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Made in us
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Washington State

Hey all. My buddy just got his GSC going on the table and of the few games ive played against them with my KDK I have gotten wrecked. I consider my army fairly competative. I run a big gore pack, and a slaughter cult with lots of bloodletters. Or sometimes Ill use a CAD to get in a heldrake.

My problems come from the cult ambush table. If he rolls lots of 6's I lose in combat to the sheer number of attacks. The other day I lost my Herald on the first turn. If he doesnt roll lots of 6's, I cant shoot him down because I pack very few guns in my list and most of them are close range. He also out summons me very easily. Bloodletters are MEQ killers but dont tear through hordes well. My khorne dogs seem to do most of the lifting. My big HQs get rended to death.

He typically runs the version of cults that is extremely horde like with lots of psykers for summoning and a few obsec trucks. He also gets double rolls on the chart due to a formation I think.

We tend to play semi competative lists mostly so I am not mad or ticked that he brings this list. Rather, id like to know where to go next to make this a better fight?

Thoughts?

Oh ya, most of my big stuff never make their points back. A heldrake killing a sub 100 point squad a turn is not enough.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Skaughtercult is really cool for the 4+ gain 1-3 buffs, but its not really competitive sadly.

Gore Pack is and so is the 6 Mech Formation.

Take more Walkers his melee against AV 12-14 Walks means his melee will do nothing much.

Might even try Skull Cannons

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Gorepack Bikers with Flamers is pretty cool.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

 thekerrick wrote:
Hey all. My buddy just got his GSC going on the table and of the few games ive played against them with my KDK I have gotten wrecked. I consider my army fairly competative. I run a big gore pack, and a slaughter cult with lots of bloodletters. Or sometimes Ill use a CAD to get in a heldrake.

My problems come from the cult ambush table. If he rolls lots of 6's I lose in combat to the sheer number of attacks. The other day I lost my Herald on the first turn. If he doesnt roll lots of 6's, I cant shoot him down because I pack very few guns in my list and most of them are close range. He also out summons me very easily. Bloodletters are MEQ killers but dont tear through hordes well. My khorne dogs seem to do most of the lifting. My big HQs get rended to death.

He typically runs the version of cults that is extremely horde like with lots of psykers for summoning and a few obsec trucks. He also gets double rolls on the chart due to a formation I think.

We tend to play semi competative lists mostly so I am not mad or ticked that he brings this list. Rather, id like to know where to go next to make this a better fight?

Thoughts?

Oh ya, most of my big stuff never make their points back. A heldrake killing a sub 100 point squad a turn is not enough.


Your army is not fairly competitive at all, not with bloodletters at least.

Maybe bring 3 soul grinders in a CAD with baleful torrent along with 1-2 heldrakes. Bubble wrap the soul grinders turn 1 so they don't get charged.

Your heldrakes can't be targeting some small random unit, you need to fly him over to roast the units that his magus (especially the one with summoning) and patriarchs are. Its seems like your targeting priorities are not that good in those games also.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Boston

It's a tough match up to be honest. Your best unit, a gore pack khorne dog is 16 points for 2 strength 4 attacks.

A GSC acolyte is paying 8 points for one wound and 3 attacks.

So basically your most efficient way of spending 16 points gets you 2 T4 wounds and 2 attacks. A GSC player spends that 16 points and gets 2 T3 wounds and 6 attacks.

That's not great for you.

However, you can rely on your T4 and (almost always) fnp to keep you alive. You'll trade very evenly with him point for point.

It's a matter of who can get the charge.

I don't know khorne daemonkin well enough but if you have anything that produces a bunch of I5 attacks that will murder GSC in short order. It's why assault units out of the eldar codex are so brutal against us.
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





How many points are you running? and what is he taking..

Sounds like atm he is doing Subterrain Onslught..


But what you do at deployment box yourself in then wrap your 20 bloodletters around your army, that way he has only 1 unit he can charge. then you can laugh your way to the bank with countercharge
   
Made in ru
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Not much you can do with your current list. They'll down the mechs with rending pretty easilly as they have a ton of s6 rending and all they need is a 4 sixes which they will get dut to having like 40 re-rollable attacks on the charge.

You can try spamming khornedogs buble-wrapping flamer bikers but he still has an upper hand if he rolls enough sixes and if he doesn't you're too bunched up to score points.

