Switch Theme:

Can Come-the-apocalypse allies summon daemons  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Can come-the-apocalypse allies summon daemons?
Yes
No

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






I was under the impression they could, as they had access to daemonology. In this thread...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/721699.page#9289461

...I came across the opinion that as they are come the apocalypse allies, the summoned unit can't deploy within 12" when it is summoned in, therefore it can never deploy.

I was under the impression that the 12" rule means for deploying at the start of the game. If it didn't, it'd be pretty stupid to give space marines / guard access to daemonology malefic if they had no hope of summoning anything. I'm pretty sure that this is RAI regardless the fluff abomination it creates. There is also a BRB FAQ that addresses the issue, (for some reason specifically for space marines):

'Can Space Marines really summon Daemons? And even summon Daemons on a roll of 2+ using the Librarius Conclave’s Empyric Channelling?
A: Yes, to both questions'

I had thought it was relatively common knowledge that these factions could summon. Even one of the top 8 LVO lists had a summoning lib conclave, so it seems to be passable in tourneys.

If I'm wrong then I'm happy to be corrected, however! It wouldn't particularly disappoint me if they couldn't seeing as it's not that fluffy to have librarians magicking up plague drones etc. all the time haha

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 08:36:41


Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Just going to summarize the argument against CTA allies summoning from the other thread here.

1. All summoning spells in malefic are 12" range or shorter.
2. Summoned units arrive by deep strike.
3. Deep striking units count as deploying- "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then DEPLOY them as follows:"
4. CTA allies cannot deploy within 12" of each other and this is not limited to the deployment phase- "Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle"
5. As the FAQ is space marine specific it only gives them an exception to what is in the rulebook, not other CTA allies.

Also there could be a third option for what happens where the armies can summon but the summoned unit has to scatter outside of 12" of all units that they are CTA allies with or the summoned unit deep strike mishaps. If this option is the correct one then this could also be applied to space marines without contradicting the FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 09:39:44


Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





I´ll have a read up of my BRB at lunch time.

I agree with DoomMouse that the deployment of CTA restriction is for the deployment phase only.

You have no basis for even attempting to say that a CTA unit that ends up within 12" is an auto mishap when deep striking.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well since the faq says they can they can end of.

As to the deepstrike problem what happens well follow the normal process

Place a model

Scatter

Check Is the model within 12" of the CTA ally or on impassible terrain or enemy troops etc and so unable to deploy

If yes mishap if no deploy

Mishap role dice and hopefully enter ongoing reserves and next turn appear miles away from summoned where you want it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 09:36:13


 
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






I agree with the mishap thing not being reasonable. If a chaos unit summons a unit of bloodletters and it scatters to within 12 inches of a CTA ally, that'd imply that it'd mishap because of it. Seems pretty ridiculous.

That 12 inch rule just isn't supposed to make sense outside of the deployment phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/05 09:53:14


Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Well at any rate they mishap, but then you are most likely to just ds them in a legal spot next turn

Silly yes.. but there are a lot of silly in this game
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Which rule in the BRB are you using to determine that they mishap when deep striking within 12" though
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I don't know fluff wise makes sense to me the slightly corrupted space marines concious of how nasty demons can be is trying to summon them as far away as possible if they are accidently too close mishap (1) they close the portal/ kill the demons or send the portal spinning off across the battlefield to unleash the daemons elsewhere wither controlled ongoing reserves or panicked your opponent chooses.

As to rules it's a combination

Deep strike section "deploy them as follows" basically counts as deploying

Deep strike mishap section won't quote whole section but key parts are "if any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed" ... several but not all examples... "something has gone wrong role on the mishap table" in other words if you can't deploy its a mishap

Levels of alliance section on come the apocalypse allies
"May not deploy within 12" of each other"

So putting the three together deep striking is deploying and cta allies prevent deployment within 12" so will cause a mishap (unless they scatter out of 12")

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 10:59:56


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

BRB wrote:Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies,
but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

Emphasis mine.

So the real question is what does it mean to "deploy for battle" is that just the initial deployment, or does it include any deploying done during hte game?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well their is no specific definition of deploying for battle in the rulebook so raw their is no indicaton that the for battle part is to differentiate initial deployment and using common English I would say that all my troops regardless of when I deploy them are deployed for battle as that's the intention of bringing them to the game making the "for battle" part purely descriptive.

Which brings us back to the defined term deploying

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 11:16:39


 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ in 'The Turn' brief section of the rulebook may give us some hint:

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

This I think should suggest "deploy for battle" refers to pre-game deployment.
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Yes start of game deployment would be part of deploying for battle. That sentence doesn't limit it to just pre game deployment though. You would have to do those things before any deployment happens but that doesn't prevent deep striking from being deploying for battle. That stuff is obviously done before any deep striking could happen.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 roflmajog wrote:
Yes start of game deployment would be part of deploying for battle. That sentence doesn't limit it to just pre game deployment though. You would have to do those things before any deployment happens but that doesn't prevent deep striking from being deploying for battle. That stuff is obviously done before any deep striking could happen.


"You were supposed to do that rule before the game begins, before your your army deployed for battle. It's a bit late now it's turn two."
"But I still have a unit in Deep Strike Reserve. That means my army has yet to deploy for battle, so I can still do it."

Completely ridiculous, yes, but so is depriving a player of using their summoned Daemons because they didn't scatter at least 12" away.
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

No because you have to do it before any deploying for battle not just before part of it.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

A equals B
Does not mean C does not = A

The fact your army deploys for battle does not mean a reserve unit does not deploy for battle
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





So if my psykers are in reserve I can choose to roll for their powers once I have passed their reserve roll. Therefore my opponent can´t prepare himself by knowing which powers I have. I like the idea of that.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

No you role them before the game or at the point they manifest if they are created by conjuration see the generating psychic powers/ conjuration section's respectively therea
is no choice

And manifested is defined in the psychic phase as when the psychic test is passed and assuming the enemy failed to deny the witch (so before you attempt to deeps trike them) and so has nothing to do with deploying for battle

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 13:24:38


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

U02dah4 wrote:
No you role them before the game ....

