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Hey, wanted to share with you the rules for heavily restricted tourney that's about to take place in Moscow. The rough translation is "CRAPtastic". The authors of restricted rules note that the main idea is not to balance the game as is (though it inherently happens) but to play with the models that haven't seen the light of day for quite some time in competitive play.

1450 pts. One CAD, no allies, no formations. Units listed in the restrictions are the only ones a player can include in his army. There might be some additional restictions to units.
(Max=x) means that only x amount of units can be included in the army.
* mark means you get an additional VP if you include this unit into your army
(-1) means you get -1 VP if you include this unit into your army

Here's the link to the restrict.


As for me, i really like the idea of it. I'd probably change some (-1) and * stuff - like it's odd that Badrukk doesn't have the (*) mark and kommandoes do. But take note that it's the 4-th tourney with this type of restricted rules from the authors, so it might happen that it's justified in such enviroment. The main plus is that the armies really feel interesting and there's at least some notable balance improvement - not just a switch of power. There's still place for some limited variety in listbuilding - actually a lot of it for armies like sm and csm. I even see 3 viable ig builds - more than they currently have with all their units avaliable

And the most important thing. It really brings back the feeling of a cosy fun game back from the good ol' days when the grass was greener and the young respected the elder

Looks like a lot of fun. Very fluffy. The game really shines when you stick to CAD & eliminate all the formation/allies shenanigans. I did find these odd, but perhaps there is a narrative or they want to not encourage leafblower list etc.

* must take Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
* cannot take Astropath, Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet
* max limit of 2 chimeras

Really dont like Wulfen arent there.

Would be easier for them just to go with 5th edition.

Commissar Benny wrote:

* must take Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
* cannot take Astropath, Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet

Yeah, this one's odd - there are some oddities here and there overall. But i guess it's for the catachan themed list.

Anywayz, if we're looking at ig, there are some interesting listbuilding options there.
You could play a gunline with Yarikk in a platoon, some vets behind aegis, probably inside chimera, 2 basylisks, a deathstrike or a leman russ. And still have some points for bullgryn screaners and rough rider counter-charges/scorers.
You could run a fast aggressive list with chimera vets, ds/mech tempestus with some specials, sentinels, a plane with ccs or tempestus ccs (if it's allowed).
You could do a mix and it'd still work - depending on what you take.

Personally, i'd do a mix. Yarikk with bullgryns, chimera vets, chimera tempestus, some tempestus or tempestus cs in a plane and a basylisk with a lr. A couple roughriders would also do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutallica wrote:
Really dont like Wulfen arent there.

Would be easier for them just to go with 5th edition.

I'd not mind a unit of wuffen (max 5) if they get -1 and no upgrade options. They're still a very strong unit - especially when run with a named wolflord to tank for them.

 koooaei wrote:


I'd not mind a unit of wuffen (max 5) if they get -1 and no upgrade options. They're still a very strong unit - especially when run with a named wolflord to tank for them.

Without AP2 and some 3+ invulns granted by the shields they would be worse than blood claws.

This is strange.

Is Karamazov still part of the Grey Knights in Russia?

Atleast just a single squad of wulfen with with whatever upgrades you need. They are too iconic for Space Wolves to miss out on, I remember 5th edition space wolves (razor/rhino greyhunter spam, with Longfang) So boring xD

NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is strange.

Is Karamazov still part of the Grey Knights in Russia?

They're combined all in one army. Same with mechanicus and...another mechanicus. And ig with special forces ig.

I'll go pack up my imperial knight and renegades army.

Also I didn't know forge world was banned.

 koooaei wrote:

As for me, i really like the idea of it. I'd probably change some (-1) and * stuff - like it's odd that Badrukk doesn't have the (*) mark and kommandoes do. But take note that it's the 4-th tourney with this type of restricted rules from the authors, so it might happen that it's justified in such enviroment. The main plus is that the armies really feel interesting and there's at least some notable balance improvement - not just a switch of power.