It's such a mismatch that without changing a lot of stuff all you can do is spread around and hope he doesn't roll 6-s at all.
   
Made in gb
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos






Have you considered allying in a lost-and-the-damned formation from traitor legions? A bunch of min-sized cultist units with flamers would help with killing his squishy models - particularly when they respawn on a 4+

Fully Painted Armies: 1600pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons

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Made in fi
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Boston

If you're trying to avoid beating him someone in the list building phase but instead in the game then general stuff against GSC.

They're squishy and don't have native fearless. Charge and win combats away from the fearless bubbles and you'll run down units left and right.

Along with this, kill the fearless bubble(patriarch) and you'll have a way easier time. Sometimes this can be easier said then done but usually a bunch of bolters or flamers will really put a lot of hurt on him.

If he overwhelms one side then try to get within 6 inches so he can't return to shadows. You can steal a whole turn on them that way.
   
Made in us
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Washington State

Just saw this thread blew up. Ill respond to a lot of these when I get home. Good ideas so far

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Denver, Colorado

Thoughts:

Are you forcing him to make fear tests? IIRC, few GSC units are fearless.

I think patricarch's may have a LD10 bubble, or something like that.

Also: There's some khorne chariot that fires a large blast, str 8, ignores cover blast that'll do some good work.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Thoughts:

Are you forcing him to make fear tests? IIRC, few GSC units are fearless.

I think patricarch's may have a LD10 bubble, or something like that.

Also: There's some khorne chariot that fires a large blast, str 8, ignores cover blast that'll do some good work.


Skull Cannon, I wouldnt "take" them but summon them, you can summon it and then shoot. If they melee its only the rends will matter and KDK still gets to strike in Melee.

I actually summon them a lot there have been games where i had 3 of them on the table before sense its 36" you can summon it in spots to shoot and force your opponent to out position themselves.

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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






A Protoss colony world

This matchup is one where I would think the Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster could do some work. If a blob of 20 Purestrains with a Patriarch charges him, he's done, but he'll take a few with him at least. Acolytes or Neophytes that charge him will lose badly, between Wall of Death on his flame attack plus his attacks at initiative 10. Plus I'm pretty sure they would need 5's to hit and only their rending 6's would wound.

I definitely second the Skull Cannon suggestion, but as mentioned above it is usually better to summon them if possible.

You might actually consider a Helbrute with Multimelta and a Heavy Flamer-equipped Powerfist. The Flamer can get the Wall of Death if the brute gets charged, and if he doesn't get charged it will do mean things to squishy hybrids. Again, the drawback is the good likelihood of getting rended out. Even better, take a Soul Grinder with Baleful Torrent instead! More points but way better than a Helbrute.

Just my 2 cents.

My armies (re-counted and updated for 8th Edition on 6/25/17, including usual wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~9100 | Blood Ravens Space Marines: ~800 | Space Wolves: ~400
Inquisition: ~120 | Officio Assassinorum: ~175 | Imperial Knights: ~Coming soon!
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Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Stormsurge blog | Imperial Knights: Renegade blog | Total models painted in 2016: 50 | Total models painted in 2017: 20 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels Inceptor Squad
I'm totally sick of seeing people use the word loose for lose. You "lose" a game when you don't win. If your clothes are too big they are loose. You don't loose a game unless you somehow release it from captivity. Get it right people! [/grammarnazi] 
   
Made in us
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Washington State

Its looking like grinders are going to be my main option. The flamer template will be great, rends wont hurt the front armor and his autocannons will only glance on 6s

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




KDK player here that has played against a fair share of GSC.

Hints of advice

- if your coming across horde armies with KDK, either reply with horde yourself or use tanky vehicles

- Blood host is better than CAD any day of the week for KDK, min slaughtercult is the way you want to do it

- Remember blood host can take up to 8 Soul grinders/ maulerfiends or both, also don't count out the gorepack aswell

- If you like bloodletters, i might suggest you look at the blood oath formations, the bloodied horde in there is lost and the damned but with deep striking daemons (precise DS daemons if you invest in some banners of blood)

- small units are you lifeblood for KDK, just like he has(more units = more blood tithes)

- Don't hesitate to include a lord of slaughter with that blood host (D axe or standard BT works nicely)

- blood tithe: Abuse the crap out of the first Blood tithe points (1-4) the one i woudn't reccomend is 1 cause it's situational but 3 and 4 should be your bread and butter.

