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Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Hey all,
I recently started playing vampire counts again, I've had some success against other factions but I find chaos really hard to defeat. Chaos warriors chew through my skele hordes FAST, chaos lords eat my vamps in challenges, even small units of chaos knights totally outmatch black knights. I was on the other hand very impressed by grave guard who managed to get some serious work done. Does anyone have any tips for getting the upper hand vs chaos? Should I go caster heavy or focus on combat vamps and wight kings to help my units carry combat? Should I focus on skellie spear hordes, ghouls or zombie spam buffed by vanhels+hellish+corpse cart? Should I be looking for cavalry dominance with blood knights/heavy investment in black knights or focus on adding more graveguard and maybe some crypt horrors?

Thanks in advance

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/14 12:43:34


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Vampire counts in 8th edition play a bit differently than other editions. Going magic heavy with Vampires isn't very cost effective as far as summoning goes. Ghouls are a better choice than Skeletons, but if you are like me I only use skeletons. Consequently I take two units of 50 (or 60 at 3000 pts) and rank them only 5 wide and as deep as possible. I don't really bother trying to summon more. I just charge them into a unit and hope they last for as long as they can hold out.

Your best bet is to go super combat heavy on a Vampire lord. A barded steed, heavy armour, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Red Fury and Quick Blood will chew through just about anything. They used to call them Blender Lords for a reason. They can take on a lot of stuff, even Chaos Lords.

A lot of competitive lists used to take a Blender Lord with a bunch of Necromancers as back up casters.

I would honestly avoid buff units like corpse carts etc. These tend to be traps. Don't concentrate on making your gakky units better. Just concentrate on what gets the job done. Vampire Lords, Black Knights, Grave Guard, Hex Wraiths, Terrogeists.

Get as many fast units as possible. Lots of Cavalry, Hex Wraiths will put the hurt any knight unit, but be careful with Warriors of Chaos because their Knights and Skull Crushers have access to Enchanted Weapons which will destroy Hex Wraiths in a heart beat. Vargeists, Dire Wolves, Fell Bats and Hex Wraiths can be good to take out chaff and re-directors, allowing you to manoeuvre your hard hitting units to where they need to go.

Contrary to how you would think Vampire Counts should play, they don't last long in protracted combats against good units like Warriors of Chaos. You want to make sure you tie them down with a gakky unit like Skeletons and Zombies and come in hard with your Knights or Monsters to delete the unit. You don't want to get stuck in for long. Because once you start loosing, you're in for a rough ride.

Again, don't concentrate on your bad units. They are only there to hold up the enemy for a turn or two. Hit fast and hit hard. Keep your strong units safe and lock them down with your gakky units.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

A new 8th thread, and with the two armies I recently collected, so I am all in this discussion.

Vamp Core.

Start with your core, choose zeds, skellies, or ghouls, each have their advantages.
Zombies are not so popular because you will need a whole lot of them which means a large collection. Summon horde doesn;t work quite as well as in 7th, but it does work. However other that providing for an outrageous model count, and the poor quality of zombie sculpts (fixable by buying Mantic zeds), you also MUST get off a lot of Invocation of Nehek spells. With other options it matters less if you forgo or fail to cast for a turn or so.

Skeletons are my preferred choice, I take spears but mainly for theme, the skeletons appear to be more like a professional army and I think that would appeal to the 'aristocracy of the night' more than hanging with zombies or ghouls. However that is theme and theme doesn't count for much. For maximised effect, sword and board for the 6++ does work because while you don't save too many you do save some, and each 6 prevents two casualties as it reduces crumble. Skeletons do need big blocks to survive against anything, and even big blocks don't last long against chaos warriors, they can hold for a while against marauders but thats it.
Some people deride skeleton warriors because of their poor profile, I don't. Really there isn't much between them and most other line infantry. They are S3 and T3 as usual, they get a 5+ and a reasonable weapon included for 5pts each. Their WS is just enough so they dont have to hit basic troops on 5+ like zombies do, they are let down only by their initiative, which counts but not too much in 8th. Yes they will lose, but if you have enough of them they will stick around, and most importantly you can have a rough guess as to how long based on rate of collapse, normal infantry doesn't give you that certainty. If I could take a form of crumble on a human or elf unit where soldiers melted away rather than the whole unit ran ( a bit like AoS) I would take it. I didnt like the mechanic used for regular morale, but its tactically superior. Besides you can bring undead back, and perhaps buy an extra turn.

Ghouls appear tom be the best option, until you consider that even though they hit fairly hard and have toughness, they lack saves and are expensive, and T4 no save won't last long against Chaos, they serve better against weaker base S3 armies. Ghouls can work as a core, it possible, even recommended to take a single block horde of ghouls and burn all your core requirement on that. Its not a bad plan, but it sticks all your eggs in one basket and against an elite hard hitting force like chaos you desperately need to play the numbers game. I would be more inclined to take ghouls and skeletons in equal numbers, you get a half decent combat block that you can use on the flank (ghouls) and a reserve unit (skels) that you can hold back and throw into battle to hold up chaos for a turn. Having a reserve is crucial for vampire counts I find, as your armies will get to lose fights in order to win battles, also if you take master of the dead and keep the skels out of the fight, by the time they are thrown in they might be a lot bigger.

Special.

I disagree with Brutus_Apex on corpse carts, they are useful, do consider taking one, but don't add any upgrades to them. I generally say leave them behind when facing artillery lists, cannon gunners love a one shot debuff on your entire battle line provided by shooting a corpse cart. Chaos arent cannon users though. While corpse carts maximise synergy with zombies, they buff any undead unit nicely. ASF zombies are pointless, even if its doing more than negating ASL is still a gimic as the zeds need a 5+ to hit just about anything and have no parry save or extra rank of spear pokes etc. I dont buy into that even though the corpse cart is clearly zombie themed.
ASF ghouls however are tantamount to smelly ugly witch elves with T4.
ASF Grave Guard, with sword and board; now we are talking: Hitting first with killing blow in a deep formation which is Neheked back as priority (and due to its location that is how you trigger ASF for next turn). I can see that being very problematic for chaos warriors. Add Banner of the Barrows and Hellish Vigour spells and I can see you winning combat outright.

If you don't want the corpse cart take great weapon Grave Guard, they are brutally hard hitting and the downside of the great weapon doesnt matter much against chaos, you aren't going first if you strike in inititive order against anything you need to worry about. Exception for hitting other chaos with great weapons, but chaos doesn't need that against undead. If your opponent habitually takes them anyway then do consider corpse cart and great weapon Grave Guard, you will get to smack at I3, trump the ASL chaos warriors and brutally punish them.

Next the one unit you have been missing from the discussion - Crypt Horrors. They are nasty, in fact they are a contender for the best anvil unit in 8th, up there with nurgle elite for resilience. T5 monstrous infantry that hits reasonably hard and comes back. Frankly they are unfair, 9tyh Age increased their price dramatically and rightly so, they are underpriced and overperforming. Nehek still works nicely on them, though not as well as Grave Guard. I would take a minuimum of six, preferably eight or nine. 1d4chan has some interesting words on Crypt Horrors, so does Carpe Noctem.

Hex Wraiths and Black Knights work well, but you dont need mobility vs chaos, they will be coming to you, usually. Chaos can be a surprise effective shooty army. They lack any kind of archer, which doesn't matter as archery sucks in 8th outside of some specific builds. However marauder horse have S4 harassment shooting, most others have S3 and the range deosnt matter really. Pistoliers and dark riders are still better, but marauders are among the better light missile horse.
Then you get Hellcannon, they only artillery piece in the game, other than the steam tank that doesn't care if you base it with chaff. FEED ME! Then go back to launching what is one of the best artillery attacks in warhammer. Did I mention that it doesn't like wizards? The Hellcannon can cause big problems.. Now if the chaos player takes artillery then you will likely need a counter, but what to counter with, it must be able to deal with a T6 monster, normal cannon hunting rules dont apply Hellcannon dont fight fair.
All in all you might as well not bother with most mobile units beyond redirectors as you have little need of them, if you do face Hellcannon you can hope to suck up the losses better than almost any other army in the game anyway.

The trap choice in special are Spirit Hosts. Normally they are prime chaff units, deployed singly and on a par with Great Eagles for the chaff role. Trouble is they crumble real easy so some players take blocks of them to hold. This is normally a solid tactic, against most armies, but not against others. Warriors of Chaos is one of those others. First you face a faction with magic based ranged attacks, second ensorcelled weapons and third because Chaos mortals are a hero army and chaos heroes tend to go bigger on magic weaponry than most factions.
Single base spirit hosts still do their job, but consider them completely expendable and don't field more than you can afford to see thrown away.

My one issue at this point is that you really cant afford all this in your army. A decent Vamp list shoul look to fill out its special choice options, choose wisely.

Rare.