That is generally what happens when you reduce the meta to a few dozen people, most of whom aren't trying to break the game - things "look" balanced.

What breaks the game is hundreds of players trying to break the game and sharing information.

The fact that the organizers are tweaking the system (just like WMH) explicitly shows that there are imbalances and that they are trying to fix them.

Yes, there sure are imbalances but they're much more manageable with 100 units rather than with 1000

 koooaei wrote:
Yes, there sure are imbalances but they're much more manageable with 100 units rather than with 1000

That is your impression because there are not enough data points to confirm the existence of outliers which are totally breaking the game, despite it being reduced to 100 units.

30 people trying to break a 100 unit game over the course of 3 tournaments gets you less deep than 3000 people trying to break a 1000 unit game over the course of several years with updates, and at least a dozen+ tournaments in each micro-version (complete set of codices + BRB + FAQ).

There's another aspect that if you somehow manage to break a game with a landraider and a couple termies and make it unplayable, it gets fixed in the next iteration of the rules.

Please note, this restrict is so that you could field your possessed or a landraider and not feel handicapped for doing so. People sure do have different understanding of what balance is.

Personally i feel more comfortable with a game with 100 units and such limitations rather than 1000 units and power levels so varying, you could just give up to not waste time if you meet something like an elf scatbike + wk spam while you have a bunch of footslogging imperial guardsmen with leman russes.

I'm sharing this stuff cause when i saw this rules i emidiately got the feeling that i want to play such games running my orks. I didn't get this feeling when i was invited to an upcoming tourney with the only restriction being: 3 detachments max, cad and decurions count as 2. Means i can't even field my regular highpoint ork list cause it features double cad and orks can't ally with orks, and if i want to run bully boyz, i can't take a cullexus assassin or sisters of silence to have a chance. And i know for sure there's going to be a magic ravenwing deathstar, another magic ravenwing deathstar, magic csm deathstar, magic sm deathstar, magic daemon deathstar and scatbike + WK spam list with some magic in it.

It looks like a fun format. Seems a bit harsh in places but I suppose everybody could say that. For tyranids they should allow the warrior prime as HQ, but never mind. If this was a fairly regular event I'd be tempted to buy a swarmlord and some tyrant guard for it, probably some genestealers too

Great concept anyway

I get the feeling tau is very unpopular with those that wrote this list... they even restricted the basic fire warrior and made it so the main sources of anti AV14 are either locked into a 3 man bodyguard squad (If you take fusion blasters) or you suffer -1VP for taking hammerheads. even broadsides have their weapon option locked... the only thing you can do is bring lots of stealth suits.

For Necron:

Add an addendum that when taking Trazyn Infinite, they must take a "Necron Lord" with no Artifacts. This will at least let the player using Trazyn a chance to use his Surrogate Hosts (when Slain, can replace a Non-Named Necron Character) ability and fills the HQ slots.

I think BA have a serious chance of winning this

Tristanleo wrote:
I get the feeling tau is very unpopular with those that wrote this list... they even restricted the basic fire warrior and made it so the main sources of anti AV14 are either locked into a 3 man bodyguard squad (If you take fusion blasters) or you suffer -1VP for taking hammerheads. even broadsides have their weapon option locked... the only thing you can do is bring lots of stealth suits.

What's wrong with stealth suits? They're a solid choice here. Also sniper drones. And there are still crysis bodyguards w/o -1. Note that there's only ever one av14 per army. And vehicle amount is uite limited overall.

 Brutallica wrote:
wulfen...iconic for Space Wolves

I'm probably missing something but the iconic space wolf image seems to be vikings. And wolfen are a new unit. There was something about the wolfkin banner (iirc) though. Yep, there was some fluff about them growing extra hair and going insane but all the wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff is relatively new.

They're just too good and too often seen on board. That's why they weren-t included. Just take a look at eldar: no windriders, no farseers, no wk, no warpspiders. It's just a way to inspire taking rare units without re-writing a ton of stuff for the existing ones.

 koooaei wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
wulfen...iconic for Space Wolves

I'm probably missing something but the iconic space wolf image seems to be vikings. And wolfen are a new unit. There was something about the wolfkin banner (iirc) though. Yep, there was some fluff about them growing extra hair and going insane but all the wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff is relatively new.
.

