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Okay guys, so I am a long time fan of tabletop wargaming, primarily I have played 40k, I have recently discovered a wealth of WWII era games, the two biggest seem to be Flames of War and Bolt Action, what are you thoughts on them? Which is better (if either)? Just looking for info prior to pestering the wife to let me buy some to experiment with.

They're both good games although as you'll be able to see from the recent FoW threads the new edition is not enjoying universal acceptance.

Neither ruleset is overly complicated and both do not have enough plastics for most army to be 100% plastic so you'll need to be prepared to use resin or metal.

BA is 28mm and platoon sized. You'll usually have several squads of infantry and support adding up to 40-60 models as well as 1 or 2 vehicles. There is an expansion called Tank Wars if you want more vehicles but I don't see it regular played due to difficulty playing against infantry army (they often lack enough AT weapons).

FoW is 15mm and company sized. You built it around a company, which if infantry is 2-3 platoon of multibased infantry, and their support. You can play a tank company and the game handle infantry vs tank games well. FoW is also divided into 3 periods: early, middle and late in order to break up the game into stages as weapon technology improves throughout the war. Late War is usually the most popular but the new edition is working on mid war first.

I'd have a look and see which game is popular locally, especially for FoW where you need to see how players are feeling about 4th edition and what periods of the war are most popular/actually played. Then decide which scale you like best and how many tanks you want to help make up you mind.

I like the size of BA, I went today to my local gaming store, sadly noone seems to play either, the owner said it got super popular for a while, but then everyone just had armies of soviets with flamethrowers, so everyone just stopped playing. Thats at least for FoW, he said he has only ever seen BA once in the past many years. So, unless people secretly collect it in my area, I am SOL.

That's a shame. I know gaming clubs are less common in your country than mine but maybe you could look and see if there is a community outside of your LGS? Try places like the Bolt Action facebook group. Historical gamers don't always go to LGS as often as Fantasy/Sci gamers so it's worth having a look for clubs.

15mm is cheaper on average, depending on the manufacturer. 28mm however allows for more detail. ...Ah, though I'm not sure what your personal priorities are. You'll probably find it a lot easier to get your head around a 28mm game than a smaller scale one; unless you've played Games Workshop's similar titles (Bolt Action does operate differently than Warhammer in terms of the turn flow however).

There's plenty of rulesets out there besides those two, but those are the big ones on the high street. Depending on clubs you'll see all sorts of obscure stuff being played. As far as the actual presence of historical games at clubs, well I can't speak for that. My club plays literally everything, meanwhile others focus more on specific scales or periods. You'll find more often than not 40k's popular because that's the entry point for a lot of players these days, though perhaps that makes the transition to other 28mm games a bit easier than smaller scales (particularly in the case of the Bolt Action plastics range, not so much their metals, which are just as godawful as Games Workshop's when it comes to proportions).

Personally I only really play 28mm games. Mostly due to the conversion opportunities (and well for the visibility of the conversions, because well I don't need a magnifying glass ...least they aren't 2mm), but also just for cross compatibility of the models and terrain. Bolt Action has a load of expansions, and there's plenty of manufacturers who cover the period. I CBA with rivet counting though, so my Germans have some really odd stuff following them into battle...

And well, if you do go into 28mm, avoid the Warlord plastic vehicle kits if you can. Other company's resin have better detail for a similar price (Warlord's own resin tends to be a bit iffy on that front). If you have the opportunity buy the Rubicon kits every time. Most come with multiple options for the variant (i.e. stuff you usually have to buy in resin), particularly the newer stuff which they have planned (in the case of their Hetzers I was able to make two vehicles from one kit with the spares + plasticard...).

If you are used to 28 and enjoy that size I would suggest picking up a box of bolt action models. 30 bucks for a whole platoon is a great deal. Multi part, multi pose will be familiar to you coming from 40k.

Although I play Battlegroup over FOW I still enjoy battlefronts stuff in 15. It's a great scale to game ww2 in. You can play bolt action in 15 as well.

Short answer. Buy the starters for both. Play both of niether. Sell the other armies to make up the cost.


Then play Battlegroup.

Strombones, would you say 15mm or 28mm is more common for clubs? I'm alright with either, just figure invest into the more common one to have more chances to play. And yea, gaming clubs are fairly rare in my area it would seem, always figured a major military base would have more gamers.


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Also, I got to say, battleground looks great. I am really looking for historical accuracy with the ww2 stuff, I got 40k for the rediculous stuff.