- Summoning - if you are going to summon, skull cannon is priority, followed by bloodcrushers, then dogs (this would be the only time i would reccomend bloodcrushers)

- 7 and 8 are usually not worth the effort.

- Juggerlord with icon of corruption and goredrinker makes quick work of anything (even if he is I1)
- for juggerlord 7 is worth him doing, else leave it

- a normal bloodthirster who is your slaughtercult lord is scary in his own right, pair him with a D axe thirster and your asking for an ass whuppin

- always ask yourself this question 'does he have assault grenades?' if no then use cover and terrain, if yes use cover
   
Made in us
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Washington State

Lots of good advice there. I actually ran a D thirster who got popped on the first turn. The amount of rending claws that go before I can swing is insane. He did dedicate 3 squads who rolled on the ambush table. So i guess, why the d thirster vs such a weak army anyways?

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought






A Protoss colony world

 thekerrick wrote:
Lots of good advice there. I actually ran a D thirster who got popped on the first turn. The amount of rending claws that go before I can swing is insane. He did dedicate 3 squads who rolled on the ambush table. So i guess, why the d thirster vs such a weak army anyways?

In a TAC list, the D-thirster is a good choice. If you know you are facing GSC, leave it as it is overkill against pretty much anything they have and usually wont get to swing.

My armies (re-counted and updated for 8th Edition on 6/25/17, including usual wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~9100 | Blood Ravens Space Marines: ~800 | Space Wolves: ~400
Inquisition: ~120 | Officio Assassinorum: ~175 | Imperial Knights: ~Coming soon!
Tau Empire: ~5500 | Chaos Space Marines (various legions): ~5300 | Death Guard: ~800 | Chaos Daemons (all types): ~2200
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Stormsurge blog | Imperial Knights: Renegade blog | Total models painted in 2016: 50 | Total models painted in 2017: 20 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels Inceptor Squad
I'm totally sick of seeing people use the word loose for lose. You "lose" a game when you don't win. If your clothes are too big they are loose. You don't loose a game unless you somehow release it from captivity. Get it right people! [/grammarnazi] 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




also.... it is surprisingly good distraction carnifex.

KDK dont really care that you lost a D thirster as long as you dont come across heavy tanks.

but the counter charge to that is ohh so sweet

(plus the D thirster is VERY tanky if ur rolling hot with FnP
   
Made in fi
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Boston

The flame thrower and whip d thirster is super frustrating to deal with.

An ACTUAL CARNIFEX is far more annoying then a D thirster. So that's a pretty bad point sink against GSC. haha
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran




 thekerrick wrote:
Hey all. My buddy just got his GSC going on the table and of the few games ive played against them with my KDK I have gotten wrecked. I consider my army fairly competative. I run a big gore pack, and a slaughter cult with lots of bloodletters. Or sometimes Ill use a CAD to get in a heldrake.

My problems come from the cult ambush table. If he rolls lots of 6's I lose in combat to the sheer number of attacks. The other day I lost my Herald on the first turn. If he doesnt roll lots of 6's, I cant shoot him down because I pack very few guns in my list and most of them are close range. He also out summons me very easily. Bloodletters are MEQ killers but dont tear through hordes well. My khorne dogs seem to do most of the lifting. My big HQs get rended to death.

He typically runs the version of cults that is extremely horde like with lots of psykers for summoning and a few obsec trucks. He also gets double rolls on the chart due to a formation I think.

We tend to play semi competative lists mostly so I am not mad or ticked that he brings this list. Rather, id like to know where to go next to make this a better fight?

Thoughts?

Oh ya, most of my big stuff never make their points back. A heldrake killing a sub 100 point squad a turn is not enough.


A lot of players don't know how to react to GSC-armies. Are you willing to fly down with your helldrake to block a unit from charging? Are you willing to turbo boost your 3 bikes towards the enemy line to block half the GSC army from going into the shadows? Most players don't because it goes against their nature. But thats the kind of stuff you got to do to break down a GSC army. Be willing to sacrifice half your army to make sure the other half takes down the GSC because they're only Toughness 3/4 with a 5+ save. You block the first wave with bubble wrap (cheap cultist if you can..) and after that you counter-charge with everything a particular flank. Decide which units you want to sacrifice, use as speed bumb or beatstick. Don't summon khorne skull canon because that's not going to help you in close combat. You either give the whole army 'feel no pain' at the right counter-charge moment or bring in bloodcrushers or dogs. Be willing to push forward first turn (scout dogs) and move back after the GSC came in with cult ambush. This gives you room to manoeuvre and pick the right fights.

