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Octovol wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?

The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.

I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.

An unenclosed compartment. Just like the battlewagon, sentinel, Basilisk, etc. I mean ruleswise we don't get anything out of it but with no firing steps or firing ports it was kind of expected that we couldn't shoot out. Remember GW REALLY values transport capacity on anything that gets it.

I do wish we'd at least had the option to forgo the sponson stubbers to just use the sides as a firing port. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad that we actively would rather shoot our infantry carried weapons out of the transport than some piddly heavy stubbers, although I guess in the lore it wouldn't be the case.

If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

Anyhow, on a less salty note, here is an iteration on my list. I am going to try to adapt the feedback I've gotten:

It tries to do a lot of things, including:
-Cut one Ballistarii to make room for the Assassin
-Two fatter units of Breachers
-Min unit of Destroyers to pair with Dakkabots
-Replaced the Cohort formation with Elimination Volley
-Make Manipulus the WL to get Monitor and deny Kingslayer
-Made second Battalion Graia for access to Abhor the Witch

Octovol wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?

The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.

Frankly, if you expected the repair ability to let you remove multiple tokens at once? That was silly of you to think so.

The reason I bring up the Emanatus Force Field is that we are seeing previews of unreleased stuff in these Datasheets. The Space Marine Eliminators(Vanguard's Sniper Unit) feature "Las-Fusils" that they do not currently have in the Shadowspear kits. Mechanicus was supposedly going to see a rereleased book, ala CSM, this year as well so I'm wondering if they're overhauling things.

I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.

The difference between them in 40k is the same thing from the Community preview--the only real difference in statlines is that the Disintegrator has +1T for being enclosed.
Your Onager also gets a 5+ save rather than a 6+ like the Dunerider/Disintegrator. in Apoc.

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol

Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.

Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.


Incidentally did anyone notice the sacristan shrine has no drawbacks in apoc? Not even the stupid 4+ roll our tech priests have to do to repair stuff, just pick a knight, repair, refuel or increase it’s movement. Done lol.

Octovol wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol

Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.

Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.

So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.

The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.

 Hulksmash wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol

Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.

Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.

So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.

The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.

Keep in mind several of the regulars here are playing at the most brutal ITC events you can go to. There are a ton of units/traits/weapons that are perfectly usable in a normal meta but really are pretty bad if you're going all out at a top tier event. Thats where a lot of these "it's trash" comments are coming from, because these folks don't exactly see this new unit wiping the floor with top tier Eldar, IG, Knights, etc. unless it's just stupidly cheap. That doesn't mean if you go to your FLGS and play a friendly or semi competitive game that they're going to suck, so much as you're just going to suffer if someone brings a curbstomp list to the table.

For the average Joe I think this will be a good unit as long as its not stupidly expensive, but I get some folks being leery of it for top tier play. The transport is getting more boring the more they reveal, unless there's some fancy trick they're not telling us. To be a top tier unit for tournament play it really needs to be more than a box to stick guys in (see the drill for a good example) I still see some utility to the tank, even if it's only because the stupid rule of 3 prevents me from running 5-6 Onagers to cover my AAA and AT needs. And that's ignoring the LOS ignoring mortar, that thing is pretty great and GW is going to have to really screw up the costs and rules to make that tank at least not somewhat useful for most Admech lists.

@mrmoustuffa

Oh I'm aware that's where it's coming from. But I play in those same events and with admech without knights. I'm looking at it from that perspective and I think people are freaking out about nothing. I know other top tier players are salivating over this thing.

As for the transport if I can get 2 for the price of 1 drill I'm good with that. Especially if they get canticles when that doesnt. But we'll have to wait and see. I just think pricing a tank that does all the things this does a130 or less wont happen and that's ok. Granted if it does holy hell will I enjoy the next 6 months

I've already got 3 on preorder

If the transport costs only 70-80, I will be salty because the thing is $1 per point.