A word on the Rare choices. there are only two worth considering unless we discuss Morghasts, which I dont know enough about really to comment.
First the Mortis engine, yes it does work, but its much better if you take two or are using a ghoul/crypt horror list. Again make sure you are facing a non artillery army, as these things a huge bulls eye.. If you are playing blind its worth buying Mortis engines because while Hellcannon are an effective build, they arent common so your engines should be reaonably safe from being detonated.
Anyway boosting up a regen save or giving everyone a 5++ in a horde army works well. If you want to go the Mortis engine route take one to back up a ghoul (ghouls and crypt horrors) based army, and two to back up a skellie (skels and grave guard) based army for maxmimum effectivness.
The model is a must have in any event and once you have it you have to use it from time to time.

The alternative are to buy Terrorgheists. Scream is very effective, and T-bats laugh, or more appropriately shriek at armoured targets, chaos are a high ld army, but that doesn't save them, even dwarves succumb to screaming T-bats in the end, given time.

Characters.

I left this last because really one needs to, despite the essential nature of vampire characters to an undead army that is entirely reliant on their presence to exist, it is wrong to focus on the characters before the army.

Blender lord, yes thats impressive, but it costs a whole lot and is frankly unnecessary half th time. Besides it is well known that the Vampire lord is first equal place for generic combat lords in Warhammer, but the other title holder on the stand is the Chaos Lord, and the Chaos Lord has the advantage that it doesn't matter so much if he dies. Blender lords are also noted as not being quite as good in a challenge than some specialist lords, of which the Chaos Lord is one. Blenders are there to slaughter rank and file and win combat NOT for challenges. Besides even when you think you know what you are facing Eye of the Gods can change all that, and if the Eye roll is expanded by having a Chaos Shrine the Chaos champions can cherry pick their buffs to counter an existing threat. Your vamps cant do that.

Now as a rule of thumb only take a proper Blander lord if you really need to; otherwise take a 'mini blender' vampire hero with Red Fury and a cheap sword. I would go with Sword of Might as its optimum. You halve the price but keep most of the punch.

The real reason to consider a vampire lord at all is to get Ld10. Nobody else comes remotely close, the next best is Ld8, with a Strigoi being another type of Vampire Lord in all but name.
However if you cant afford a ld10 general so be it, extra crumble is not that big a deal. You can make your entire army out of hero level characters and not lose much effectiveness, and if if it spares more points for special choices then you are doing fine.

So what to consider.
Vampire lord? - I would avoid any blending and take a cheap lord with magic ability. Now cheap is a relevant term when your naked level 4 vampire lord costs 325pts, but he is worth it, add a 4++ and a cheap sword and be done with him. It will be enough.
Necromancer lord - a safer bet and the more usual option for a high level wizard. Hide him and give him at leat a 5++.
Multiple vampires - my preferred choice. You might lose one but if spread around they will deny the worst of crumble from loss of general and allow you to recover quickly. Two or three cheap vampires plus a necro is enough, and most can be level 1 casters, roll for each of them even if at least two will need to be casting nehek. Choose those two as you see the results.
Wight King - love to but cant. You need to try to be efficient with character spending and wight kings don't add to your casting but cost about as much as a vamp when all is said and done.
Wraiths and Banshees - likewise. Both are good, but you army needs to be tight when facing chaos warriors, and that means placing your trust in your special choices, not your characters frankly. Now do consider Banshees if you are making a 'screamer list' with one or more T-bats, preferably two. The mistake people make with a screamer list is to try and back it up with Doom and Darkness. I suggest you dont. For every caster running death you have one less casting lore of Vampires, which is not really a good idea. If you want lore of Death take a level 4 with it, you will have a good chance of getting what you want, and back him up with two or three nehek chanters of one type or another.

One last point, consider Mannfred the Acolyte, one of the few decently priced special characters in warhammer. Yes he costs 200pts for a level 2 vampire, and he has no ward save, but he does have a nifty sword (that he shouldnt really try to use unless well backed up) and he is the cheapest loremaster in warhammer that I know of. There is no obligation to take him as your general so you can afford to miscast with him (and use lore attribute to claw back the wound you will likely take). Mannfred offers certainty in the magic preparation, something most armies desperately need and cant get, and vampires need certainty more than any other. To know that you *WILL* have the choice of every spell in the key lore, and will be rolling for duplicates or other lore with your remaining casters is so useful. You can place Manny in the part of th line drawn up when you make the list, knowing in advance that he can attempt to cast Vigour or Vanhels or Nehek, no arguing or random selection getting in the way. You also *WILL* be able to threaten with curse of years and draw out dispel scrolls and burn dispel dice.

As a rule of thumb, don't try to out-character Warriors of Chaos with Vampire Counts, no matter how good vampires actually get, you will lose out.

Thats all from me for now.
One disclaimer, I am still fairly new to both these armies, so I am not a true gurur on them, but my focus is on both of them, and I have done a lot of research and watched a number of videos bioth 9th Age and 8th. I highly recommend the Vampire Counts tutorials on the Carpe Noctem forums, found in the Teachings of Abhoresh section of the website. I also recommend looking at the 8th edition tactical reviews on 1d4chan, they are rather seedy and crude but have a decent eye for value in the books. Other research has led me to YouTube, sometimes Warseer and a lot of the time right back here to Dakka.
Now I do run chaos very differently to most, so my view on the faction is admittedly skewed somewhat, but most of what I have said about the faction refers to the common wisdom of effective list building, not my own. For the record my own Warriors of Chaos army ias 100% chaos undivided, nobody has a mark of a specific god, and rthose units that do are simply absent. This does admittedly gimp my list, but as Warriors of Chaos are somewhat OP I dont mind, and hile mark upgrade are cheap for what they do, they do add up and my Chaos Undivided horde can be impressively and suitably large especially at 3k points. All I can say about my own list experience here is beware of budget chaos warriors. I run mine in blocks of 20, four ranks with sword and board, full command, and no marks. They still kick arse when vanilla; and can afford more of them than usual.
I did this because with exception of certain specific units and the new AoS stuff all the chaos mortals were modelled as undivided. I didnt want to take a basic chaos warrior give him a red paint job and say he worships Khorne. If my warriors worship Khorne I would use AoS core set miniatures for them. Also I didn't like how different units would worship different gods just because of what buff it gives their weapons. Warriors choose Khorne or Nurgle because their tribe does, not because they dual wield or have a great weapon. I didn't like the minimaxing. Most of all, the cheaper armies (plus adding some token blocks of marauders as padding) made my Chaos HORDE to be worthy of the name. High(ish) model count, about on a par with Dark Elves, it certainly looks impressive (more so when I eventually bother to field them painted), and the full rank bonuses and general numbers fielded give me some leeway that most chaos players dont get.

Hope this helps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 06:38:03


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Well that was very comprehensive, thank you for the help!
Unfortunately my chaos opponent does run a hellcannon. Grave guard I have found incredibly effective, I had a unit of 30 with great weapons, banner of the barrows and 3 characters in it, needless to say they chewed their way through 3 units of chaos warriors and a chaos knight. Skeletons in my first match where a dissapointment, Khorne warriors with additional hand weapons ripped through them faster than I could support and ended up getting into my generals unit's flank. Ghouls on the other hand performed excellently, I buffed them with vanhels and suddenly they were throwing out so many attacks even warriors were falling apart. In my second game the skellies performed considerably better and ultimately won me the match (well I beat the chaos side at least), they held the whole game on both flanks, a unit of 30 held up 15 chaos warriors and 5 chaos knights for 4 turns while my terrorgheist landed behind them and 1 turn screamed the knights apart, similarly I found that my black knights performed incredibly well when I picked the right combats. It was a 3k point game so I was running a master necro and a lv 4 vamp, I actually built him as an anti chaos lord/caster. Beguile, dreadknight, other tricksters shard, enchanted shield and talisman of preservation. He ended up sponging wounds the whole battle and lasting out the entire chaos attack with full wounds remaining before wiping out the majority of a 50 man high elf spearman/banner of the world dragon block before eventually succumbing to combat res.

On the whole top performers so far for me:
Skeleton blocks of 30 or more supported by invocation, 30 ghouls supported by vanhels, black knights when they pick their fights (I run 15 of them and they're just so hard to finish off, they survived an overcast purple sun, a silver helm combat, a face off with 50 high elf spearman and finished by winning a combat with a unit of chaos knights), grave guard with gw and banner of the barrows (probably my favourite unit I've run in fantasy), terrorgheist- as you say the shriek is so effective even vs high LD, removing whole units of chaos knights in a turn is great, he also routed several units of chaos warriors, finished off another and got into the flank of the high elf block and helped finish it off.

