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I've had a really rough time with my army and I am not exactly sure where I am going wrong. This is what I've got in my collection so I was wondering what the most efficient combination of these units would be?

Lords of War:

Gulliman

Fellblade

HQ

Terminator Praetor
2 Chaplains
Master of Signals
Moritat
Terminator Librarian
Deimos Rhino

Elites

10 Cataphracts power fists and chain fists
10 Tartaros power fists and chain fists
10 Invictari Axes
10 Destroyers
10 Invictari Thunder Hammers
3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts

Troops

3 blobs of 20 tacticals
2 blobs of 20 sword breachers
20 Volkite Caliver (the 30'' one)

Heavy Support

Vindicator with laser destroyer
Plasma Predator Squadren
4 Land Raider Phobos
Spartan
Deredeo with auto cannons
10 Missile Launchers
10 Lascannons

Ideally I don't want to buy anything else for the army. Basically I tend to get outgunned and out classed in assault.

What have you been running as your list out of these models? And how have you been using them?

Okay...... define "outgunned" and "outclassed in assault" - for example, massed power sword wielding breachers in land raiders should be hard to stop.....albeit bouncing hard off 2+ saves. A lot depends on what the armies you are losing to look like.

You look like you have enough heavy weapons to offer a pretty decent gunline, so Im surprised you're getting outshot all the time.

I think the question with your UM (and probably EC) isn't your list, but what you're playing against and how you're playing your lists.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I think the question with your UM (and probably EC) isn't your list, but what you're playing against and how you're playing your lists.

I would agree with this, considering you have 2 threads asking the same question for 2 armies, i think we should figure out what you're up against and how you are playing your army then see how your army can counter or improve.

Okay as regards the players I usually fight against:

Iron Warriors gunline army - Usually based around 3 Phosphex launchers, three squads of Iron Havocs, Sicaran/Siege Land Raider/Fire Raptor, usually ten Kataphracts in a Storm Eagle. Handful of additional troops usually either an assault squad or a breacher squad. Also likes to take Castalax. Has a Shadowsword whose D weapon counters the Fellblade.

Mechanised Iron Hands - Use outflank with land raider equipped terminators, has access to lots of siege and deredeo dreadnoughts.

Raven Guard - Lots of drop pod infantry, two special Storm Eagles and a seeker squad in a land raider. Load of recon marines. Also has the special jump infantry unit. Veteran squads with rending.

Dark Angels - Praetor, Primus Medicae, 10 Kata death star in Spartan. Two Kheres dreads. Few vindicators. Glaive. Number of tactical and veteran squads in drop pods.

Night Lords - Force of assault marines and large number of terror squads, small terminator squads in land raiders, uses a lot of outflank

Salamanders - Primus Medicae with praetor and 10 Kata. 15 breachers with an apothecary. Chaplain with jetbike squad. Command Squad with Praetor with Thunder Hammer and immunity to instant death. Sicaran Venator. Laser destroyer vindicator. 5 Pyroclasts. Rending veterans.

Other Salamanders - Praetor, Primus Medicae, 10 Firedrakes in a Spartan. Siege dread. Two Kheres. Few tactical squads in rhinos. 10 Pyroclasts with a chaplain.



As for my order of battle I tend to always take three blobs of 20 tacticals and build the army around that. I'll either build a heavily mechanised assault force or a static gunline army. Usually its a mix. Invictari, Destroyers and Breachers go into land raiders and attempt to rush the enemy. The Spartan almost always houses ten Kata and Guilaman if I use him. Otherwise my heavy support squads and tanks try to hunker down and trade fire whilst my tacticals and contemptors act as a shield in case anything gets too close. I'll usually keep any assault units like my invictari back in cases like this. When I have used the Fellblade its been good, but only if a D weapon isn't in the table and only when the opponent brings a lot of 3 plus armour. Gulliman, I've used him twice and he got wrecked by Castallax the first time after his bodyguard got shot to pieces. The second time they killed the castallax but then the bodyguard got shot to pieces and ten terminators dropped out of a plane and dog piled a 2 wound Gulliman.

Usually any mechanised assault is put down by shooting or finds itself bouncing off the enemies assault units.