Technically, you roll power "before deployment"....so if we are arguing that Deep Striking counts as deployment, you could argue that you don't have to roll once their reserve roll is passed and just before they are placed on the board.

I am firmly in the camp of "deploy for battle" being a direct statement about the pre-game deployment and therefore would not consider Deep Strike "deployment" for the purpose of CTA.

   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

You are also rolling for your powers before the game begins as well as before deploying for battle. The before deploying for battle is an extra clarification of when it happens not the only restriction.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 roflmajog wrote:
You are also rolling for your powers before the game begins as well as before deploying for battle. The before deploying for battle is an extra clarification of when it happens not the only restriction.


Do you genuinely think that or just trolling? Or just not even glanced in the direction of a rulebook?

Read the conjuration section

"If the new unit is a psyker, generate it's psychic power as soon as the conjuration is manifested"

That's not even remotely ambiguous. And nothing to do with deploying for battle

The only other section that reference's generating psychic powers says in bold "psykers generate their powers before the game begins" this clearly cannot apply to conjured daemons.

No where does it reference generating them before deployment that you made up (except by implication in that both passages must occur prior to deployment)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/05 14:17:44


 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Erm I was talking about normal psykers and galef's point about psykers in reserve rolling after the game has started, not summoned psykers. I was going by the rule quite posted by me shine earlier because I don't have access to my rulebook right now.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well for clarification this entire thread has been about summoned daemons but to use his quote of before the game begins= before the armies deploy the key point is "armies" not unit
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




You just stated that deploying for battle count the same as deploy in deep strike. But there is no evidence for this, they are completely different. They have different rules and regulations for how the process works. This is the case where you have to prove the link between two different rules. Just because they both use the same word deploy doesn't mean that they deploy in the same sense. Deploy is a very common military term and therefore cant really be used on its own to link these two rules, as they may not be related to one another. You also deploy from rhinos but that isn't expected to the exact same thing as deep strike.

Edited for grammer and poor voice recognition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/13 00:00:35


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Come the Apocalypse states that cannot deploy within 12" of each OTHER when THEY are DEPLOYING for battle.

This to me is stating that they cannot be deployed simultaneously within 12" of each other. This really only happens during deployment at the start of the battle.
Anything performing the process of deploying, come the first turn, have become deployed, they are no longer deploying, that has already been finished.

If you bringing summoned units, the other units on the board have been deployed, which is what happens when deploying has been completed, so, they are not currently deploying for battle. They have already been deployed for battle, the battle is in progress.

Only the NEW units are actually deploying. The other units are already deployed.
So they are not DEPLOYING within 12" of each other.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/13 00:39:03


 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Doesn't 'Reserves' say you deploy a unit into reserves? Thus even guys who are deep striking are already deployed: they were deployed into deep strike reserves.

Thus, when you're summoning, you're already well past deploying for battle.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I'm of the opinion that this is a "spell level" sort of argument (GW using the same word to mean different things to confusing effect, because nobody bothered to pick up a thesaurus).

The 'Come the Apocalypse Allies' heading reads (in full) "Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."

If the phrase "when they are deploying for battle" wasn't included the argument that you can't summon daemons would have a leg to stand on, but its inclusion seems to indicate (quite clearly, at least to me) that GW intended the Come The Apocalypse restriction to apply to normal pre-game deployment rather than to arriving from Reserves (even if they could have worded it more strongly).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Galef wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
No you role them before the game ....

Technically, you roll power "before deployment"....so if we are arguing that Deep Striking counts as deployment, you could argue that you don't have to roll once their reserve roll is passed and just before they are placed on the board.

I am firmly in the camp of "deploy for battle" being a direct statement about the pre-game deployment and therefore would not consider Deep Strike "deployment" for the purpose of CTA.

"Deployment" and "deploying" are two completely different things. The first is a noun and denotes the steps you take before the game begins that starts with the first unit being put on the board or declared in Reserves. The second is a verb used when a unit is placed on the board. It is specifically used in Deep Strike, Arriving From Reserves, and Outflank as well as in Deployment.

Des702 wrote:You just stated that deploying for battle count the same as deploy in deep strike. But there is no evidence for this, they are completely different. They have different rules and regulations for how the process works. This is the case where you have to prove the link between two different rules. Just because they both use the same word deploy doesn't mean that they deploy in the same sense. Deploy is a very common military term and therefore cant really be used on its own to link these two rules, as they may not be related to one another. You also deploy from rhinos but that isn't expected to the exact same thing as deep strike.

Edited for grammer and poor voice recognition.

Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.

I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




The key part is that it says...

"of each other when THEY are deploying for battle"
They is your other units and this unit.

Anything on the board has been deployed, it is not deploying.
Therefore any daemon summoned is not "deploying within 12" of each other" you have a deployed unit and an deploying unit.

Not two deploying units.
THEY will only both be deploying, in initial deployment.

They would have to make the One Eye Open roll but I don't see anything that would prevent their deploying.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/13 00:49:19


 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.

I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.


I am agreeing with you. I am confused why you quoted me for this as my statement somewhat mirrors yours.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Des702 wrote:
Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.

I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.


I am agreeing with you. I am confused why you quoted me for this as my statement somewhat mirrors yours.

Because you were indicating that the "deploy" in "deploy for battle" and "deploy from Deep Strike" were two separate or different things.

Your example didn't help because in game terms, you disembark from a Rhino, not deploy from it.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: