character buffs so long as killing characters is not so much a difficult thing.

I suppose we will see what they did next month.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 11:51:08


Node based campaign for my public 2017 campaign.

http://www.tga.community/files/file/31-the-siege-of-var-asai/
 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Computer City

You should listen to Facehammer, it is the best podcast in my opinion, both very very funny and also very insightful.

I agree it's not great having to add in Sayl where theme is concerned, which is exactly why the most important thing the book adds in is new mobility options to encourage players to not break allegiance for mixed chaos. Some abilities to do splash mortal wounds at long range is also necessary to replace the Warp Lightening cannons players are using. Both of these are very doable with the new priest prayers and the battletrait.

I have high hopes for this new book because I think it could make both a very thematic and also competitive army with just a few tweaks.

Skullreapers can also be a good source Mortal Wounds, but yes perhaps a few more options. I don't think they need another Mortal Wound powerhouse though because in my opinion Bloodletters are more than good enough. They might rely on Bloodsecrators, but that's no different to Kunnin Ruk relying on the character too.

   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Coming from a theme standpoint again though bloodletters are demons. That is another niggle. If you want to run a mortal themed army (I am assuming they will do liek they did with tzeentch so you'll have the demons and mortals separate) you are kind of up that river without a paddle.

Ranged output definitely is something that needs added, and/or something that gets us into combat faster instead of having to walk across the table taking it on the chin for a couple of turns.

Fortunately for me I get to do chaos dwarves this year so when I go back to my khorne army next year this will have been vetted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 12:50:43


Node based campaign for my public 2017 campaign.

http://www.tga.community/files/file/31-the-siege-of-var-asai/
 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Computer City

Hopefully they will allow for mixed Khorne armies - I thought with Tzeentch it was the choice of general that decided your battletraits but you could still take anything in the book without breaking allegiance. Have I got it mistaken? (I haven't looked through the book myself).

   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

It is but again if I want to run a mortal list and the only competitive choice are bloodletters then a couple mortal heroes backed by a horde of bloodletters is not really a mortal list to me. It is in essence a wide variety of flavors with only one flavor being used and the others discarded.

From a game sense it is a khorne army but from a thematic sense it is a mix of the most powerful items thrown together to give me a better advantage.

From a thematic standpoint from my perspective all types (demon, mortal, beast if they go that route) should have viable builds that can stand on their own.


Node based campaign for my public 2017 campaign.

http://www.tga.community/files/file/31-the-siege-of-var-asai/
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






The issue with Khorne isn't so much that they can't do well, it's that despite having a huge number of units to choose from there are only a few viable army builds that will do well. Perhaps more importantly in the casual, non-competitive scene the average Stormcast player has a notably easier time beating the average Khorne player. Were these two random armies it wouldn't be a huge issue, but since they are the poster boy foes and the starter set armies it's important that they balance against each other well. Also as Auticus noted, including even one non-Khorne unit breaks allegiance and means that isn't a Khorne army. It may be Khorne themed, but it's a Chaos army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 19:39:23


Looking for a balanced Age of Sigmar? Tired of your favorite unit gathering dust because it's bad in Matched Play? Want a discount for not bringing the best possible weapon option? Try Project Points Cost!

PPC points are easily swapped out with those of Matched Play and include all models, unit upgrades, battalions, and terrain warscrolls!

Check it out at: http://ageofwargamers.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in es
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Vigo. Spain.

Warhammer has always have a bad problem of poor internal ballance in factions.

That the army of the God of War that despise magic and ranged combat its only viable with a specific Forgeworld Sorcerer and with Skaven Artillery its a big red flag that something is wrong.
I'm with Auticus in this. We need a good internal balance to make all units viable, not against the same foes and all the time, but don't make a One-Trick Faction like the Kunnin Ruk and the Beastclaw Raiders.

I want variety! I don't expect perfect balance, but even the posibility to run 3-4 diferent list will be a huge improvement.

And I think that GW should relax in the importance of Mortal Wounds. That today a army need to make a good amount of Mortal Wounds or its just bad means that something that was meant to be "special" and "deadly" has become a necesity.

Having mortal wounds should be a plus. Now, not having them its just very bad.

Khorne don't need ranged damage, he need more reliable sources to make his meele troops... reach meele. And protect them from ranged attacks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 20:44:08


 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





They might update some of the warscrolls in the battletome and update the site later like they did with some of the Savage Orruks stuff.

Though I wonder if they might just lower costs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 21:17:25


 
   
 
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