Low points and strong stratagems are the only thing keeping AdMech in the meta right now. Our relics are trash. Our dogmas and WLTs are subpar. Non-squadronable 150 points is a bit much because it doesn't make efficient use of said stratagems.

That being said, the Mortar Tankette does fill a role that desperately needs filling.

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the transport costs only 70-80, I will be salty because the thing is $1 per point.

Low points and strong stratagems are the only thing keeping AdMech in the meta right now. Our relics are trash. Our dogmas and WLTs are subpar. Non-squadronable 150 points is a bit much because it doesn't make efficient use of said stratagems.

That being said, the Mortar Tankette does fill a role that desperately needs filling.

Meh, I remember when the rhino was a $1 per point. I don't love the price but Old Stuff isn't being bumped yearly anymore and this is the cost. Increase in new models.

I disagree that low points and strong strats are all that's keeping us in the meta. Our stuff, outside of rust stalkers and our electro priests and to a less extent destroyers, is priced well. The icarus onager is actually a little low. Those point costs are a bit high compared to some of the top tier lists but we get a lot more play out of our strats and canticles/forge worlds than most of them do since it affects everything in the book so that levels it out. Our relics actually to me feel better than everyone outside of GSC. The ryza gun, lucius redeploy, pseudogenerator, mask, and phosphoex are all items I like and have used to good effect. The WLT's are limited to 2 that I use regularly (CC one and bigger bubble) but that's most armies. We have 4 good to great dogmas in Mars, Stygies, Lucius, and Graia.

As for the tank at 150 I think it's pretty perfect. We don't know the cost yet but I'll be ok with it at that price. Happier if it's lower and depending on how much more than 150 will see how many get used. The only strat it doesn't get that robots get is the mortal strat but there are other units that can be used on. And not having strats never stopped me from using my icarus crawlers to good effect. I think people are just jumping the gun on this one in rating it so poorly or setting a point limit on it being good or bad. But I recognize it might not fit into certain styles of lists like yours that uses a lot of larger squads to take full advantage of strats.

I'd love to be wrong, but the new tanks looks bleh.

The Tank version, might be okish, nothing too amazing or to write home about.

The transport feels like straight trash to me though. Unless there are some killer things we've not seen all my hopes were built then smashed as we end up with an extra weak rhino with more guns but less toughness. At high price tag. I'm not going to get any until I see how they shake out but I may just get none to protest how weak sauce these rules feel.

I mean if they are going to money grab me at least give me something that feels like it could crush and not something that only feels ok in relation to faction pure builds.

At least the over expensive marine tank has a a best of both worlds weapon, where as we seem to get very modest new weapons. Things people won't go " Man, I wish I had that ! ".


Edit: I guess they spent all the effort on the very good, funny and witty ad for it we all saw. I mean, what are rules eh ?

Indirect fire is still a really, really, really big deal for anyone playing in ITC. There are just some boards and matchups where you feel a bit helpless because your infantry can't contest magic boxes. Well now you can just shoot them and soften them up before assaulting.

We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.

One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.

We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .

Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...

So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

Anyhow, on a less salty note, here is an iteration on my list. I am going to try to adapt the feedback I've gotten:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1339

HQ - 275
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Warlord, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr

Troop - 384
4x Kataphron Breacher - 4x Heavy Arc Rifle, 4x Arc Claw
4x Kataphron Breacher - 4x Heavy Arc Rifle, 4x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Destroyer - 3x Plasma Culverin, 3x Phosphor Blaster

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Fast Attack - 240
3x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 3x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Graia Battalion Detachment - 165

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 105
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408 (-1 CP)

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - 6x Taser Lance

Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-2 CP)

Total: 1997 points
10 CP

It tries to do a lot of things, including:
-Cut one Ballistarii to make room for the Assassin
-Two fatter units of Breachers
-Min unit of Destroyers to pair with Dakkabots
-Replaced the Cohort formation with Elimination Volley
-Make Manipulus the WL to get Monitor and deny Kingslayer
-Made second Battalion Graia for access to Abhor the Witch