My gunline army has a lot more success. But, my opponents have lots of ways of getting in my face or wisely shoot away my anti tank units and then quickly mop up the rest of the units.

Basically the reason I am asking about force composition is that I never feel like my army puts out the same fire power as my opponents and my assault units with a few exceptions under perform. I charge forward I die. I stay still and I die.

BTW its NEVER been a case of objectives. 8/10 games have come down to being all but tabled by turn 3 - 4 and suffering such huge losses that I am basically out of the fight. The closest games I have had were against the Night Lords guy and the Dark Angels guy because I lucked out with my Fellblade taking out his Spartan and death star unit.

Okay had a 4k battle on Sunday against Death Guard.

I took -

Praetor with P fist and Iron Halo
master of signals
damocles
9 Veterans with power swords

Spartan with 10 Kata

3 blobs of 20 tacticals
2 volkite rifle squads
1 melta squad

Deredeo
1 Laser Destroyer Vindicator
Plasma Predator Squadren

Enemy army:

Praetor
Siege Master

10 kata
Quad squad with phosphex
Destroyer team in rhino with 2 rad launchers

3 blobs of 20 tacticals with apothecary
10 flamers in rhino

Tarantula with lascannons

2 leviathans
10 lascannons
10 missile launchers

Turn 1

So the battle was on an 8 by 4 board split diagonally and the one where you count objective up at the start of your turn and take the total at the end. The game went 17 to 4. The Death Guard player took first turn and deployed his infantry behind some big line of sight blocking terrain where they had three objectives. They then proceeded to delete a 20 man tactical blob which I had wanted to hold onto an objective in my deployment zone. He then had his tarantulas destroy one plasma predator, moved his rhinos forward with smoke launchers. Both leviathans killed a volkite squad and a few tacticals. Lascannon fire immobilized the Spartan.

In my turn I fired my orbital bombardments and killed a handful of tacticals. Fired my plasma, vindicator, volkites and deredeo at the rhino with the flamers. He made all of his 4 plus cover saves. I moved one of my tactical blobs onto an objective in my deployment zone. The terminators disembarked and advanced towards the middle objective held by the tactical squad I bombarded.

Turn 2

The opponent moved his missile launcher squad, leviathans, and destroyers forward who disembarked. The flamer team dropped out in front of the volkites. His phosphex killed 6 Kataphracts. The lascannons destroyed the Spartan. 3 volites died. Half the second tactical squad was killed by destroyers and leviathan gunfire.

In response I use the tactical squad on the far objective to kill the last tarantula. My plasma predators killed the flamer team and rhino on my left flank. My volkites and deredeo killed the rhino and destroyer team on my right flank. One kataphracti died advancing through the phosphex.

Turn 3

My opponent moved forward with both leviathans. The Phosphex destroyed the second volkite team. Both leviathans killed three terminators. Bolter fired from the middle squad was ignored as my opponent pulled back with that tactical squad. He moved his missile launchers forward and knocked hull point off a plasma predator.

My plasma predators shot at the middle tactical squad and killed most of them forcing the squad to retreat and allowing the terminator to claim the objective. My melta squad and deredeo failed to stop the leviathan as they were too far away. My Vindicator killed a Kataphract who had moved too far forward.

Turn 4:

Phosphex and Leviathan killed the metlagun squad and what was left of the second tactical blob. My terminator was killed by a Praetor and another tactical blob. His rocket team destroyed my predator squadron.

My Deredeo destroyed one of his leviathans.

Turn 5:

Nothing of note happened.

Basically a completely one sided fight in which he was able to effortlessly destroy my units and I was never in a position to shoot back. A ton of LOS blocking terrain stopped me from bringing my guns onto the third objective which I was trying to contest. As you can tell I was fighting a handful of units here and most of the Death Guard army was barely involved for most of the game.

Frankly I am really disillusioned with this game. 4 units should not be able to table an entire army by themselves. I shouldn't be forced to take Dreadclaws, rhinos, Quad guns and Apothecaries to be able to avoid rubbish like this.

