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I like Warmachine and Hordes a lot. I have spent several hundred quid on both.

A lot of that is second hand or stock clearance. This might explain my reaction to the prices of Azrael and Kallus2. They are fairly big resin models but £100 for the pair definitely puts them into the 'one this month, one the next' bracket for me. Looking at units i see £50-60 for twelve models.

Does anyone else pause when looking at these prices?

Misread your post intially. In the US they'd be about $100 for the pair MSRP. Usually you can find them at a discount but it would still be around $90 for the pair. Azreal is a little pricey but since he is a character warbeast his price is higher than a normal warbeast and Kallus is priced as if he was a warbeast (probably because he's on a 50mm base).

Honestly, if they were epic designs, it wouldn't be bad for the size, but since fans measure models by player value (use; fun painting) rather than size, yeah, they're pretty bad considering neither is really a winner.

PP miniatures are a little on the expensive side considering their designs are 10-15 years behind the times. Its a side effect of PP being rather unwilling to spend more money than necessary to go high tech. They're unwilling to invest in HIPS molds and sculpting except at a snails pace.

Fortunately, you don't need a large number of miniatures to play WMH, so the higher prices are somewhat mitigated.

I find the minis to be a bit more expensive, but I rather like them, and like other people have mentioned, you don't need nearly as many to play a "big" game. Buying brand new, I'll have a 75 pt army for about $350 [CAD], so I can't complain. Of course, buying a box of Sentinels at 22 pts, including the Command, helped that in a large degree.

So far, I'm buying models that I like, and I'll have a playable army bought, and ready to play MUCH cheaper than any 40k army I've ever tried. I just wish the Retribution "All in one" box had been released about 4 weeks sooner.

IME it seems to be the one off things that are the most expensive, Characters, big things. IT used to be that most of the really expensve points wise was cheap, Solos, small units, and so forth. But every caster coming out now seems to be expensive. Because their either a unit or a calvary or just big.
and with the utterly useless duel kits now a thing, its even worse. Why am I paying nearly 60$ for a unit of reeves. Oh, because they can ALSO be Wolves. Why not. y'know, make it cheaper for two seperate boxes then stick me with bitz I CANT USE. It it frusterating. There was a reason deep discounts where so popular

It also doesn't help that you're British and the pound to dollar is still quite poor at the moment.

I think some of their pricing is forward minded as they don't often
raise prices on older product (It's happened maybe once in
the past years?), so newer product tends to be more expensive.

You guys have raised some valid points.

I think the main problem is the units. e.g. £40 for the *ten man* plastic Halberdiers. Plus having bought second hand ....or a stupid number of the AIOs for so long.

Ah, well, it's not like I don't have a ton of other PP stuff that I should paint anyway

 Souleater wrote:
You guys have raised some valid points.

I think the main problem is the units. e.g. £40 for the *ten man* plastic Halberdiers. Plus having bought second hand ....or a stupid number of the AIOs for so long.

Ah, well, it's not like I don't have a ton of other PP stuff that I should paint anyway

Yeah, what are you doing buying new stuff without painting???

 malfred wrote:
Yeah, what are you doing buying new stuff without painting???

I thought that was a sickness we all had!

 the_ampersand_man wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Yeah, what are you doing buying new stuff without painting???

I thought that was a sickness we all had!

It is, but you really should paint once you start complaining about prices of things

but painting SUCKS!!!!
im close to finishing a 100pt circle army that was given to me for free and warlocks sometimes make me wonder if I a bullet to the head would be easier. Doesnt help I got none of the good casters.
But really, I do think pricing is a little off in some cases. I mean their old restic stuff is not worth it IMO

 malfred wrote:

 the_ampersand_man wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Yeah, what are you doing buying new stuff without painting???

I thought that was a sickness we all had!

It is, but you really should paint once you start complaining about prices of things

Painting? Never heard of her.

...and I would have to put them together before I paint them.

 Souleater wrote:
...and I would have to put them together before I paint them.

!!!

Well played.

Or rather, not played at all

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
IME it seems to be the one off things that are the most expensive, Characters, big things. IT used to be that most of the really expensve points wise was cheap, Solos, small units, and so forth. But every caster coming out now seems to be expensive. Because their either a unit or a calvary or just big.
and with the utterly useless duel kits now a thing, its even worse. Why am I paying nearly 60$ for a unit of reeves. Oh, because they can ALSO be Wolves. Why not. y'know, make it cheaper for two seperate boxes then stick me with bitz I CANT USE. It it frusterating. There was a reason deep discounts where so popular

PP already has too many SKUs, making it difficult for shops to maintain the entire range. Splitting boxes only makes that that problem worse.