What I wasn't so impressed with:
Wight King: meh...he crumbled apart in one turn of combat with a high elf prince, he killed on average less than 1 model per turn, I guess as bsb he was useful for combat res, but other than that...nothing to write home about

Vamp lore of death lv 2: this is most likely my fault, but I just didn't have enough power dice left after my lore of vamps casters had finished to be able to get anything off, he also killed very few chaos warriors and was slain very early in return

Varghulf: again probably my fault, in my first game I misused him and he took a charge from a big block of warriors+chaos lord. I probably should have used his speed to get him into the flank of important fights to help my skellies out, I feel like his high strength and decent number of attacks+respectable toughness and regeneration make him a rather large thorn in any units side. Alternatively, vs chaos there really aren't very many units that can't handle him by themselves which makes him a less attractive choice to me as he requires far more management. I don't know how he'd perform vs a hellcannon if he were to reach it.

I'd really love to use crypt horrors, I love the models and the stats look pretty special. I've been reading that a lore of beasts vamp can turn them into a rather dangerous proposition. I'm thinking of adding a unit of to my list
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Ok BaconUprising, first thing I will caution you about is that you appear to be evaluating your units based on experience, this is fair but for warhammer is not the best idea, abstract evaluation counts for more than sweet or bad memories of a units performance. You remember when a block of skeletons held against chaos warriors, and might not realise they were probably very lucky to do so. The dice gods are fickle.

Grave Guard are too much of a crutch, 9th Age tunes them down a tad, and very slightly buffs skeleton warriors to slightly blur the distinction between elite fighters and soak units. They are clearly a superior choice in 8th and frankly so long as you keep them topped with Nehek they will do fine.

From what I am seeing here I would suggest a corpse cart, and crypt horrors, pay for them by tuning your character selection.

Try a lvl 1 vampire hero with red fury for one, backed up by two others. Consider Mannfred as one of those two. Demote your master necro to a normal necro. Vampire counts need wizards, they are one of the armies that profits more from multiple level 1 and 2's more than taking level 4's. And if you include Mannfred you end up covered anyway, don't over rely on him but in 3k armies certainly give him a shot.
I think you have been lucky with your vampire lord, yes he is tooled up well, but most purchasable defences fail on a roll of 1-3 and he was facing a lot. Still if you do want to go that route still follow the advice, plenty of level 1 vampires as backup. Two hero vampires working together can do as much as any combo of vampire lord, they aren't as survivable, but you can tool them up for 4+/5++, 2+/5++ if mounted if you like cheaply.

The more I look at this the more attractive a prospect ASF from a corpse cart appears, especially in a three way with elves.

Varghulfs are fire and forget weapons by intent and its too expensive for its given role. Look at their special rules, they don't care about their flanks. Ok. To use that means you have to either use them as a flank anchor or send them forward. Your monster wont survive either option. Frankly I am not impressed, its expensive and while it is admittedly tough it has a confused role, you ought to be taking care of it, and hodling it in line but its special rules (which you pay for) say otherwise. I would consider looking at Vargheists and Crypt Horrors instead and can pay a lot towards your commitments to both units with the cost of the Varghulf.

Vampire with lore of death. sorry no. With death magic makes sense in a vampire list you need multiple lore of vampires casters, and want to concentrate on the lower spells. If you want lore of death go large so you can get the spells you need. I would instead choose lore of shadows as a bonus lore for a level 1 or 2. The lore attribute is very handy for when your general is being targeted, or your necro is being picked on. Swap either out for your shadow vampire. Tool him appropriately. Add a wraith in your army somewhere as a bonus swap target and the shadow vampire can extricate himself in a later turn.
The other reason to choose shadows is because all the spells are useful Miasma is an excellent fallback if you don't like what you get and is cheap to cast if you want the free teleport. Note here though that the miasma debuff doesn't mean much if facing your core forces, but it can make a big difference when your target is up against crypt horrors or one of your vampiric or wight units and you hex WS or I. Otherwise hexing BS is generally good if your opponent takes a large missile unit, and a Move hex is always handy, so your spell will have utility for causing various mischiefs from turn one.

I would like to see your list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 15:44:59


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm going to have to disagree with Orianth on the corpse cart, and here's why.

Fist, its 90 points. Not cheap and on its own doesn't contribute much. It requires a caster to be in range to pull off its vigour mortis power, and then that requires another unit to be in range to benefit from it. Which brings me to my next point.

It's a chariot with movement 4. You know what that means? I can't march ever. So it can't even actually keep up with your basic infantry units which are already very slow. Once you've gotten to mid field you've out paced the thing and thats where most of the combat happens, never mind the fact that most of the hard hitting and useful stuff in your army (baring Grave Guard) is way too fast to be able to benefit from it. Which brings me to my next point.

If you are using Grave Guard, you are probably using great weapons. Buffing them with ASF means they cancel out the ASL and they strike at initiative. Which is only 3. This means absolutely nothing against Warriors of Chaos and Elves. They still strike before you and will rip you to shreds anyway. Again, buffing skeletons and the like adds almost nothing to their effectiveness on the battlefield.

If you want to mitigate high initiative models, Bat Swarms are the way to go. It gives them ASL, they are quick enough to keep up with your infantry, and they can marchblock/bait/redirect. They are also cheaper than Corpse Carts.

I'd also like to add that a standard Vampire doesn't come anywhere near the effectiveness of a Blender Lord. Blender Lords will carry the day, they aren't part of your army...they are your army. Blender Lords will absolutely win Challenges, and completely destroy any kind of rank and file unit. Chaos Lords are tough for sure, but here's the thing...no one takes them. Everyone takes Aspiring Champions and Daemon Princes. Either way, a Blender Vamp can and will beat all of those things. But it's still a bad Idea to put your General into a position where he can die, because that could crumble your whole army. Just use his champion of Chaos rule against him and feed him champions every turn while you summon them back, and then beat his unit down with your Vampire Lord.

The leadership 10 can be invaluable when considering things like frenzy, swift reform and Death Magic. Leadership 7 just does not cut it.

The main reason why a regular Vampire does not have even have half of the effectiveness of a Lord is because he has to sacrifice either ASF or Strength from a magic weapon. He can't have both Quickblood, Red Fury and the Ogre Blade. And that is what makes the combo so effective. This is on top of the fact that he is very fragile. He will die quickly.

You are playing at 3000 points anyway. You have more than enough room for a Vampire Lord. Keep him at level 1 and then add a level 4 Necromancer to keep in the back.

Death Magic can be very effective in a Vampire Counts army, and it's my personal favourite lore. But you definitely need a level 4 caster for it to get all the good spells. You can create a seriously scary leadership bomb army with Lore of Death, Aura of Dark majesty, Fear incarnate and the Screaming Banner. This would obviously benefit more from using units like Terrorgeists and Banshees. Hopefully you roll Doom and Darkness, that spell is a game changer and has won me countless battles.

Remember though, your general has to take lore of Vampires.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/05 22:04:40


Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with Orianth on the corpse cart, and here's why.


I am going to counter disagree with Brutus apex again, and here is why.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Fist, its 90 points. Not cheap and on its own doesn't contribute much. It requires a caster to be in range to pull off its vigour mortis power, and then that requires another unit to be in range to benefit from it. Which brings me to my next point.


True on the cost, it isnt cheap and you dont want to get it into combat either. That point is accepted.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It's a chariot with movement 4. You know what that means? I can't march ever. So it can't even actually keep up with your basic infantry units which are already very slow. Once you've gotten to mid field you've out paced the thing and thats where most of the combat happens, never mind the fact that most of the hard hitting and useful stuff in your army (baring Grave Guard) is way too fast to be able to benefit from it. Which brings me to my next point.


Ok, here is the first difference, this is a game vs Warriors of Chaos, there is not need for the undead to try and close the difference. As this includes your caster bunker et al the chaos scum will have to close with you. Second you can speed it up with Vanhels, and by keeping formation you can do that with the whole formation.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

If you are using Grave Guard, you are probably using great weapons. Buffing them with ASF means they cancel out the ASL and they strike at initiative. Which is only 3. This means absolutely nothing against Warriors of Chaos and Elves. They still strike before you and will rip you to shreds anyway. Again, buffing skeletons and the like adds almost nothing to their effectiveness on the battlefield.


Yes this is true if you single out the specific instance of Grave Guard with great weapons, and Bacon does field them. However the I3 great weapon attack still swing before a number of problematic including Chaos Ogres, Juggernauts (but not their riders), Chimera and anything with a great weapon. Still it make Grave Guard with sword and shield a very viable choice, and they were already fairly good, it also augments ghouls very effectivelky, and Bacon does field those, and especially Crypt Horrirs which are highly recommended for his list. So no, its far from useless and remember that it works on characters too, so the vamps become ASF, and due to their high stats get rerolls that people don't like elves getting. Also this army is fighting high elves aswell, and mutual ASF is very handy when facing stuff like White Lions which can brutalise Grave Guard and Crypt Horrors both, with the corpse cart and a simple augment spell successfully cast (not always a given vs High Elves) things get very dicey for them. In fact getting rid of the corpse cart would become a priority and the vamps can exploit that. .