Is the hobby chest still open in Jacksonville?I used to play 40k there when I was at Lejuene. Also a bit of flames of war of recall. I would pop in there and check it out. Bolt action wasn't around yet when I gamed there but I would be surprised if there weren't some people playing it.

Battlegroup really aims to reflect historical to&e of real life units which is why I like it. Of course that's never stopped me from using accurate lists in Bolt Action.

Yea hobby chest is still around. Mostly 40k and WHFB these days tho, I saw FoW played ONCE about 2 years ago. PLayed for 20min then one guy had to leave


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Yea hobby chest is still around. Mostly 40k and WHFB these days tho, I saw FoW played ONCE about 2 years ago. PLayed for 20min then one guy had to leave

Second on Battlegroup. Scaled for either 20mm or 15mm, and fairly quick play. Also intended for all sizes of battles, with Squad, Platoon, Company, and Battalion levels of play.

One thing that really differentiates Battlegroup from Flames of War for me: FoW allows you to put Rommel or Montgomery or Patton on the table; Battlegroup comes in with the notion that you are Rommel, Montgomery, or Patton. It's more a perception/perspective aspect, really. It's the difference between you taking the part of a remote political/military leader dictating what objectives are to be taken, or you being the general in the field determining how to take those objectives.

Battlegroup because it is ............... javascript:emoticon('');..... the best.

Sorry Strombones I couldn't go the distance on the original quote.

I find that both FoW and BA have range issues that really break immersion for me. BA moreso than FoW.

If I were doing it, I'd want to use FoW-scale minis and scenery under BA rules.

But really, I'm mostly playing Memoir '44.

Battlegroupies Unite!

Yeah BA works well in 15. Also look for local FB pages alwaysa good way to find players.

But above all else...buy ww2 stuff..paint it...have them fight appropriate enemies....take pictures...share with internet.

As others have mentioned, you need not buy into a game to use the models. PSC supports Battlegroup, but that doesn't mean you can't use the same models for FoW nor Bolt Action or any other ruleset really. One of the nicer thing about historicals is that a Sherman is a Sherman is a Sherman; you don't have to figure out a "counts as" to use them in another game like you do going from 40k to Infinity/Warmachine/Warpath. Therefore, collect the models you want first, then worry about the rules.

I personally prefer 15mm to 28mm/20mm for WW2 gaming. There's still enough detail on the infantry models to be interesting, and it's far easier to include the bigger vehicles and the like without breaking the bank/table space. In my case I also struggle painting faces so the vague details of 15mm really helps there; nobody expects painted eyes and fingernails at that scale unless you're playing Big P (and to be fair, I suspect he's not actually human but is instead a cleverly-disguised painting android </jealousy over his insane detail ability> ). If you're more focused on infantry combat, 15mm might not be the best scale ever because single-models can get a bit fiddly but it also makes for a near-travel size experience too. Plus terrain is generally cheaper if you don't like building it yourself as it's smaller. I've done a much better job building up a village than I have of any army...

I really need to get around to finishing my initial armies that I started nearly 2 years ago so I can set up a table and take pictures for Strombones. He's right on the priority here.

I concur that for WW2 gaming, 15mm is best mm. 28mm is gorgeous, of course, but it scales poorly.

Soo.... Now that we've all agreed he needs to be playing 1/100 "15mm" scale, buying PSC where he can, BF where it's not an option, the only open question is:

Which ruleset should he should be playing?

Nah.... 20mm.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Soo.... Now that we've all agreed he needs to be playing 1/100 "15mm" scale, buying PSC where he can, BF where it's not an option, the only open question is:

Which ruleset should he should be playing?

All of them!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Soo.... Now that we've all agreed he needs to be playing 1/100 "15mm" scale, buying PSC where he can, BF where it's not an option, the only open question is:

Which ruleset should he should be playing?

I enjoy Chain of Command.

Big P wrote:Nah.... 20mm.

Heresy, madness, blasphemy.


edit: fix quote derp

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Soo.... Now that we've all agreed he needs to be playing 1/100 "15mm" scale, buying PSC where he can, BF where it's not an option, the only open question is:

Don't forget Zvezda! Most of my North Africa German armor comes from them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Which ruleset should he should be playing?

As long as you account for scale, a WWII army is usable in any WWII game. Go for the game the 'local' group is playing.

Hey guys! So I took the plunge today, ordered a kit of 20mm Late War German Infantry from PSC (Got the box with about 50 men in it) Now I just have to wait for it. I started a group on FB for the eastern NC area for wargaming, so I am hoping for the networking abilities to be on point! Anywhos, when I get them painted up I will post pictures to share with internets.