It's very hard for GSC to take down a Soulgrinder so I would at least add that to your list. Great speedbumb unit.



   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 vercingatorix wrote:
The flame thrower and whip d thirster is super frustrating to deal with.

An ACTUAL CARNIFEX is far more annoying then a B thirster. So that's a pretty bad point sink against GSC. haha



WHAT? NO!

Carnifex....
1) Need synapse
2) moves 6 not 12
3) Cant jink or fly to be hard to hit
4) Isnt fearless outside of synapse and has LD6
5) Fex WS is 3, B-thirster WS is 10
6) D-Thirster is a Daemon of Knorne, so Furious Charge and a 5++
7) Fex is initiative 2 B-thirster is I9

The only Cons fore Fex is D3 HoM instead of 1 and is cheaper.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 20:53:15


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:Harlequin: 3k
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Dakka Veteran





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 vercingatorix wrote:
The flame thrower and whip d thirster is super frustrating to deal with.

An ACTUAL CARNIFEX is far more annoying then a D thirster. So that's a pretty bad point sink against GSC. haha

7) Fex is initiative 2 D-thirster is I9

The only Cons fore Fex is D3 HoM instead of 1 and is cheaper.
Your higher Initiative is pointless when the axe forces you to go last no matter what.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 andysonic1 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 vercingatorix wrote:
The flame thrower and whip d thirster is super frustrating to deal with.

An ACTUAL CARNIFEX is far more annoying then a B thirster. So that's a pretty bad point sink against GSC. haha

7) Fex is initiative 2 D-thirster is I9

The only Cons fore Fex is D3 HoM instead of 1 and is cheaper.
Your higher Initiative is pointless when the axe forces you to go last no matter what.


Why take the D weapon one against GSC? OH I SEE, sry I meant to type "B" thirster, edit for confursion, I wouldnt take the D weapon one.

But out of 7 cons this is the only one that you see as a problem, still shows that a fex isnt scarier.

Edit, a Soul Grinder is much scarier than both to GSC, AV14 is extremely are to break.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 20:53:44


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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Soul grinder is 13/13/11 4HP

i should know.... i run 7 of them, not a fun list for my opponent to fight, but funny to watch
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





So the answers are

1. Summon the right units
2. Use Grinders
3. on Deployment use a unit or two spread out to screen the rest of the army from T1 assaults
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






mchammadad wrote:
Soul grinder is 13/13/11 4HP

i should know.... i run 7 of them, not a fun list for my opponent to fight, but funny to watch


I missed type, but still av 13 is extremely good against GSC. sense its a walker you dont care about 11 rear.

Edit: spelling and, I would love to run 7 of them lol that sounds MUCH more fun than 4-5 IK.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 23:02:35


14k+
10k+
6k
5k
:Harlequin: 3k
:Corsair: 3k 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

Get rid of the slaughter cult and see how many soul grinders with baleful torrent you can fit in.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




slaughtercult is needed for blood host

But you'll be able to get about 5 Soul grinders with bombardment

found in an 1850 pt list i can get 11 Soul grinders with a bit of formation kung fu

Min slaughtercult + 8 Soul grinders + forgehost

it's not a fun list to fight. And it's horribly slow

A list i have also tried is hellforge hunting pack

in specific 5 soul grinders with baleful torrent + 3 soul grinders + Brass scorpion

It's a very good list if you plan to run vehicle heavy list

Everything get angrier (+1 atk to everything when something dies)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/22 03:29:32


 
   
Made in ru
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






I've run soulgrinder spam list once. They're not amazing. Too slow. Too massive.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
I've run soulgrinder spam list once. They're not amazing. Too slow. Too massive.



This is true in every sense of the word

Might i suggest looking at maulerfiends.

They are not the best armour (12) but by god if your opponent cant take out at least 3 - 4 of these things they wreck face
   
 
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