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

If you want to mitigate high initiative models, Bat Swarms are the way to go. It gives them ASL, they are quick enough to keep up with your infantry, and they can marchblock/bait/redirect. They are also cheaper than Corpse Carts.


You are right in that they are cheaper. But let us look at what you are asking to do .A minimum investment is 70pts for two swarms, quite expensive actually. T2 swarms that don't take well to S3 arrows and dont get a lot back from Nehek, vs WoC read this as horribly vulnerable to a chaff killing magic missile spell. Presumably you want to send these into the flank of a unit, or share room with the front, so the opponent, admittedly going last can gleefully smack the unarmoured T2 bats for extra crumble on everyone. Leave bats well alone, if you want some for theme have them support a flanking skeleton unit, the extra losses you will take wont matter so much and they can support in. Finally bats give ASL to one unit for 70pts, corpse carts give ASF to any number of units in range for 90pts, and bestowing ASF is superior to bestowing ASL as you get to augment the units that need it, not what the opponent chooses to engage you with, and in certain circumstances gain rerolls as a side effect.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I'd also like to add that a standard Vampire doesn't come anywhere near the effectiveness of a Blender Lord. Blender Lords will carry the day, they aren't part of your army...they are your army. Blender Lords will absolutely win Challenges, and completely destroy any kind of rank and file unit. Chaos Lords are tough for sure, but here's the thing...no one takes them. Everyone takes Aspiring Champions and Daemon Princes. Either way, a Blender Vamp can and will beat all of those things. But it's still a bad Idea to put your General into a position where he can die, because that could crumble your whole army. Just use his champion of Chaos rule against him and feed him champions every turn while you summon them back, and then beat his unit down with your Vampire Lord.


I don't agree here allowing for the choice of opponent. In general terms the stock blender build is very effective and worth taking. However Warriors of Chaos is one of the factions that does offer counters, and can simply outmuscle even a blender. Its not a sure thing, but unless your game is very large the blender will be the general
I don't know where you get the idea that nobody takes Chaos lords, in my experience Daemon Prince are much rarer. Daemon Princes are gimped by a very poor item limit, and a statline little better than a chaos lord. There are several combos of items mutation and marks that can build a chaos lord capable of going toe to toe with a blender lord, and remember that the chaos lord can afford the price of failure. Also Eye of the Gods while it doest force challenges to be accepted doesn't dictate who accepts them. On the off chance that a vampire is facing a chaos champion not set up to handle them, usually a sorcerer, the unit champion can take up the gauntlet.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The leadership 10 can be invaluable when considering things like frenzy, swift reform and Death Magic. Leadership 7 just does not cut it.


That doesn't require a blender build. Frenzy is only really a problem for vargheists and they are often outside the bubble anyway, everything else you can suck up and claw back later with Nehek.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The main reason why a regular Vampire does not have even have half of the effectiveness of a Lord is because he has to sacrifice either ASF or Strength from a magic weapon. He can't have both Quickblood, Red Fury and the Ogre Blade. And that is what makes the combo so effective. This is on top of the fact that he is very fragile. He will die quickly.


ASF from a corpse cart, ++ from Mortis engine, several vampires, red fury all round, or even just for one. Multi blend or blend on the cheap. The blender lord build is one guy, the bunkerline and cart setup can provide large scale mini-blend as a fringe benefit.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Death Magic can be very effective in a Vampire Counts army, and it's my personal favourite lore. But you definitely need a level 4 caster for it to get all the good spells. You can create a seriously scary leadership bomb army with Lore of Death, Aura of Dark majesty, Fear incarnate and the Screaming Banner. This would obviously benefit more from using units like Terrorgeists and Banshees. Hopefully you roll Doom and Darkness, that spell is a game changer and has won me countless battles.


Not seeing where we disagree there.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Remember though, your general has to take lore of Vampires.


Or here.


I think the main problem you have here Brutus is that points don't grow on trees. Blenders are very nasty, they are also extremely pricey even as a level 1, you immediately start looking at secondary lord level characters to back him up, perhaps taking up your whole 25%. Your vital magic support begins to suffer. When you do that you have eaten up half your army allowance with the mandatory core, which just about every Vampire Counts player keeps to the minimum. Blenders are great but you must have the points remaining to feed into special choices and either T-bat or Mortis engine, and you will likely lack in secondary characters. I will however say that Warriors of Chaos can suffer against powerful character builds because they lack any real cheap tarpit option in the list, its not a poor move to take a stock blender, but I think there are better ones against WoC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 01:34:53


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Thank you both for your input, it's very helpful. Orlanth is correct, I tend to wait for the WoC to come to me so I can build up my units with invocation, set up favourable engagements etc so I could see many of the draw backs of a corpse cart being negated by that. I do tend to run GG with great weapons and tend to face warriors with halberds so I could definitely see the benefits of sword and board asf.

Orlanth, I see what you're saying about not basing opinions on a few instances, but they were actually pretty good examples. One battle they wilted like tissue paper in a toilet, the second battle they held out like a wall, I don't expect to rely on them by any means, it's just a welcome surprise when they do end up road blocking. I must say that the cart is starting to sound rather attractive, I currently have a 30 strong horde of ghouls in my army, I'm planning on adding 6-9 horrors and maybe even another unit of ghouls. My opponents favoured chaos build is heavily elite, small units of chaos warriors with marks tailored to their separate roles, he's also running a shaggoth, chaos ogres, I think he's planning on adding a dragon mounted lord with 3++ and eye of tzeentch (reroll'ing 1s). I don't want to counter build him completely, my competitive days of whfb are long since past, but I don't want to be completely creamed.

Honestly I was just running the death vamp for doom and darkness which I got, I had 4 other lore of vamps wizards (which I see now was a mistake) since it was a 3k point game. I'm thinking of adding a lore of shadows vamp as you suggested or maybe a lore of beasts vamp to augment my crypt horrors

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 13:52:21


 
   
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Ok Bacon, as for memories of effectiveness yes you can get skewed turns but by and large you will be able to guesstimate how many skels you will lose a turn against a certain type of opponent. double that and dvidie the total by the unit size and that is the number of combat turns your block will hold. Its fairly reliable all told.

I have both sword and board and great weapon Grave Guard, the latter need no babysitting, however it is difficult to stop a Vampire list from getting a spell off that targets the corpse cart unless you make an early big cast and miscast or roll extra crap for the magic dice. Its not foolproof but it is reasonably reliable, as much as anything is in warhammer. And a small tip, present your corpse cart side on to the enemy, it will stretch out the 6" bubble nicely. It looks odd but is effective, I forget to do this myself half the time.

Two other things to help you with and to wrap up:


How to get the most out of Red Fury.

Something else I should expostulate on a bit more. Red Fury is nasty, and very effective and boosts your killing ability without taking up your magic weapon slot, same with Quickblood. However it is very easy to overestimate. red Fury requires successful wounds in order to generate more attacks, this means no matter how good your vampire is, if you miss, fail to wound, or the wound is saved, no red rage. Now vampires of all stripes are so hot that none of the aforementioned is likely, and you can usually reach the optimum 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no effective saves which is the upper cap for nearly everything. However all this reasonably assumes you are slaughtering rank and file, with characters you can never be sure. Now a vampire can easily get to S6-8 and make sure T is not an issue, or armour saves for that matter. Ward saves are another problem though, even parry saves place a small brake on the damage output, a 4++ more so. Other Trickster's Shard helps, but can only take you so far. Red Fury is awesome but it isn't necessarily a win button unless you chose your targets right, its a bully's tool, not a weapon for a fair fight.

Most armies have an item that can cause red fury a *LOT* of problems in a straight up fight. Good examples include Sirienne's locket for the Bretonnians, Van Holstmann's Speculum for Empire. Unless you are running Kemmler in your list you wont know when you are facing one of the challenge trap characters. Even certain units are a problem. Face Phoenix Guard and suddenly a blender is on the brakes, you will still likely win, but not on your preferred timeframe.


A warning on nasty Chaos Lord builds.

There are three main builds to watch out for:

1. Helm lords - Based around Helm of Many Eyes. This cheap 25pt item gives ASF and +1save as a magic helmet, it also rants stupidity but that isnt normally a problem as it will not cut in while engaged in combat and Ld is normally high enough to pass anyway. This item is very nasty as it provides the +1 to base save that people like to get out of the magic armour allowance, forgoing the need for enchanted shield, and like Quickblood grants ASF without taking up the weapon to do so, or being an elf. From there a multitude of marks weapons and defences can be taken to make a character is is bad to be around. Normally this is the enabler to make sure a Khorne lord gets a look in as a top end character killer. Khorne builds dont work on defence beyond the normal 4++ for a stock lord, but on ASF Ws8 and hitting harder that whatever is in front of it, something Khorne is uniquely suited for. Of the three is the most risky for the Chaos player as it matches rather than trumps a vampire lord, it is still wiorks going for it though as even odds (in fact slightly better than even odds) is well worth it allowing for the comparartive stakes involved.