60 tactical marines! Plus another 30 in tactical support squads! Blimey. I'd say you need to reduce the amount of tactical chaff. Reading through the last battle, they were just mown down mercilessly. A single vindicator laser destroyer won't put out enough firepower on its own. The predator executioners sounded like they were doing most of the work in regards to firepower.

In general, you've got a ton of troops but I'd say not enough of the high firepower units to thin the enemy out. You're going to have to adapt and not just field walls of bodies and hope they survive a Typhon blast or phophex. Marines die in droves in 30k as I'm sure you've noticed. I'd love to face a wall of bodies like that. Fish in a barrel springs to mind.

Against the last list, I'd have probably gone with the Spartan carrying the old terminators as it is a good staple. Mix that in with the fellblade, all 3 predator executioners, bare minimum of tacticals, the dreadnoughts and the invictarii in a Phobos backed up with characters.

 zedmeister wrote:
60 tactical marines! Plus another 30 in tactical support squads! Blimey. I'd say you need to reduce the amount of tactical chaff. Reading through the last battle, they were just mown down mercilessly. A single vindicator laser destroyer won't put out enough firepower on its own. The predator executioners sounded like they were doing most of the work in regards to firepower.

In general, you've got a ton of troops but I'd say not enough of the high firepower units to thin the enemy out. You're going to have to adapt and not just field walls of bodies and hope they survive a Typhon blast or phophex. Marines die in droves in 30k as I'm sure you've noticed. I'd love to face a wall of bodies like that. Fish in a barrel springs to mind.

Against the last list, I'd have probably gone with the Spartan carrying the old terminators as it is a good staple. Mix that in with the fellblade, all 3 predator executioners, bare minimum of tacticals, the dreadnoughts and the invictarii in a Phobos backed up with characters.

See I really like to have a lot of infantry on the board. But as you say, they're just chaff and don't do anything apart from die.

Perhaps I could take an all Cataphracti army.

Run pride of the legion and sniper vets and devistators.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
See I really like to have a lot of infantry on the board. But as you say, they're just chaff and don't do anything apart from die.

Perhaps I could take an all Cataphracti army.

You're playing the wrong Legion if you want to run Infantry blobs - Death Guard and Iron Warriors do heavy infantry attrition better. Probably Space Wolves as well.

You can switch out for Cataphracti terminators but you're still without any reliable delivery mechanisms (Caestus, Kharybdis, Spartan). Walking them will take an age and they'll get picked apart by plasma, phosphex and all the like. You still need the big hitters (Scorpius, Leviathan's, Predators, Javelins, Sicarans, Medusa's, etc) to thin the enemy out.

Its not to long ago you guys had this post active, so here goes :-)

It sounds to me like your opponents are all fielding the best their specific legions can. So I will share a few of my experiences, and then you can disregard them or not.

1. Decide if youre a fluff player or if you wanna play to win a bit. loads of marines = fluff, and UM aint one of the legions that truly benefits from loads of tacticals (look at IF with +1BS on bolters or BA with +1 to wound),

2. Tacticals with power weapons = AWESOME looking, but not worth it in any way on the table. Your invictarus squad will outperform and destroy the vet squad.

3. I know this is not top of your list, but you need to get some transports into your list. What you have is to slow for the kinda game you seem to enjoy (loads of troops) as I see it. Trust me, I have 100 tacticals, and I love fielding them all, BUT in transports! or atleast 60% in transports.



Praetor with P fist and Iron Halo - OK, perhaps consider giving him the UM unique armour (2+ and FnP 5+) and axe (with ap2 on ini) instead of powerfist, or both? Keep the iron halo, and you would have a beast of a boss there. 2+/4++ with FnP 5+ and the axe with AP 2 on ini, and possibly the PF with double strength.
master of signals - classic solid choice.
damocles - this little fella is made of awesomeness!
9 Veterans with power swords - looks awesome! but footslogging? a unit this expensive desperatly needs a transport. 3+ saves just aint gonna save them.

Spartan with 10 Kata - whats your load out?

3 blobs of 20 tacticals - love it love it love it! but unless you boost them with characters and apothecaries, they dont do much for you. Try 6 groups of 10 in rhinos instead. Will 1) bring more survivability inside the rhino and 2) more tactical flexibility due to the quicker move in rhino and more targets.
2 volkite rifle squads - they look awesome, but are really not worth it imo.
1 melta squad - 5 man? in transport?

Deredeo - with what load out? It is a beast if you have lascannons on it.
1 Laser Destroyer Vindicator - good if you run them in groups of 3. If not, they are mediocre at best
Plasma Predator Squadren - good


I have taken the liberty to do a similar walkthrough of your list over all the stuff you have:

Gulliman

Fellblade

HQ

Terminator Praetor - classic with a group of terminators and a spartan.
2 Chaplains - Use them with your tacticals.
Master of Signals - Use this fella with your Damocles
Moritat - With your destroyers. Plasma is fun, but not very good irl any longer.
Terminator Librarian - classic with a group of terminators and a spartan.
Deimos Rhino - awesome (assuming it is a damocles) tool for its points. In particular if you have reserves coming in.

Elites

10 Cataphracts power fists and chain fists - Put them in a spartan. They are decent, not amazing.
10 Tartaros power fists and chain fists - Put them in a spartan. They are decent, not amazing.
10 Invictari Axes - Imba unit in a Spartan or a Phobos.
10 Destroyers - Yes! with a moritat and jump packs they are good!
10 Invictari Thunder Hammers - All thunderhammers? jezus, thats a lot of points. you HAVE to use a land raider or two to get them over the table. Must be a prime target for your opponents when they see this group?
3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts - what load out do you have on these? they can be very very good with all cc weapons or some hard hitting ranged firepower (Khreres looks great, but really aint all that shiny when it comes down to it).

Troops

3 blobs of 20 tacticals - As described above. Boost units with characters such as, libby or chaplains, and add in apothecaries and vexillas. No need to have vox as you dont have much artillery that would benefit from that. Possibly consider 10 man squads in rhinos for improved tactical flexibility? Do they have extra chainswords?
2 blobs of 20 sword breachers - These must look awesome! but again, all those power weapons...irk, expensive. Its kinda like my Imperial Fist Warders with power axes all over. Looks amazing, but I have yet to see them work proper outside ZM.
20 Volkite Caliver (the 30'' one) - Since it is heavy, they are not very tactical, but rather defensive,

Heavy Support

Vindicator with laser destroyer - get more. Works best in groups of 3.
Plasma Predator Squadren - nasty unit.
4 Land Raider Phobos - One of these would be good to send in your veterans or (to be) Invictarus units. 4 is a lot.
Spartan - Go to troop transport for elite units
Deredeo with auto cannons - Decent against medium/light AV, and decent against fliers.
10 Missile Launchers - swiss army knife. Good against light/medium AV and infantry, though useless against terminators.
10 Lascannons - These are good with tankhunter (as the IF have). Possibly have a siege breaker join them. He will give them tankhunter, and now they become good!


All in all I have a few pointers I think is worth considering regarding your army:
-Get 2 more vindicators or drop the unit entirely.
-Drop the Veterans. Its a huge point sink for you, even if they do look amazing (you can always use some of them as a command squad). Use your Invictarus instead, and use your land raiders. Many AV14 is tough to handle, and dont get distressed when you loose 1 or 2 racing across the table. According to my experience, then veterans tends to work best in squads of 10, with 2 missile launchers and a rhino. Then give them Marksmen, and have them come in from the side of the board, and deploy 12" in, and shoot something with either AV 10 (Rhinos, Predators, Artillery etc) or something with a high toughness value. Or simply shoot a bucket load of rounds into a heavy support squad. My opponents HATE my veteran squads for this very reason.
-Drop the 2 volkite squads. They look great, but heavy makes them defensive units, and you dont need to spend more pts on defensive units as I see it.
-You have access to a very nasty unit in your Fulmentari terminators. Consider building a squad of those? 2+ armour with 2 str 8 missiles per man is good.
-If youre playing in a meta with fliers, you should consider getting a deredo with lascannons. They are evil.
-Get more rhinos for your army. They are dirt cheap for what they do imo.

As I see it, you have all the basics you need (if you disregard the rhinos) to make a very good and tactically flexibly army. Give your sergents the UM unique axe upgrades in your tactical squads, and also give them extra chainswords and a rhino. Suddenly they will have a bit of punch, and with many more targets to shoot at, your opponents can only stop that many in one round (having to destroy the rhinos first). Once a tactical unit is out of its rhino, its less of a threat, compared to the other units still in rhinos, so most likely your opponents will leave them as "targets of opportunity" rather than priority targets. Also, give all sergents melta bombs. Makes your units better against armour too.

I once had a 15 man tactical squad with a praetor and an apothecary attached to the unit. Sergent with all the shiny stuff in upgrades (could argue that was a waste of pts) where my opponent charged me with 9 jetbikes including his praetor. My sergent took the challenge from his praetor, and due to all the attacks my tacticals had combined with my praetor and the FnP 5+, I destroyed his squad in the second round of combat where I had more attacks than he did, and the sheer number of attacks was enough to take him down.

You dont have to ruin the feel of your army to make it significantly better without making it a "broken" or designed against one particular army.

Any who, this was my 5 cent on the topic. If you wanna discuss some of this, please dont hold back :-)


P.S. If your legion is fully painted or close to, it would be cool to see a picture or two of them?

Ratkus has made a good set of points.
It seems to me that your lists lack focus, especially when you can field certain combos fairly easily.
I sketched this up on battlescribe, so I apologise for the awkward formatting.
I only used what you own, according to your list in the OP.

NB: the armoured spearhead ROW allows the tacticals to take land raiders as dedicated transports.

Strat:
Pair up the land raiders, charge the tacticals in first to soak up overwatch, then charge the breachers in.
The praetor and the chaplain joins the suzerains in the spartan, this is your sledgehammer, commit it as early as possible.
The predators and the fellblade can sit back and blast stuff.
If there is air support, the Deredeo has a good chance against it, otherwise, it can assist the predators and fellblade.

There are points left over to change upgrades around as you see fit.

Update:

Okay just played in a three game tournament with a new mechanised army, I did better but I still had a rough time of it.

Heres the list I used.

Praetor, Paragon, Iron Halo
9 Invictari
Land Raider P

3 Contemptor Dreads

10 Sword Breachers with fist
Land Raider P

10 Sword Breachers with fist
Land Raider P

Deredeo with auto and Aelos

Sicaran Venator

Sicaran rockets


Game 1: Deathguard

Basically it was lengthways deployment on a cityfight map so I wasn't able to get my Invictari into combat. His heavy support squads and quad guns shredded my land raiders. The rocket sicaran got immobilised by cover and stuck behind a wrecked LR. I got his quad guns, a flamer team, a rhino, a lascannon squad and a leviathan. He killed 3 land raiders, one breacher squad, all three Contemptors and half of another.

Game 2: Basically a total win but that doesn't count as the guy basically had two Calth boxes with some rhino's and LR.

Game 3: Salamanders

Basically it was a multi objective and I had issues getting to the objectives. His AT fire was extremely effective whilst mine failed to do anything. Lack of AC really jurt here as he was able to destroy a few of my tanks with jetbikes (in a Salamanders army ). Essentially he blew my tanks up, I couldn't kill his; the game ended with a whimper. Didn't get a chance to charge as he had too many powerful CC units that I didn't think my Invictari could take.

I killed: Land Raider, Lascannon Mortis, Sicaran Venator, handful of Veterans and Terminators. Chaplain and large jetbike squad.

He killed: Two Sicaran, 3 Contemptors, 1 Land Raider and its breacher team.


So are there any ways I can improve this list? Basically I need more fire power in the army and would look to get rid of the contemptors. I currently need more AT to make sure I always win the tank battles. Ideally I would want to keep the sword breachers but they are a white elephant TBH. In both my second and third game they failed to kill more than a handful of marines and the first saw them fluke charge an unsupported quad gun squad. But only after 1000 points of Ultramarines had died in a dash down that corridor.

Sword breachers are just very expensive and are a weaker version of the Invictarii. You could keep one squad if you like, but I'd replace them with Sniper Vets (in Pride of the Legion) or 1-2 normal squads of tacticals in rhinos. Plus 3 dreads is also a lot, you could take a Contemptor mortis and some quad mortars - cheaper and better at shooting.