Remove a Robot and a Dragoon ad 2 destroyers one balistarii or all destroyers so you benefit better from elimination + use the 5+ vigilus. Try grav !!!! Else you should be fine for pure ad mech

 Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote:
I played in a local RTT this weekend with ITC missions. I brought a lot of things I didn't have a lot of experience with (breachers, hoplites, TP Manipulus), and ended up going 0-3, though they were all decently close matches. I wanted to share my experiences, and ask a couple of questions of the fine folks here.
My list:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
Forge World: Stygies VIII
Servitor Maniple
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus: Master of Biosplicing
Tech-Priest Enginseer

+ Troops +
3x Kataphron Breachers
3x Kataphron Breachers
5x Kataphron Destroyers
5x Skitarii Rangers, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers, 2x Transuranic Arquebus

+ Elites +
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priests
10x Corpuscarii-Priests
4x Servitors
10x Secutarii Hoplites

+ Heavy Support +
3x Kastelan Robots
Onager Dunecrawler: Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler: Icarus Array

Battalion Detachment
Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]
Tech-Priest Manipulus Relic: Anzion's Pseudogenetor, Monitor Malevolus

+ Troops +
5x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Vanguards
5x Skitarii Vanguards

Match results

Spoiler:

Match 1: Tau. His list was Longstrike, several hammerheads, several skyrays, and some devil fish, and some infantry. Lost 17-32. Dawn of war deployment, and he castled everything up. Using Stygies, I infiltrated both units of electropriests, the TPM, and some breachers towards his wall of vehicles. He managed to seize on me, wiped the destroyers, a dunecrawler, the fulgurites, and most of the snipers. I made a major mistake by having my robots too far up, and a devilfish consolidated into them. On my turn I didn't have enough heavy firepower to cripple enough vehicles, and with his mobility and ability to ignore LoS with his missiles, he tabled me by turn four.

Match 2: Grey Knights. Voldus, Draigo, 10 Paladins, 3 ven dreads, 3 strike squads, and a few other characters. Search and Destroy deployment. I thought this match might be pretty easy, but the terrain ended up working against me. We used the big L-shaped LoS blocking pieces you see at NOVA, and between Gate of Infinity, Astral Aim, and his deepstriking, my snipers, destroyers, and robots never were able to get a volley off on anything that mattered, and they weren't mobile enough to get into LoS. He was able to plink off small squads to get kill more and I ended up getting very few secondaries due to cagey play on his part. Fulgurites did well, but 10 aren't enough to wipe 10 paladins in one go. I lost 14-21.

Match 3: Tyranids. Trygons, hive tyrants, exocrines, hive guard, venomthropes, and plenty of gribblies. Hammer and Anvil deployment. I also thought this match would go well for me. Due to the board set-up and objectives, he was able to hold the midfield objective and be totally out of LoS to me with his venomthropes and hive guard. I had no problem killing his big stuff, but he was able to hold more by keeping me boxed in, and do better on secondaries. Again, the dune crawlers and breachers didn’t have any good targets, and contributed minimally. Lost 17-27.

This was my first set of games in a while, and I made plenty of mistakes. Here are my reflections on how units performed.

The Good:
1. Both units of electropriests: they got kills, and soaked a lot of firepower, I wanted bigger units of both by the end.
2. Tech priest manipulus: I loved the flexibility he brought, and the +1 to charge and +6” both came in handy throughout the matches. He was decently durable, only dying to dedicated power - railguns/draigo/trygons
The Bad:
1. Breachers: I took breachers on the advice of many in this tread. While they were moderately durable, they contributed virtually nothing. Hitting on 4+ a and wounding most vehicles on 5+ just doesn’t cut it. They also gave up easy Gangbusters points in every match. I would have preferred 20 more vanguard instead.
2. Servitor Maniple: Plasma hitting on 2+ is amazing when it works, but it is very transparent, and vulnerable to counter play (they really only worked in 1/3 matches). They also drain a lot of CPs.
The Ugly:
1. Hoplites: I didn’t have high expectations, but in every game they died before they could charge anything. Not having Dogmas hurts them a lot.