2. Invincible disk lords - With the strong possibility that 'disk' is a typo. This build normally rides a disk in order to make sure it can fly up and challenge what needs challenging, the disk itself provides little to the defences beyond the mundane cavalry armour bonus This build is fast moving very annoying and hard to eradicater, hence the reputation. It revolves around the ease by which a champion of Tzeentch can get a 3++, and then adds the demon power Third Eye of Tzeentch which causes ward saves rolls of 1 to be rerolled. On top of this other than the 4++ itself, which is purchased from the standard issue suppliers for a lord level character, most of the components that make up their build are fairly cheap, Third Eye costs on 10pts, so there is plenty of allowance left to tool up with an array of brutal accessories to hit back with. Stubborn is often a taken upgrade to ensure that the disk lord can troll a whole bus of nasty stuff by itself. By and large this build doesn't even bother with ASF as it doesn't fear striking last. Now Other Tricksters Shard mitigates this build somewhat, but not anywhere near enough to make Red Fury pay off, and remember its still a chaos lord, it will be hitting you as hard and about as often as you hit it. This build is referred to in some circles as a Hortensse lord, I don't really know why.

3. Unhittable Nurgle lords - Similar in concept to the Tzeentch lord above, but smellier and going about it a different way. Normally this revolves around the Ws8 of the Chaos lord to ensure just about everything hits on a 4+, then adds Mark of Nurgle and Glittering Scales; to ensure that almost everything can only hit the Chaos Lord on a 6+, this includes a blender, and he wont be getting any reroll from ASF either. It can be offset by boosting but most methods involve swapping weaponry, which a vamp cant afford to do. Again the powers involved are cheap, Mark of Nurgle plus a 25pt item, so there is plenty of room for the 4++ and nasty sword. Scaly skin makes up for the light armour, and the 4++ normally comes from Talisman of Preservation. Often this build rides a Palanquin to further boost armour save (not that it needs it and to deter Killing blow). This can be good news as you can then see the threat coming and be elsewhere. Again ASF is possible but not considered necessary, and isn't very Nurgly anyway.

It is interesting that the hallmark for a successful Chaos Lord build is how well does it do against certain key opponents. Two come to mind time and again and are used as the benchmark, first the Bloodthirster and second the stock Blender Lord. Both the Tzeentch and Nurgle builds have a reputation of being able to takes down a blender once they have got it into challenge 'in two turns'. I haven't ever done so myself, but the builds are repeated with sufficient frequency both on the Chaos and Vampire forums, on one as a recommendation at the other as a dire warning. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

It is fair to say that because the blender Vampire Lord is the benchmark by which a combat Chaos Lord is measured against shows the high value of the blender, but it also gives you are clear indication of when not to field one, or at least when to be very careful if one does.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/06 15:25:13


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
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Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

I understand what your saying but why would the chaos lord pick directly influence your build of vampire? I could just avoid an engagement between the two of them and try to tarpit the lord with a skellie block/horrors, while they may be nigh unkillable they sacrifice hitting power, I'm aware they are still hitting hard but both of those set ups will struggle to chew through units as fast as the blender can
   
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

BaconUprising wrote:
I understand what your saying but why would the chaos lord pick directly influence your build of vampire? I could just avoid an engagement between the two of them and try to tarpit the lord with a skellie block/horrors, while they may be nigh unkillable they sacrifice hitting power, I'm aware they are still hitting hard but both of those set ups will struggle to chew through units as fast as the blender can


That was not what was being sold to you, but the ideal that the blender can chew through characters or destroy units on his own. This is only partly true.

Now a blender is very likely to be more costly than its counterparts. starting at 400pts for a level 1 Vampire lord with Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Ogre Blades and Other Tricksters Shard, plus some mundane equipment, and uip to 20pts to spend on further powers.

The Chaos lords actually cost less and are nastier under the circumstances. Yes they are not as good at killing rank and file, hence why they share top tier, but are better in challenges, and this is where they want to be.

One particular build of unkillable Nurgle lord need Mark of Nurgle, and Glittering Scales, Talisman of Preservation and up to 30pts weapon, usually Sword of Anti-Heroes. Then adds Scaled Skin and Soulfeeder for a total of 350pts. We havent added a mount yet and the build as it stands will very likely kill your vampire lord, or anything else you throw at it, or it gets to hunt down. other builds following nurgle or other gods work as well, will be often cheaper than a level 1 blender and very able to kill him.
While all of these are likely to be general choices, none will force crumble if they die.

Now if you want to use a blander properly it means finding blocks that are the investment in time destroying and doing so. This noprmally would therefore mean Chaos Warriors, and those guys are die hards. yes a blender can kill rank and file Chaos Warriors with the normal 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no effective save, though they may get a 6++. However they wont die quickly or easily, and by the time they have the chaos lord will have tracked you down. Indeed it could be very possible for the chaos player to get their chaios lord in base to base before you have managed to kill one warrior block.

Assuming that is not what you want to do, what do you want to blend? Dogs?

Now mini-blenders on the other hand, hero level vampires with red fury are semi-expendable and can take a massive chunk out of a chaos warrior unit, alone if necessary, and more to the point might not be worth getting the chaos general out of position for, wereas a blender lord will always be worth tracking down.
You can also mini-blend in your fighting bunker, relying on the cart to help you. Now you aren't doing what a blender lord can do, unit hunting, but you are performing the raw output in the battle line, are doing so on the cheap, and with backup of one or two other cheap vampire heroes who are doing exactly the same thing.

Three level 1 hero vamps, a cart, a solid block of ghouls, plus you choice of special line units is way more devastating than a blender lord, as the vampires can all blend together. Use unit champions to absorb the challenges, which you can recover and recycle via Nehek and use your vamps to carve out the units from around the champions.

Its your choice of defensive special choices that will provide you with the victory. Grave Guard with great weapons are a very good start. Corpse cart is a strong key. Back that up with Mortis or T-bats and be careful with your character spending. The undead are independent of the Ruinous Powers, keep it that way, as Nagash intended.





n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
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Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

My chaos opponent uses tzeentch build on a daemonic mount/dragon. So you suggest 3 or so lv 1 mini-blenders supported by a lv 4 necro for magic and maybe a lv 2 to support him? Core infantry large skellie blocks, crypt ghouls for more hitting power and monster killing, at least 1 decent sized unit of crypt horrors (I was thinking to support these with lore of beasts), corpse cart and some black knights and a T-gheist, grave guard block with banner of barrows and maaaybe a mortis engine if the points will allow it?

Another question, if I do chose to run a mortis, should it be paired with the corpse cart, or run on a flank? I'm guessing anywhere where it's ++ will be most useful, asf crypt horrors and ghouls with a 5++ is pretty tempting
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Orlanth brings up some very good points.

I don't know where you get the idea that nobody takes Chaos lords, in my experience Daemon Prince are much rarer. Daemon Princes are gimped by a very poor item limit, and a statline little better than a chaos lord.


This must be meta dependant. I haven't seen someone field a Chaos Lord since 6th edition. Daemon Princes are super powerful in 8th, thats basically all I saw. The Nurgle Prince or the Slaanesh Caco-bomb prince are absolute game winners. Their 25 point item limit is fine. The only need the Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem. The rest they can get from Daemonic Gifts to make a super build.

My criticisms of units like the corpse cart come from a pragmatic approach to list building. The more requirements a unit needs to function properly on the field, the less I want it. With the corpse cart I need reliance on multiple AoE's and magic to allow it to keep up with the army.

One Blender Lord is expensive. But he's over 50% more effective offensively on his own and far more durable. Especially considering other said vampires are on foot. Once you've added two standard vampire's you are looking at approximately the same cost.

Thank you both for your input, it's very helpful. Orlanth is correct, I tend to wait for the WoC to come to me so I can build up my units with invocation, set up favourable engagements etc so I could see many of the draw backs of a corpse cart being negated by that. I do tend to run GG with great weapons and tend to face warriors with halberds so I could definitely see the benefits of sword and board asf.


I'd like to point out that units cannot be summoned past their starting size, if that's what you meant about building up your units with invocation.

I think that you should still run great weapons on your grave guard. It's not a unit that you want to charge into because it's a genuine threat to almost everything in the game. Especially the low initiative monsters that WoC have if you are in fact running a corpse cart.

If your opponent is running a Tzeentch lord on a dragon. Don't target the Lord, just kill the dragon and hope he breaks from combat rez. You could try casting Doom and Darkness on him to increase your odds. Statistically the Tzeentch Lord is VERY hard to kill. You could get a lucky Killing Blow through though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/06 18:49:13


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AoS is pure garbage
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Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

i mean skellie blocks with necro+master of the dead when I say increasing unit sizes. And yeah that tzeentch lord is extremely hard to remove from the field
   
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

BaconUprising wrote:
My chaos opponent uses tzeentch build on a daemonic mount/dragon.


Thats not uncommon, mobility is assured and its overkill on the challenge. However its not actually necessary, you could buy two disk lords for the points. Is it th Ergrimm van Horstmann model?
Anyways there isnt much you can do about that, you just have to keep it fed.


BaconUprising wrote:

So you suggest 3 or so lv 1 mini-blenders supported by a lv 4 necro for magic and maybe a lv 2 to support him?


That would be fairly good for 3k. The necro is the general, he will come to about 300pts when all is said and done, 4++ and a decent arcane item.. That cant be helped. While on this take a look at Kemmler, he isn't an automatic pick but not a bad choice. A level 4 is 200pts naked, and you nermally want add ons to that. With Kemmler you get ld9 general and the cloak makes him very survivable even though he has no ward save. Never take Krell though, he is way overpriced, use the model and theme if you like, but just make him a wight king with great weapon using Krell's name. I wouldnt bother though, chaos is a difficult opponent and at 3k they can afford some very nasty character builds so you cant affrod to fluff out.

As fro the mini-blenders, the cart makes them blend. level 1 Nehek with Red Fury and Sword of Might works for one, but you cant afford to keep that up. a second level 1 or 2 Lore of Vampires and a third level 1 shadows for the lore attribute.

At 3k you can afford add two wraiths, be careful with them, keep them back and out of combat then add them to selected existing fights out of base contact with any characters, let them block off a file of incoming hits, anything solely in base to base with them without a magical attack wont be contributing to casualties inflicted, if the units character is challenge baited and your vampire is left to slaughter rank and file it may be easy to starve the opponent of combat res and win outright. Especially if the unit concerned are Grave Guard with the second rank swinging.

BaconUprising wrote:

Core infantry large skellie blocks, crypt ghouls for more hitting power and monster killing,


Take ghouls and skeletons in a 1:1 ratio and stop at 25% minus any deductions for any dire wolves you take.

BaconUprising wrote:

at least 1 decent sized unit of crypt horrors (I was thinking to support these with lore of beasts)


Not a bad idea, but not as good as supporting them with Nehek and Hellish Vigour/Venhels. You will need a Forbidden lore vampire, but he only needs level 1, and its an excuse for an extra mini-blender when the cart kicks in. That vamp would have to be extra not instead of the existing lineout. getting expensive but could be worth it.

BaconUprising wrote:

, corpse cart and some black knights and a T-gheist, grave guard block with banner of barrows and maaaybe a mortis engine if the points will allow it?


That would work, though double T-bat or double Mortis is better than one of each. I am entirely hypocritical here, run one of each, but then i am a collector first and a player second. A Mortis engine was a must have, so was a T-bat, but I didnt feel the need to collect two of either.
Double Mortis means a very respectable 5+ regen all round, and the 4+ crypt horrors plus creeping area damage over time.. Double T-bat means double scream, and that requires no interpretation.

It is hard to recommend one over the other, lets see. the dragon is a big problem as I now know he can choose targets that he pleases, and that is likely to mean he will go for the Mortis if he can. an early game Mortis engine explosion is a damp squip, late game when Mortis pops you will lose the cart, and likely the other Mortis engine but not your units if you kept Nehek up and built them big enough, it will also devastate the chaos army fighting you. All in all its worth it. Its not unlikely the double explosion will get rid of the dragon if not the rider.
I would stick to advice already given and keep a skeleton block in reserve capable of tarpitting, it sounds like you will need to to lock down the dragon.

Double T-bat is simpler but the same problem arises, the dragon will hunt them down. T-bats despite their enormous size are quite fragile and need to get in close, also with the close infighting list we are looking at here there might not be room for it in scream range unless it flanks, and then gets smacked by an exalted champion. T-bats crumble easy. they work best in lists where you can be on the offensive, Warriors of chaos has the potential to be very mobile and this list has a dragon.

All told I would go with double Mortis. It synergises will with everything else you are doing and crypt horrors love them. they also wont need lore of beasts. Even one Mortis engine will be of use but two will make your army very solid. remember the bestowed 5++ regen will apply to the vampires too, comboing with the cart to make them emulate far more expensive characters than they are. Two Mortis engines means two ghostly howls, so together you get the firepower of an honourary T-bat, more or less. It you go this route Seed of Rebirth on one of your vamps is a no brainer for 10pts.

BaconUprising wrote:

Another question, if I do chose to run a mortis, should it be paired with the corpse cart, or run on a flank?


Create a parking lot behind th main line. Range of their respective augments is fairly small. Your army will need to be magic heavy, not only for the neheks you will have to cast but in order to generate the threat. You must make it imperative that the Chaos player attacks your bunker, brings the fight to you, Curse of Years is the sort of threat that grabs attention. Your army is a hell of a lot weaker if it has to split up.

BaconUprising wrote:

I'm guessing anywhere where it's ++ will be most useful, asf crypt horrors and ghouls with a 5++ is pretty tempting


Your entire line, and not just the ghouls will get a 5++ with two, crypt horrors start with 5++ get a 4++ with just one Mortis engine.


How to use your fighting line.

Try and engage an enemy unit with a nasty character in it with two of your own. You will suffer double crumble but done well it will be worth it. Make sure each unti has a champion. Always allow the chaos player to issue challenge, never do so yourself. Most likely the tooled up Champion will challange, accept with a unit champion. It dies, on the next combat turn accept challenge from the other unit champion. You will feed the opponent Eye of the Gods, but that cannot be helped. In your turn you bring back both unit champions with the first Nehek, as champions are the first model to return. So long as the units last you can keep a chaos lord or axalted champion too tough to handle (most will be) in a perpetual loop. If the Chaos player gets wise and tries to use their heavy character to kill rank and file reemmber you are better at that then they are, and uyou can accept the mandatory challenge with a character of your own, a wraith is fine as it cant lose, and get rid of this option.
Meanwhile your vampire in the fight, or two if you can mini-blend away and cut out the unit from under the chaos character. Sooner or later they will be taking break tests. This tactic is far from certain, but it is a plan and it can work.






I'm guessing anywhere where it's ++ will be most useful, asf crypt horrors and ghouls with a 5++ is pretty tempting





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:

This must be meta dependant. I haven't seen someone field a Chaos Lord since 6th edition. Daemon Princes are super powerful in 8th, thats basically all I saw. The Nurgle Prince or the Slaanesh Caco-bomb prince are absolute game winners. Their 25 point item limit is fine. The only need the Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem. The rest they can get from Daemonic Gifts to make a super build.


I will accept that. It must be variations in local meta. There is a daemon prince equivalent on the unhittable lord for instance, working pretty much the same way. Chaos Lords are more flexible and cheaper though th price differences are fairly minor. Daemons have Thunderstomp and are unbreakable, but their defences are weaker, unhittable Nurgle combos excepted. Chaos Lords on the other hand can have a decent ward save, which a daemon prince lacks. Unhittable Nurgle doesnt effect cannon balls, there is no opportuinity to join a unit etc and a Chaos Lord can focuas the killing power of a daemon prince, more or less on a 25mm frontage, in a unit.
It is good that there was a measure of balance between them, both were somewhat overpowered in 8th.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

My criticisms of units like the corpse cart come from a pragmatic approach to list building. The more requirements a unit needs to function properly on the field, the less I want it. With the corpse cart I need reliance on multiple AoE's and magic to allow it to keep up with the army.


I hear that also, however the triggering conditions to get Vigour Mortis are very easy to achieve.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

One Blender Lord is expensive. But he's over 50% more effective offensively on his own and far more durable. Especially considering other said vampires are on foot. Once you've added two standard vampire's you are looking at approximately the same cost.


Blender lords have the advantage they can operate independently.However versus Warriors of Chaos you don't want to do that! Just about any other opponent go ahead, but the indy blender lord is prey to the mortal servants of the dark gods.


 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I think that you should still run great weapons on your grave guard. It's not a unit that you want to charge into because it's a genuine threat to almost everything in the game. Especially the low initiative monsters that WoC have if you are in fact running a corpse cart.


So do I. But now you know why grave guard with sword and board are not to be laughed at. I have both, and havent looked back.


 Brutus_Apex wrote:

If your opponent is running a Tzeentch lord on a dragon. Don't target the Lord, just kill the dragon and hope he breaks from combat rez.


I am going to have to assume the chaos player will be smarter than that. What will kill the dragon? You could try and scream it, but the dragon would likely survive and you will lose the T-bat quickly. a blander or several mini blenders can do the job, but you will get challenged and killed by the lord. Feeding it a large enough skeleton unit with or without a 5++ will quieten it.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You could try casting Doom and Darkness on him to increase your odds. Statistically the Tzeentch Lord is VERY hard to kill. You could get a lucky Killing Blow through though.