PSC seems to have a great range of 20mm vice 15mm Though I will purchase some of each and see what I like, I prefer nicer detail models myself.

Zvesda looks great, I love the prices, gonna take this in steps though, I am not sure how I feel about the snap together models. But I will try it prior to passing judgement.

So close...

1/100 / 15mm is so you can play FoW, which is the most popular WW2 minis game.

20mm is an orphan scale.

Like I said, gonna buy some of both and see what I prefer

Orphan scale...? I wonder who buys all the kits then as PSC sell more 20mm kits than 15mm... I'm not sure your comment is exactly right old bean.... perhaps only for your personal gaming environment.

The beauty of 20mm & 1/72 kits is the thousands of kits available and the hundreds of resin and metal ones covering ever vehicle imaginable. Not too mention plastic and metal figures, painted tanks, and literally thousands of options.

However, I can only comment on what I know personally, I can't speak for the entire WWII gaming community. I also don't play FoW. I only know 20mm WWII gamers...

But after 35 years of using 20mm, it's still my favourite. It's always been the traditional size for WWII wargaming in the UK and now 20mm is still going strong and growing. It also looks the best to me...

Big P wrote:
Orphan scale...? I wonder who buys all the kits then as PSC sell more 20mm kits than 15mm... I'm not sure your comment is exactly right old bean.... perhaps only for your personal gaming environment.

I also don't play FoW. I only know 20mm WWII gamers...

But after 35 years of using 20mm, it's still my favourite. It's always been the traditional size for WWII wargaming in the UK and now 20mm is still going strong and growing.

I'm only into modern WW2 minis gaming via FoW. I wasn't aware that 20mm was the UK standard.

Is there a mass market 20mm WW2 game that people outside the UK would know of, comparable to 15mm FoW or 28mm BA?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Big P wrote:
Orphan scale...? I wonder who buys all the kits then as PSC sell more 20mm kits than 15mm... I'm not sure your comment is exactly right old bean.... perhaps only for your personal gaming environment.

I also don't play FoW. I only know 20mm WWII gamers...

But after 35 years of using 20mm, it's still my favourite. It's always been the traditional size for WWII wargaming in the UK and now 20mm is still going strong and growing.

I'm only into modern WW2 minis gaming via FoW. I wasn't aware that 20mm was the UK standard.

Is there a mass market 20mm WW2 game that people outside the UK would know of, comparable to 15mm FoW or 28mm BA?

If there is something I've learnt from reading threads on forums and listening to old people (that includes 20s, I'm 19 so I can say that) at clubs its that that isn't how historical gamers work.
They buy armies from lots and lots of different small manufacturers. Then they buy rulesets from lots and lots of different writers. Then they take what they like best. Then they spend a lot of time building a scenario thay want to game. They usually have a bunch half started too. Then at some point the game happens.

The Miniatures+Game approach isnt actuallt the norm in wargaming, it is the exception.

Yeah I didn't know of 20mm till I started looking up games on the internet. Of course this will sound silly to old school historical gamers as 1/72 has probably been around a lot longer than 28 and 15...or atleast consistently available. If I'm not mistaken, the battlefront guys popularized WW2 in 15?

Perhaps someone can speak to this better than me but I believe both Bolt Action and FOW got a good jump start from their staff being ex GW'ers, and sort of jumped into the FLGS scenes with 40k gamers.


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Also^^^

All three systems here are designed for pick up/generic scenarios that I usually find are the norm.

Modern WW2 minis gaming probably wouldn't exist if not for FoW. FoW kicked things off with a game engine that was radically, dramatically simpler and faster than anything that had come before. And the 1/100 scale stuff looked great. FoW brought in a lot of new blood what had already passed what the old fogies were doing.

Later, we got 28mm Bolt Action down the line, along with Wierd War 2 like DUST. And PSC to skim the cream with inexpensive plastic kits (because a 1/100 tank is a 1/100 tank!). It's a good time for WW2 minis gaming, that's for sure.

Perhaps in its current state though I feel you are going to have a hard time convincing guys who started wargaming WW2 20 years before Phil Yates left GW that they can thank him for its popularity.

But also yes I think you are correct and insightful to point out that FOW likely made what was once the domain of grognards accessible and appealing to new blood.


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Myself case in point who may have never entered hostoricals if flames of war had not been stocked next to the 40k.

Flames came out in 2002, a full 15 years ago! That's quite a long time by gaming standards.

My image of grognards is historical gaming going back 20 years prior to Flames initial release. That would be 35 years ago, starting in 1982. Old fogies, to be sure!