Questions for folks:
1. What am I missing about Breachers? I felt like I needed more specialist tools, not generalist units.
2. Given my experience with cover and LoS, Secutarii Peltasts are intriguing. Anyone have experience with them? I have high hopes for the Skorpius variants.
Thanks!

As with most lists ad mech our units work better when they are part of a plan . As you said take 20 more vanguard since your list is spamming cheap troops . If you read here about beachers then you would also read build around them. If you invest a list with 20+ priests then you need to take proper tools for them a) hq to buff them maybe some lucius buffer transport drills to max their performance etc. You can't build 4 plans in one list.

Breachers are a good tough screen that Cawl gives rerolls hits that you spamming 30+ arc shots vs vehicles so you got like 15 of them + you got prime hermeticon warlord trait so they reroo miss in melee then send some cp for aquititin atalcost and get 20 rr melee str 6-14 str hits but most likely 5 models T5 3W 1+ save that will not die while you protect your gun line . After all it's a screen . Their mass samm shots mele toughness makes them better than most units .

Spending points all over units ith no plan has low results . As for suggestions

Decide what you wanna play and e can help .
A) priest spamming
B) skktsrii spamming
C) breachers ???

All in one is makes it average . At least in your format.

 Hulksmash wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol

Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.

Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.

So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.

The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.

Its ok if you are looking at this thing in a vacuum, from first glances its not a bad little tank. But when you look past it to the other units that already compete in its role it is quite outclassed. 2 twin lascannon Balistarii, 3 Plasma Destroyers, an Onager with a Neutron Laser (assuming its even in the same pts bracket as the above units)... these are all tried and tested AT options that shine and do their jobs extremely well. So the Ferrumite Cannon will most likely be ditched in favour of the Belleros, its very much like a Predator Destructor. That autocannon is sweet and the heavy bolters provide some cheap chaff clearance... buuuuuuttttttt there is the Predator Annihilator which destroys the same targets the autocannon would normally target for 4 lascannons.... yeah its a more expensive option but it doesnt mess around. And even looking past that to other AT units in the marine book, you dont tend to gravitate towards to Jack of all Trades tank, you specialize each element to do a specific role and it always brings me back to a very good quote from Lion El'Jonson in the 5th ed rule book that is about pushing a certain element to the max so that your opponent cant defend against it.

So now that brings us to the Belleros, and like everyone else, I am preferring this option over the other. It gives us something we lack (if we dont take Guard units). However I still wouldnt call the Tank insane. Ill have everyone know I dont play ITC or ETC, just good old tournaments. But these events still have LOS blocking terrain (quite a lot tbh), so it fills that niche role, but im not looking at the tank and going yeeeeea boiiii with the 3 Heavy Stubbers and the Disruptor Missiles, I could do without them for the role its intended to do. You dont pay for HWT Mortars and go hell yeah with those lasguns, or the same with Wyverns and Basilisks with the Heavy Bolter..... they are secondary weapons used for point defense. If you had the option I bet no one would take them, the same could be said with the Skorpius' secondary weapon systems. I dont know about everyone else but im not really lacking in the anti infantry department! This tank doesnt have the profile to be a main battle tank, if its cruising up its exposing itself to charges, counter fire, smite spam, a cheeky krak grenade up the exhaust pipe.... So that 12" move shouldnt be used to go up the board as it cant take the punches. And once again it will divide itself from the rest of the force and get out of repair range (unless your Enginseers and Dominus are track stars with their nikes on!), So that multipurpose tank that is "insane" will cost for it in pts and on the table top by drawing more attention as it tries to do a bit of everything.