Actually the original wulfen were very old metal models, I think they were from 2nd edition. The point with SW is that without their wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff they're just space marines painted in grey and yellow. The units that make SW actually SW are wulfen, thunderwolves, fenrisian wolves and some of their dreads.

 koooaei wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
I get the feeling tau is very unpopular with those that wrote this list... they even restricted the basic fire warrior and made it so the main sources of anti AV14 are either locked into a 3 man bodyguard squad (If you take fusion blasters) or you suffer -1VP for taking hammerheads. even broadsides have their weapon option locked... the only thing you can do is bring lots of stealth suits.

What's wrong with stealth suits? They're a solid choice here. Also sniper drones. And there are still crysis bodyguards w/o -1. Note that there's only ever one av14 per army. And vehicle amount is uite limited overall.

I don't have a problem with taking them, it just feels like the Tau list is shoe-horning you into taking them and aside from the Crisis bodyguard, they're your only other source of decent anti-armour considering the -1VP Hammerhead. You don't even suffer -1 for land raiders and they can take 2 Twin linked lascannons. also, as before, why limit the tau infantry to max 5 in a unit and max 2 squads?

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
wulfen...iconic for Space Wolves

I'm probably missing something but the iconic space wolf image seems to be vikings. And wolfen are a new unit. There was something about the wolfkin banner (iirc) though. Yep, there was some fluff about them growing extra hair and going insane but all the wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff is relatively new.
.

Actually the original wulfen were very old metal models, I think they were from 2nd edition. The point with SW is that without their wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff they're just space marines painted in grey and yellow. The units that make SW actually SW are wulfen, thunderwolves, fenrisian wolves and some of their dreads.

Than i'm wrong. Don't know them well enough - especially the old stuff. Sorry for that.

Anywayz, there are still plenty of options for quite strong builds there. Termies/wolfguards or even mellee greyhunters/blood claws in a landraider, skyclaws/swiftclaws with harald deathwolf, Njal Stormcaller - one of the few avaliable psychers and a good one, something mellee in a wolfy stormraven thing - which is a very formitable unit now. Lots of interesting options - not just thunderwolf + mages spam.

Personally i'm not against thunterwuffs or wuffen but, once again, the idea of this thing is to see something rare. Those you can see in every first spacewolf army now.

I'd add some extra options here and there. No harm in adding wuf cavalry if they're just 3 guyz without gear or wuffen if they're just 5 without gear. Giving them all the current codex options will just make them auto-include which is a bad thing. Power creep is what made a codex containing 30 units only field 4-5 of them.

A few oddities. Here's my thoughts on each army that I have an understanding of:

#1 - Overall:
Why are the only HQ options special characters? I understand not wanting to have the same ol' Librarian/Farseer/Sorcerer/Warboss/etc, but there are LOTS of HQ options that people rarely pick. Spiritseers, Tyranid Primes, Dark Apostles, etc. are all VERY rarely used. Also, it's a bit confusing that a * means +1, but -1 means -1. Just make +1's and -1's.

#2 - Necrons:
Just surprised they don't get a max=1 dedicated transport. I know it shows up lots, but it really is a great model.

#3 - Chaos Space Marines:
I don't think Typhus should be a (-1). I personally don't see him or Ahriman too much, but at least for Ahriman I understand because he's a level 4 psyker. Typhus has to roll one of his powers on the Nurgle table, so it's hard for using him as anything other than really what he's designed as. Abbadon should be a +1 because he's so bad. Also, no Kharne? Really?

#4 - Eldar:
Give the Eldar Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and Fire Dragons at -1, with a max of 1 unit and a max of 5 models. Fire Dragons are short range, and if you get burned by them it's kind of your own fault. Dark Reapers are good at taking on 3+ save stuff, but aren't overly strong against even the lightest of vehicles, so there's ways around them. Swooping Hawks are quite good against vehicles, but they die very fast when exposed.

#5 - Dark Eldar:
They suffer enough. Let them have their Warriors. Maybe with a max cap of 1 unit.

#6 - Orks:
Are perfect.

#7 - Tyranids:
Put the same restriction on Termagants as Ork Boys. Ripper Swarms shouldn't be a +1 either, since they show up whenever Tyranids don't take the explosive big bomb spores from Leviathan. Why no Broodlord? You need Genestealers already to even have him, and Genestealers are terrible in the Tyranid Codex (though great in the Genestealer Cult codex). The only reason they show up so often in people's lists is because that player got them for cheap or because they've been playing since 2nd/3rd edition when Genestealers weren't terrible.

#8 - Genestealer Cults:
Why the hate for their vehicles? If anything, Genestealer Cult does better with fewer vehicles. But it's such a limited list of units that I understand feeling bad for restricting them. I'd suggest making the Purestrain Genestealers (max=2, max of 10 models per unit). Acolyte Hybrids should be max of 3 units per army. Leman Russ should be max of 2, rather than 1. Remove cap from Chimeras, because they're just Guard Chimeras. Every vehicle here except the Leman Russ can be taken down with mere bolters, S4 close combat attacks, and krak grenades most of the time.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
wulfen...iconic for Space Wolves

I'm probably missing something but the iconic space wolf image seems to be vikings. And wolfen are a new unit. There was something about the wolfkin banner (iirc) though. Yep, there was some fluff about them growing extra hair and going insane but all the wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff is relatively new.
.

Actually the original wulfen were very old metal models, I think they were from 2nd edition. The point with SW is that without their wolfy-wolf-bark-bark stuff they're just space marines painted in grey and yellow. The units that make SW actually SW are wulfen, thunderwolves, fenrisian wolves and some of their dreads.

If you're talking about the wulfen that were released during Armageddon during 3rd edition, they were supposed to be the long lost SW 13th Company and they were retconned. I'd still agree with Koooaei and say that SW were all about vikings first before they made them into angry Wolfy McWolffaces with wolf axes riding wolves side by side with their wolfy marines who used to be put to sleep before GW decided to make them tabletop units.

So basically no psychic phase, seems like very limited MCs if any allowed.

There are still some psychers there. Chaos daemons, csm, space wolves and grey knights have access to psychers. Just no wizard galore like in regular magehammer. They're supposed to be rare, aren't they.

 Yarium wrote:


#1 - Overall:
Why are the only HQ options special characters? I understand not wanting to have the same ol' Librarian/Farseer/Sorcerer/Warboss/etc, but there are LOTS of HQ options that people rarely pick. Spiritseers, Tyranid Primes, Dark Apostles, etc. are all VERY rarely used. Also, it's a bit confusing that a * means +1, but -1 means -1. Just make +1's and -1's.

There are a couple reaons for it. Firstly, there's a large number of mediocre special characters so rarely seen on the table in current meta that it's really cool to field them and see what they can do in a restricted meta - some of them are great here, others still not but they at least become playable. The second reason is that there's SO many gear options for generic characters that it's impossible to balance them out. Including relics. That's one of the reasons you don't see all those special characters in the first place. Cause generic ones with al lthe best undercosted gear are simply better. So, i think it's fine to stick to named HQ - there are some exceptions, however - like cadre fireblade or daemon princes for kdk. It might be feasible to allow more characters but it would require some limited gear sets. For example, i'd love to be able to field all the csm legions but atm it's impossible to do without losing legion rules. So, an un-named hq like a footslogging lord without access to relics would be great. But as i've said before, it's wip. Hopefully, authors would address this issue. As for me - i'm planning to run some games and, heck, even a small tourney using this rules. And i see no reason to not tweak a couple things here and there and see how it goes. The base set is solid allready.

 Yarium wrote:

#2 - Necrons:
Just surprised they don't get a max=1 dedicated transport. I know it shows up lots, but it really is a great model.

Well, technically, there is a limit there. The overall rules (that i haven't initially linked cause they're in russian and than just forgot about them, sorry) state that only 1 flyer and av14 model allowed per army. IIRC, only warriors can have arks as dedicated transports, so 2 arks max. And immortals can have a flyer transport. Basically, 3 transports max, one of which is a flyer. Not so bad. Monolyth is not exactly a transport but can be used as a portal for something like lychguard or a block of warriors/immortals with a named lord. Which is quite thematic and would look cool.
I do agree with Draco765 about adding a generic necron lord with limited gear options just to make Trazyn's special rule work.

 Yarium wrote:

#3 - CSM:
I don't think Typhus should be a (-1). I personally don't see him or Ahriman too much, but at least for Ahriman I understand because he's a level 4 psyker. Typhus has to roll one of his powers on the Nurgle table, so it's hard for using him as anything other than really what he's designed as. Abbadon should be a +1 because he's so bad. Also, no Kharne? Really?

Typhus is beastly in this meta, trust me. Not only he's a tough beatstick but also a potent psycher - one of the very few you'll meet on the table - and also a leader of a tough-as-hell deathguard legion. They'd be quite difficult to deal with. Oh, he also allows to get some zombies on the table. He is definitely strong here.
As for Abaddon, he is also a leader of the legion and granted there's very limited amount of good inv saves, no 2++, no reliable way of getting re-rollable invul saves for others than sob crusaders, not that many ap2 stuff floating around and quite limited access to invisibility, he's going to be juite potent. Also, landraiders are now...if not amazing but good at very least. And abaddon + retinue in a landraider with endless hatred and preferred enemy marines will kick all sort of ass.
Kharn...yep, i think he should be included with -1. Not that he's that broken but he's a very potent fighter and seen on the table quite regularly allready. He also gives access to world eater legion bonus rules - fearless, adamantium will (which is going to be good in this limited wc meta) and furious charge.
As i've allready stated, i'd like to see, and will certainly try it out in our test games whenever i get the chance, some un-named characters with limited gear for legions w/o avaliable special characters. But than, it would be difficult to finally see Huron or Fabius Bile on the table with all the free legion rules. Needs extra thought.

 Yarium wrote:

#4 - Eldar:
Give the Eldar Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and Fire Dragons at -1, with a max of 1 unit and a max of 5 models. Fire Dragons are short range, and if you get burned by them it's kind of your own fault. Dark Reapers are good at taking on 3+ save stuff, but aren't overly strong against even the lightest of vehicles, so there's ways around them. Swooping Hawks are quite good against vehicles, but they die very fast when exposed.

I'd not mind those units in min sized squad. Not sure about fire dragons though. They're trying to make landraiders and leman russes formitable once again. And Eldar allready have one of the strongest firepower - even with this limitations.

 Yarium wrote:

#5 - Dark Eldar:
They suffer enough. Let them have their Warriors. Maybe with a max cap of 1 unit.

Yeah, no warriors is a miss. I agree here. 1 unit is good. Let's finally see some wyches.

 Yarium wrote:

#6 - Orks:
Are perfect.

I'd personally like to see a 60 boy count limitation - just to be able to create a more meaningful horde with Facerippa. Also, i see no reason why Badrukk and kans don't get * (+1). And +1 to kommandoes with being able to take more than 1 unit is wierd - i'd limit them to 1 unit. They're really not that bad in min units with special weapons.

 Yarium wrote:

#7 - Tyranids:
Put the same restriction on Termagants as Ork Boys. Ripper Swarms shouldn't be a +1 either, since they show up whenever Tyranids don't take the explosive big bomb spores from Leviathan. Why no Broodlord? You need Genestealers already to even have him, and Genestealers are terrible in the Tyranid Codex (though great in the Genestealer Cult codex). The only reason they show up so often in people's lists is because that player got them for cheap or because they've been playing since 2nd/3rd edition when Genestealers weren't terrible.

I'm not very familliar with nids - can't comment here.

 Yarium wrote:

#8 - Genestealer Cults:
Why the hate for their vehicles? If anything, Genestealer Cult does better with fewer vehicles. But it's such a limited list of units that I understand feeling bad for restricting them. I'd suggest making the Purestrain Genestealers (max=2, max of 10 models per unit). Acolyte Hybrids should be max of 3 units per army. Leman Russ should be max of 2, rather than 1. Remove cap from Chimeras, because they're just Guard Chimeras. Every vehicle here except the Leman Russ can be taken down with mere bolters, S4 close combat attacks, and krak grenades most of the time.

They're probably trying to avoid parking lots for others than ig - and even than, ig only has 2 chimeras/tauroxes, a leman russ and up to two artillery pieces. I don't know much about gsc so i can't judge here. They seem to allready have kick-ass units and special rules. Not as reliable w/o 2d6 ambush but still great for such games.

We've played a game with this restrictions.
I've tried out eldar with
Maugan Ra, avatar, 2 wraithlords, 2*3 shining spears, 3*10 guardians with platforms, 2 vipers in a squadron and 6 striking scorpions with a claw exarch.

My opponent fielded his tank heavy ultramarines:
A squadron of 3 lazpreds with Cronus, a squadron of 3 hb+ac preds, 3 squadrons of 3 speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters and a couple bolter scout squads.

In the end, he killed all but 1.5 guardian squads, Maugan ra, one wraithlord and a couple shining spears that got bogged down in scouts for the whole game. His MVP was, unsurprisingly, a lazpred squadron with cronus that downed my 2 monstrous creatures without much trouble, finished off striking scorpions, killed lots of guardians, including a weapon platform and generally denied me access to his deployment zone cause i wouldn't be able to footslog in the open vs such firepower. His bolter preds would have been even more devastating if not for the deployment mistake - he hid them a bit too good and i used terrain to minimise incoming fire. Speeders were fine - decently killy but quite squishy. He really lacked more durable fire magnets that game.

Eldar killed everything but the Cronus predator squadron. MVP were striking scorpions - they've wrecked 3 heavy bolter predators with a help of avatar's rage and furious charge, killed scouts and managed to take a few lazcannons off Cronus before going down. Footslogging guardians were ok. Run + charge is a great thing and weapon platforms are quite decent. Maugan Ra is interesting, though overpriced for regular games, he was good here. Killed 3 speeders and gave fearless to guardians when avatar went down.

Eldar had a tiny bit more points left on board - mainly due to Maugan Ra and a scatter laser wraithlord that was too afraid to show up from behind the ruin after his brightlance pal got wrecked with lazcannons in a matter of seconds. And as i was playing offensively and controlled more flags across the game, i went ahead on maelstorm, so eldar got a victory there. Could have easilly gone 180 degrees if he got 1-st turn or decided to ds speeders or got the heavy bolter squadron bauble-wrapped. They'd really wrecked my squishy dudes if they got to shoot for more than a turn. But striking scorpions changed the course of a game there.

Next one will probably be Abaddon in a landraider supported by chosen and termies or footslogging deathguard - can't choose yet.

They clearly have very specific idea of the kind of armies they want to see, fine for the points lvl given. Also it's not about bringing underpowered stuff but more forcing you to use underused (and mostly underpowered) stuff.

The next game was Abaddon + termies in LR, melta chosen in rhino, 2 maulerfiends, forgefiend and warp talons vs the same tank list with atermies and a demolisher instead of hb pred squadron. This time sm got 1-st turn and exploded a landraider + wrecked a chosen rhino pinning them. Even though csm had literally 1/2 of the army by their first turn, they managed to deal decent damage with fiends and talons but in the end weren't lucky enough to change the outcome. Lost by 1 VP. But it could have been different with a bit more luck - if only Abaddon could make a charge to finish off the speeders, CSM would have won. But it was still a close fun game.

Next one would be either nurgle csm or orks.