Chasing Doom and Darkness requires level 4 death to pull off with any degree of certainty. Although this army is big enough for Lord Mannfred, we really cant afford that either. We could, but the whole list would have to be rewritten around him.
Aura of Dark Majesty nearby is another possibility, but it not reliable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/06 20:10:34


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Hypothetically speaking if he does take the Blender Lord he should be able to kill the Dragon before the Chaos Lord strikes, then be able to last at least a few rounds with the Chaos Lord himself before either killing the lord or being killed. But that leaves you time to manoeuvre other units in place.

Vampire Strikes First: Assuming Ogre Blade, Red Fury, Quickblood, 1+/4++

Hits vs. Dragon: 3.35 hits + 1.1 with rerolls = 4.45 hits
Wounds vs. Dragon: 2.98 wounds. So basically 3 wounds.
No Armour saves from strength 7.
Generating 3 more attacks.
Hits vs. Dragon: 2.01 hits + .67 with rerolls = 2.68 hits.
Wounds Vs. Dragon: 1.8 wounds.
Total 4.78 wounds.
Statistically not enough to kill the dragon.

Chaos Lord Attacks: Not sure what he's equipped with but lets assume strength 7, 1+/3++ re-roll 1's.
Hits Vs. Vampire: 3.35 hits
Wounds Vs. Vampire: 2.78 wounds
Armour Save: 1.86 wounds
Ward Save: .93 wounds.
Total: 1 wound

Chaos Dragon Vs. Vampire:
Hits Vs. Vampire: 3 hits
Wounds Vs. Vampire: 2.01
Armour Save: 1
Ward Save: .5
Total .5 wounds.
No Thunderstomps Vs. Cavalry.

Vampire Wins combat by 3.25 wounds. Possibly causing the Chaos Lord to flee on leadership 5 or 6 depending on number of wounds caused. This is made even better if you take a Level 4 Necromancer with Death for Doom and Darkness. Also if you run a unit of Black Knights like me you also have +1 combat res for rank, +1 for Banner and if you're lucky +1 for charging.

Next turn the vampire will kill the dragon and the extra generated hits will start going into the Chaos Lord. You can also start regaining wounds with Invocation and by just casting spells in general.

There's also terrogeists for this kind of thing.

Also, I wasn't suggesting taking the Blender Lord by himself. I always run mine in a unit of Black Knights.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/06 21:37:45


Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

It will be an ongoing challenge so the Black Knights have to watch. The Chaos Lord could break after the dragon dies, if the build is done right he is Stubborn.

Frankly I wouldn't use a dragon. Disk!! This problem wouldnt happen.

If Stubborn you are still in a challenge with a Tzeentch lord, you exchange your vampire lord general for a dragon. Still a risky trade, unless you take two vamp lords.


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yep, Stubborn Disk lord is a whole other thing. lol

Don't touch that guy! If he only has a great weapon you might be able to tie him up with some wraiths.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Disc lords normally rock a mundane great weapon, the essentials take up 100pts on the nose.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

And vs a gunline force, for example warmachine heavy dwarfs or empire black powder. How does a vampire counter it? Mortis engines and corpse carts would be shot to pieces, as would glass cannon terrorgheists, ethereal roadblocks can also get eaten by dwarf artillery, I'm aware that crypt horrors can block shots, but they can't be everywhere
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

You dont use the same tactics as we have discussed here.

A mounted vampire mini blender is recommended, stock blenders are overkill.

Take dire wolves, and spirit hosts and use raise dead if you get it to harass war machine crews.

Aura of Dark Majesty is crucial, as is hunting down the Empire BSB.

You dont need to augment your undead troops much against Empire anyway, skeletons vs state troops is a fair exchange. So leave the corpse casrt behind.

Mortis engine is good though, but use it more aggressively, especially on or after turn three.

Dwarves are somewhat more problematic but again close and heal along the way. Take a stock blender if you want to go that route.

In both cases of screen of zeds is a good idea while you close. Only use genuine zombies for your zombie wall, not skeletons or ghouls, you want extra Nehek to kick in.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Well, thank you for the help. I played 3 matches yesterday and today and won all 3 resoundingly. First vs Chaos, second Dwarfs and third vs high elves.

My 2k points list for all 3 matches was:
General: Master Necro, lv 4, talisman of preservation, earthing rod, dispel scroll, master of the dead (in skeletons)
Hero:
Vampire: Red fury, lv 2, book of arkhan, seed of rebirth, heavy armour, enchanted shield (in grave guard)

Vampire: lv 1, Red fury, bsb, armour of destiny, shield (in crypt ghouls)

30 grave guard: banner of the barrows, full command, great weapons

6 Crypt Horrors: Haunter

Corpse Cart

30 Crypt Ghouls: Ghast

50 Skelletons: Full command

Mortis Engine: Blasphemous tome


My deployment was always pretty similar every game I just changed it up vs dwarfs to avoid the artillery by hiding my mortis engine, corpse cart and general bunker behind LoS blocking terrain. My general was sat in the skellie bunker at the very back behind the grave guard (who formed the left flank) who I figured would probably be unlikely to let anything through. I had my corpse cart sat on the right side of the grave guard, my crypt horrors in the centre and my crypt ghouls slightly staggered behind my horrors so as to remain within 12" of my general and within 6" of my corpse carts vigour mortis. My mortis Engine was parked directly behind my horrors so my entire army was benefitting from its ++ and all 3 casters were getting the tome buff to casting.

The match vs elves I was up against a unit of 50 spearmen with a elf lord and banner bearer with world dragon banner, supported by a lore of beasts lv 4 mage in a unit of 20 archers, a prince on a gryphon, 6 silver helms and some swords masters. I got vanhels, hellish vigour, invocation and curse of years. I got the first turn, moved everything up, increased my skellies by 8, got off vanhels and Ofc triggered the corpse carts ability. He charged my crypt ghouls on the far right flank with his 6 silver helms, charged my horrors with his spearstar, charged my grave guard with his swords masters and flank charged my horrors with his gryphon noble. He also attempted to cast wyssans wildform on the spearmen which I dispelled and amber spear on my mortis engine which failed to wound. On the right flank, my vampire hit before his silver helms and killed 2 of them, they in turn killed 2 Crypt ghouls and saved all of my ghouls attacks before breaking and fleeing, my ghouls reformed to charge into the gryphon next turn. My horrors took 8 wounds vs the spearstar, my vampire killed 5 spearmen and the horrors killed 7 more, his general (who was in a challenge with my haunter), dealt 1 wound and received none, I lost the combat and took a couple of wounds, I had 3 horrors remaining. The grave guard lost 5 to the swordsmasters before they and the vampire wiped them out in one turn and reformed to charge the spearstar. In addition, his archers failed to cause any wounds to the mortis engine. At some point his silver helms also rallied

In my turn I cast 2 invocations neither of which was successfully dispelled and restored all 5 of my grave guard, both of my crypt ghouls, brought my horrors back up to 4 models, all at full wounds and again triggered my corpse cart, I rolled a 7 for my mortis engine and caused 2 casualties to the spearmen unit with the relic. My ghouls charged his gryphon noble, my grave guard flank charged the spearstar. My vampire and ghouls successfully killed the noble and put 2 wounds on the gryphon while my horrors dropped to 2 models (the haunter was killed my the elf general) before killing 7 elves (after stomps), the grave guard and vampire killed a combined 16 elves causing them to rout of course killing the world dragon bsb. Fortunately for the spearstar they managed to escape my pursuing horrors. In his turn his 4 rallied silver helms again charged my ghouls, this time in the rear, his unit of spearmen also rallied and turned to face my pursuing horrors and grave guard. The elf mage attempted to cast wyssans wildform which was again dispelled but successfully amber speared my remaining 2 horrors (both at 1 wounds) killing them both. His silver helms managed 2 casualties to none in return and drew combat with my ghouls.

In my turn I miscast a 2 dice invocation which my general but luckily used earthing rod, I failed to get off anything of substance and my grave guard had already out paced my corpse cart at this stage although I did resurrect my grave guard back to full strength and got my skellies to around 60-65 models. My mortis engine moved up to support the grave guard with its aura. My ghouls and vampire finished off the gryphon and 2 silver helms, breaking them and sending them fleeing off the board before reforming to move up. In his turn he charged my grave guard and vamp with what remained of the spearstar, he also fired at the mortis engine but failed to cause any wounds, the lv 4 mage cast a 15+ amber spear on my general with a miscast and rolled a 3, killing himself and 5 of his unit, my master necro rolled a 4 on his war save and emerged unscathed. In combat he killed the vampire (who was already at one wound) and a couple of grave guard before the grave guard hit back killing 13 elves and running the remainder off the board which essentially ensured my win.