I am also not entirely convinced that the units would cost substantially less if they were sold separately. It is not like they would cost 25 bucks for each unit individually. It might even cost the same, to be honest. Look at the old Wolves unit that is still for sale. It is 35 for 6 models. That works out to $5.5 per model. The new wolves unit is 55 for 10. That works out to $5.5 per model.

Just looking at the models, it seems like you could magnetize them with 2 magnets in the shoulders. Now you have versatility!

 Souleater wrote:
I like Warmachine and Hordes a lot. I have spent several hundred quid on both.

A lot of that is second hand or stock clearance. This might explain my reaction to the prices of Azrael and Kallus2. They are fairly big resin models but £100 for the pair definitely puts them into the 'one this month, one the next' bracket for me. Looking at units i see £50-60 for twelve models.

Does anyone else pause when looking at these prices?

Warmachine is pricey. No bones about it.

But you only need a handful of models. So it isn't that bad.

Compared to keeping up with Magic or buying a 40k Army, Warmachine's scale really keeps the total cost down.

Old unit of wolves were metal. New ones are PVC. The new ones should be much cheaper really

PP really needs to work on their pricing IMO. I don't mind paying more for better models, but I do get annoyed buying PVC for premium prices. Same for their new hard plastic models. Can every single colossal NOT be split right down the middle? Seriously. I thought it was bad when the conquest and hyperion came out and you could see the seam-lines. Seems like the desert hydra is worse.

Sining wrote:
Old unit of wolves were metal. New ones are PVC. The new ones should be much cheaper really

PP really needs to work on their pricing IMO. I don't mind paying more for better models, but I do get annoyed buying PVC for premium prices. Same for their new hard plastic models. Can every single colossal NOT be split right down the middle? Seriously. I thought it was bad when the conquest and hyperion came out and you could see the seam-lines. Seems like the desert hydra is worse.

This is my biggest issue with PP, or one of them at least - they seem insistent on sticking to PVC for most of their plastic releases. Frankly, it's a nightmare of a material to work with, and I've hated assembling/painting the two units I have in it(IFP and Rifle Corps). As someone who probably values the painting/modeling aspect of the hobby more than gaming, that's a huge red flag. The announcement that Grymkin would largely be PVC with pewter/resin for the warbeasts/larger releases on the old forums was pretty much a guarantee that I'll never pick up the faction. I know that molds for hard plastic are expensive, but at the same time, Warmachine/Hordes are two of the bigger wargames currently on the market. Using pvc for your miniatures isn't really acceptable at that point.

10 Wolves, extra bits for two different types of units (I think that's
how they pack them right?) 55

10 Wolves, Metal 33 + 11 + 11 = 55

Their cost savings probably comes in shipping weights as well
as saved production costs for the models themselves, but it's
been years since the metal sculpts were done. I kind of get the
"hidden cost increase" in this case.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

Sining wrote:
Old unit of wolves were metal. New ones are PVC. The new ones should be much cheaper really

PP really needs to work on their pricing IMO. I don't mind paying more for better models, but I do get annoyed buying PVC for premium prices. Same for their new hard plastic models. Can every single colossal NOT be split right down the middle? Seriously. I thought it was bad when the conquest and hyperion came out and you could see the seam-lines. Seems like the desert hydra is worse.

This is my biggest issue with PP, or one of them at least - they seem insistent on sticking to PVC for most of their plastic releases. Frankly, it's a nightmare of a material to work with, and I've hated assembling/painting the two units I have in it(IFP and Rifle Corps). As someone who probably values the painting/modeling aspect of the hobby more than gaming, that's a huge red flag. The announcement that Grymkin would largely be PVC with pewter/resin for the warbeasts/larger releases on the old forums was pretty much a guarantee that I'll never pick up the faction. I know that molds for hard plastic are expensive, but at the same time, Warmachine/Hordes are two of the bigger wargames currently on the market. Using pvc for your miniatures isn't really acceptable at that point.

Their hard plastic moulds are iffy as it is. They seem to favor splitting everything down the middle for some reason (like their colossals/gargantuans) and then there was the desert hydra 'miscast' issue.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
...
The announcement that Grymkin would largely be PVC with pewter/resin for the warbeasts/larger releases on the old forums was pretty much a guarantee that I'll never pick up the faction. I know that molds for hard plastic are expensive, but at the same time, Warmachine/Hordes are two of the bigger wargames currently on the market. Using pvc for your miniatures isn't really acceptable at that point.

Wait, what? That PVC material is being applied to those new, awesome models? That is sad to hear. I don't play anymore, but I was interested in possibly picking up some of the new Grymkin models because they looked fun. But if they are continuing to use these less favorable materials, I'll have to pass on them.

The Grymkin models were PP's last chance for me. Oh well.

But yeah, PP models are expensive for what you get. Sure, you don't need as many actual models as for other games, but that argument doesn't hold up when you need to have two or three different lists's worth of models for tournament play.

@sining Agreed on the whole "split everything down the middle" thing. I've seen a few hard plastic Conquest/Victor kits and it just looks bad. As for the Desert Hydra, supposedly PP has no plans currently to fix the issues with that particular kit.... They're really starting to fall behind the curve when it comes to the miniatures aspect, no matter how decent the rules are.

@Bunkhouse - I think it was Will Pagani that stated that most of the Grymkin would be pvc in one of the long announcement threads on the old forums. Real shame, IMO. Even well cast pvc is still pvc...

On the pvc plastic note, I've noticed a weird trend where someone new to Warmachine/Hordes will ask about or complain about the casting/material quality of the battle box kits, infantry, etc, and the standard response from die-hard PP fans always seems to be "put in a mispack request and PP will replace the miscast parts". Which would be great and all... except that you're still replacing crappy plastic with other crappy plastic that may or may not also have similar flaws as the piece you just had replaced...

Well the main reason PP isn't upgrading to HIPS is because they're kinda miserly with their $$$. They are reluctant to put money towards upgrading existing kits. They also aren't willing to pay money to hire experienced sculpters so they could churn out new sculpts. So they're stuck with their current team.

@Mr.Grey I have no idea how they thought the Hydra was 'acceptable'. I mean, it's not a huge miscast but if you're going to charge people a 100+usd for it, you probably should get it right.

As for PVC, there are some companies that do nice PVC now apparently. I was pleasantly surprised by Mantics new PVC veermyn, specifically the brood mother and the rat shredders. I wish PP would learn how to do PVC from them (and lower prices too)

@Grey They still have some good sculptors, but I'm not too fond of the switch to digital sculpting. It seems to have caused them to start making everything in heroic scale.

Pretty sure PP has always sculpted in heroic scale. Most of my infantry are Mk1 sculpts and they're all suffering a case of extra large hands, heads, and weapons.

And yeah, the Hydra is pretty bad. Definitely an unacceptable issue there.

With the exception of a few accidents (e.g. the child-sized Black 13th) PP models seem to be on the same scale as GW''s.

The pvc generally works for the chunkier models but for those with intricate detail or on smaller bases it can be annoying to clean down and detailing can be shallower.

The rise in unit spamming has killed off the argument about fewer models for me.

And the range itself has gotten larger, too.

Particularly when I am looking at £40-50 quid for a ten man unit *after* the discount I can get buying on line.

Didn't MK3 cut back on the unit-spamming?

Well it made 'jack and 'beast spamming more popular.

 Souleater wrote:
Well it made 'jack and 'beast spamming more popular.

'Jack-spamming specifically. 'Beast-spamming stayed about the same.

The basic problems of reach (a Command 8 unit with 2" melee range can hit two things about 23.5" apart in one activation, theoretically, while a warjack (even with 2" reach) is stuck hitting things in a puny 6"-ish radius circle), reliability (a unit gets a lot more rolls, the 'jack may hit harder but he's got to hit for that to matter), and space control (a warjack can't easily block access to anything) remain, but the price drops most warjacks got (2-4 Mk.3 points, usually, using the 1 Mk.2 point = 2 Mk.3 points approximation, by comparison to almost no change out of most infantry), increase in 'jack points, free Focus, and controls put on unit damage output (fewer cheap Weapon Master units than there used to be) certainly have pushed warjacks into far more relevance than they had in Mk.2.

Warbeasts missed out on the across-the-board buffs, and they don't have nearly so many new functionality-enabling toys, and the balance in Hordes was always sort of skewed the other way anyway (warbeasts > infantry, unless you were in Trolls). There are certainly 'beast-spamming lists that weren't around in Mk.2 (Xerxis2 with Field Marshal: Spd+2, Una2 who required almost a day one nerf to griffons, Kaya3 giving Synergy for living 'beasts in Circle...), but I don't know that there's that much more 'beast-spam than there used to be.