I'll post the other games if and when I can remember what happened

In all I really like how this list plays, it feels like a more traditional grinding vampire list although it has elements that hit every hard while sponging a lot of damage. The mini-blenders so far have worked really nicely, adding a good amount of extra punch to my frontline across a wider front than a single vampire lord blender. The corpse cart I have found incredibly useful since it's almost always active and due to the nature of my list and deployment is usually effecting most if not all of my units. The mortis engine 6++ on hordes of ghouls and grave guard also helped me to sponge LOTS of free hits and ultimately won me several combats. The damaging effects of the mortis weren't incredible but I can't say I was expecting too much and it made the crypt horrors hold for such a long time. The horrors were MVP 2/3 games and even against the elves neutralised the only real threat to my army and eventually beat them with some support. The grave guard were fantastic in every game, they chewed through every unit they came up against without breaking a sweat, the always strike last was somewhat irritating when coupled with their low initiative as they weren't able to gain any real benefit from vigour mortis, but strength 6 wounding usually on 2s while supported by vanhels was devestating. I think they play a better role as hammers in this list than they would as anvils. In terms on my master necro I know a lot of people don't like them but I was very impressed. By staying close to the mortis engine he was churning out masses of spells per turn keeping the vigour mortis and rerolls active while driving my usually slow army forward a lot faster.

If I were to change something I might consider switching the grave guard to sword and board turning them into an anvil unit so that they could actually benefit from the corpse cart while also making them more survivable. In turn, I'd change up the crypt horrors into an effective hammer unit (pair them with a forbidden lore: beast vampire, since I have a lot of vanhels casters anyway, with Staff of damnation (+1A) and wyssan's wildform to throw out 24 strength 5 poisoned attacks with rerolls per turn+3 strength 5 stomps with t6 and a 4++, if I'm lucky savage beast of horro's too to buff the vampire by +3A and +3S). I would also be very tempted to cut the necro's skellie bunker to 10 since they didn't see combat once in a single game and add another unit of crypt ghouls to the main line in their place.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/13 14:29:25


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Grave guard with great weapons and vigour mortis will come into their own versus the dwarfs, and any greenskin army you face, and still does the job with your vampire.

My only concern here is that you dont have any strength bonus for your vamps. I can see why because you have paid into defences. However Earthing Rod, even though it worked for you is a luxury. Your chance of being eaten by Khorne is low, low enough to just take, and taking wounds matters not too much because you can Nehek them back later.
I would give the Book of arkhan to the Necromancer lord, and buy a Sword of Might for a vampire.

S6 will make a difference, as will haing a magic weapon. I was a little surprised to see no magical melee attacks ijn your entire army, normally that is a bad idea. Now your faction is the one known to take Ethereals, and perhaps the other factions that do, like Wood elves and Daemons are not in your circle of players, in which case your local meta might not require anyone to take magic weapons (unless playing against you). Normally its a good idea to take at least one magic weapon somewhere.

Good army report, and glad to have helped.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

 Orlanth wrote:
Grave guard with great weapons and vigour mortis will come into their own versus the dwarfs, and any greenskin army you face, and still does the job with your vampire.

My only concern here is that you dont have any strength bonus for your vamps. I can see why because you have paid into defences. However Earthing Rod, even though it worked for you is a luxury. Your chance of being eaten by Khorne is low, low enough to just take, and taking wounds matters not too much because you can Nehek them back later.
I would give the Book of arkhan to the Necromancer lord, and buy a Sword of Might for a vampire.

S6 will make a difference, as will haing a magic weapon. I was a little surprised to see no magical melee attacks ijn your entire army, normally that is a bad idea. Now your faction is the one known to take Ethereals, and perhaps the other factions that do, like Wood elves and Daemons are not in your circle of players, in which case your local meta might not require anyone to take magic weapons (unless playing against you). Normally its a good idea to take at least one magic weapon somewhere.

Good army report, and glad to have helped.


I can see what you mean with the grave guard. Tbh my complaints are unfounded, they performed very well whenever they reached the opponents and are so easy to maintain at full strength, it's just frustrating only having a 5+. Vs the dwarfs they never actually got a chance to hit once since my opponent had conceded before they were able to attack.

In terms of the vamps magic weapons, I was hesitant to consider them since as you say I'm not facing any ethereal units and I wasn't actively avoiding magical attacks in case I went vs the elf spearstar with world dragon, I agree though sword of might/ogre blade could certainly make a big difference to my vampires output. I wanted them well defended since they are each essentially holding my flanks together by contributing to combat wins. In terms of the earthing rod, my reason to include it was the mortis engine. My general is almost always within 12" of the mortis for the +2 to casting but remember that causes you to reroll all miscast and then the opponent selects which applies. I wanted to ensure his safety since the entire list revolves around his ability to consistently throw out augments and proc the corpse cart. In the end I only had 1 miscast in 3 games so I guess it wasn't a huge deal and could maybe have been dropped.

I will start though, purple sun scares me A LOT. Say I'm vs a daemon prince with purple sun, he decides to fly into the centre of my army then 6 dices a purple sun, miscast with double 6, boom half my army gone in one fell swoop, nothing I can do about it, his daemon might die, but it'll take more than it's own points cost in units with it+the miscast will probably hurt me more than him anyway


The match vs the dwarfs lasted 3 turns I believe. He was running a bolt thrower, a stone thrower, an organ gun (I'm not good with dwarf artillery), a lot of quarrellers, a big block of 20 hammerers with his lord+shield bearers and a bsb thane, some warriors, some rangers. I know nothing about dwarfs but I'm assuming his list wasn't very strong, I think he also deployed too far forwards to be effective, this was probably my easiest match out of the 3. I got the first turn and got the centre of my line (corpse cart and mortis) hidden behind a big block of LoS blocking terrain in the centre, I staggered my generals unit so the flank of his unit where he was located was also hidden, again grave guard on the far left, ghouls on the far right, horrors slightly right of the centre so they could move around the impassable terrain. My first magic phase was meh, I rolled low and only got off a few spells, my general increased his skellies by 7 and activated the corpse cart I moved my horrors and ghouls on the right flank forward with vanhels but kept them just in the mortis range. In his turn he fired his stone thrower into my grave guard and direct hit my bsb but failed to wound, he hit 8 grave guard but only killed 5, his quarrellers killed 1-2 grave guard since they were beyond 1/2 range and obstructed. His organ gun killed 4 of my ghouls and his quarrellers/rangers another 3-4, the mortis engine protected them from a lot of damage for a 6++. His hammerers and general moved up to block my crypt horrors route to his artillery. My horrors charged into his hammerer unit, my ghouls hit a forward deployed ranger, my grave guard moved up to threaten his right flank, my corpse cart and mortis were vanhels'd into a position to support the ghouls/horrors. I rolled an 11 for winds of magic and channelled to 12 so got off almost every spell is attempted. The horrors ended up with asf, hellish vigour and vanhels for rerolls to hit and wound and my grave guard were ressurected back to full strength, to back it up the hammerers failed their fear test. My horrors went crazy on the hammerers and killed 13-14, I don't remember the exact number but it was a hell of a lot, in return they took a measly 2 wounds, the hammerers were stubborn so held, the ghouls killed the rangers and reformed to support the horrors next turn.

In his turn he shot at my mortis engine but again failed to get past it's saves, he killed a few of the ghouls who were now sat in the open but nothing major and his artillery failed to kill my corpse cart. In my turn I charged his quarrellers on the left flank with my grave guard, flank charged his hammerer unit with my ghouls and killed 2 more with my mortis engines combined relic and scream attack before wiping out his unit with my horrors including his general and bsb (I got off hellish and vanhels once again). At this point we agreed there was no real point in carrying on since his entire army was either engaged, obstructed or about to be killed, his only real combat unit including his general and bsb was dead and my army was actually larger than when it began the battle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/14 13:02:45


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Purple sun is a problem for any low initiative army. So it also cripples dwarfs, orcs and lizardmen. You don't have it especially bad, and you can get your people back, and your vampires are likely safe.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

I get what you're saying, VC's capacity to cope is a lot better than other armies, but if it wipes my mortis and or corpse cart the whole list starts to unravel. Same with the crypt horrors, they're not "hard" to heal but it's more effort than most other units and losing a lot of them at once could make my whole line start to collapse. It makes me question how flexible the list actually is. It's very hard for the opponent to finish off anything in it but if they do everything else starts becoming weaker. Vs chaos I did actually eat an overcharged purple sun from his sorcerer lord which went straight through my grave guard and ghouls, luckily it went at a weird angle and missed most of the units then sat in my rear and did nothing else of note. Luckily the grave guard then went on to chew through a 18 man unit of warriors with his lord and bsb bunkered in it and ran them down befor flank charging chaos knights who were trying to get round my flank.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/14 19:24:00


 
   
 
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