Slap off the hull missiles and I would be whistling a different tune. Get rid of the stubbers and i probably wouldnt miss them all that much. I was expecting more from the tank but its just 4" faster Onager that will most likely cost more and be less impactful. Now I could all be wrong when we see the rules and points and I will point up my hands and take back what ive said when that happens, but from what we know now, I could pretend it didnt even exist haha! The vehicle doesnt affect me much and if I needed it for the Belleros, id probably get HWT Mortars, a Wyvern or a Basilisk sadly, yeah it ruins the whole pure admech thing ive got going on, but we as a codex arent doing great. We are only doing well as they lowered our pts so much (youd never see Kataphrons at all before) and our Skitarii stratagems are pretty dang good, but we still have 1st gen Dogmas (look at Dark Eldar, GSC, Guard) that are very two dimensional, bad Warlord Traits (ever codex has them but ours are like phewww what is going on here!?) and most of our Relics are melee focused! I can count the number of times on my hand how much my Dominus has fought in combat and i can tell you the Red Axe / Adamantium Arm / Etc would of not saved him hahaha! Ive only every used the Pimp Cane as it enhances what a Dominus already does....

All in all, these Tank are meh, could of been better if im honest. Its not something im jumping at the gun to get

BTW im not taking about the Dunerider at all. So far its alright for what it does but we need to know its pts. It needs to be cheaper than a Raider for me to even use it, if its more expensive than a Raider then I have no idea what they were thinking

could HAVE, could of doesnt even make sense..

Im also not really happy with the transport, I like the disintegrators look but it costs a lot and doesnt have anything with high impact or funky cool weird rules.

Some good points there, and yes the LoS ignoring energy mortar is about the best part of all this information. The rest feels like it may be so bad I'd be hard pressed to buy it and support an awful unit design. They really should know better how to make a good unit by this time. When I'm still looking with envy at a marine rhino, we got a problem here.

With what we know/expect, the transport looks like a trampoline for a cheeky Stygies Infiltration first turn Fulgurite charge, and not much else. If it truly doesn't have open-top, neither Fly, it has close to no value in pushing for objective with the Obsec (as 12" is not enough when circumnavigating the terrain), nor riding Plasmas/Corpuscarii around for the mobile firebase (as T6 will not hold long enough, especially with the low range of the Infantry, juxtaposed with 12" requirement for Stygies -hit). 70 pts, that's the top I'm willing to pay for the transport, any point above and the kit in this state is a pass for me. I can deload all of the stubbers if that's an option, I couldnt care less for a single dead Marine or 2-3 dead Boyz, if it is a "disembark and forget" type of unit...

I’m going on record to say I’m not buying it in its current iteration

I will stick with Wyverns and Mortars for non LOS shooting and if I want my disco priests in a game i’ll bung them in a drill

It’s cool it was made and yay for gw supporting the range but without fly it’s a big no from me.

Hopefully codex 2.0 is around the corner and it’s being written by someone who didn’t just CNTRL C, CNTRL V the index details

ITs stupid with no fly

better of with guard batt once more. ITs insane if its not cheap or it can flky or something fnp maybe i dont know.

I'll be here to say told you so like I did with breachers....

I'll bow out now and wait for the release.

It’s a shame, I love my Admech but I’m having so much more fun playing with the guard elements I’ve introduced. I held off from soup for so long and now I’m struggling to get the enthusiasm for mono Admech

I probably need to try a different forgeworld like agripinaa mix up my playstyle a bit

I think an Admech flyer and reworked canticles/ruststalkers would be exactly what we need to be exciting. That’s my wish list

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll be here to say told you so like I did with breachers....

I'll bow out now and wait for the release.

Oh i still think Breachers are trash until arc weapons get their old glorious profile back they will sit nicely in my display cabinet next to my 15 Ruststalkers and 20 Electropriests! If they work for you thats great but Breachers are not my thing this edition.

@hulksmash

lol there is always one

 0XFallen wrote:

Spoiler:

 deffrekka wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.

All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol

Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.

Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.

So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.

The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.

Its ok if you are looking at this thing in a vacuum, from first glances its not a bad little tank. But when you look past it to the other units that already compete in its role it is quite outclassed. 2 twin lascannon Balistarii, 3 Plasma Destroyers, an Onager with a Neutron Laser (assuming its even in the same pts bracket as the above units)... these are all tried and tested AT options that shine and do their jobs extremely well. So the Ferrumite Cannon will most likely be ditched in favour of the Belleros, its very much like a Predator Destructor. That autocannon is sweet and the heavy bolters provide some cheap chaff clearance... buuuuuuttttttt there is the Predator Annihilator which destroys the same targets the autocannon would normally target for 4 lascannons.... yeah its a more expensive option but it doesnt mess around. And even looking past that to other AT units in the marine book, you dont tend to gravitate towards to Jack of all Trades tank, you specialize each element to do a specific role and it always brings me back to a very good quote from Lion El'Jonson in the 5th ed rule book that is about pushing a certain element to the max so that your opponent cant defend against it.

So now that brings us to the Belleros, and like everyone else, I am preferring this option over the other. It gives us something we lack (if we dont take Guard units). However I still wouldnt call the Tank insane. Ill have everyone know I dont play ITC or ETC, just good old tournaments. But these events still have LOS blocking terrain (quite a lot tbh), so it fills that niche role, but im not looking at the tank and going yeeeeea boiiii with the 3 Heavy Stubbers and the Disruptor Missiles, I could do without them for the role its intended to do. You dont pay for HWT Mortars and go hell yeah with those lasguns, or the same with Wyverns and Basilisks with the Heavy Bolter..... they are secondary weapons used for point defense. If you had the option I bet no one would take them, the same could be said with the Skorpius' secondary weapon systems. I dont know about everyone else but im not really lacking in the anti infantry department! This tank doesnt have the profile to be a main battle tank, if its cruising up its exposing itself to charges, counter fire, smite spam, a cheeky krak grenade up the exhaust pipe.... So that 12" move shouldnt be used to go up the board as it cant take the punches. And once again it will divide itself from the rest of the force and get out of repair range (unless your Enginseers and Dominus are track stars with their nikes on!), So that multipurpose tank that is "insane" will cost for it in pts and on the table top by drawing more attention as it tries to do a bit of everything.

Slap off the hull missiles and I would be whistling a different tune. Get rid of the stubbers and i probably wouldnt miss them all that much. I was expecting more from the tank but its just 4" faster Onager that will most likely cost more and be less impactful. Now I could all be wrong when we see the rules and points and I will point up my hands and take back what ive said when that happens, but from what we know now, I could pretend it didnt even exist haha! The vehicle doesnt affect me much and if I needed it for the Belleros, id probably get HWT Mortars, a Wyvern or a Basilisk sadly, yeah it ruins the whole pure admech thing ive got going on, but we as a codex arent doing great. We are only doing well as they lowered our pts so much (youd never see Kataphrons at all before) and our Skitarii stratagems are pretty dang good, but we still have 1st gen Dogmas (look at Dark Eldar, GSC, Guard) that are very two dimensional, bad Warlord Traits (ever codex has them but ours are like phewww what is going on here!?) and most of our Relics are melee focused! I can count the number of times on my hand how much my Dominus has fought in combat and i can tell you the Red Axe / Adamantium Arm / Etc would of not saved him hahaha! Ive only every used the Pimp Cane as it enhances what a Dominus already does....

All in all, these Tank are meh, could of been better if im honest. Its not something im jumping at the gun to get

BTW im not taking about the Dunerider at all. So far its alright for what it does but we need to know its pts. It needs to be cheaper than a Raider for me to even use it, if its more expensive than a Raider then I have no idea what they were thinking

could HAVE, could of doesnt even make sense..

Im also not really happy with the transport, I like the disintegrators look but it costs a lot and doesnt have anything with high impact or funky cool weird rules.

It depends where about's you are from, around where I am from and towns like Stoke and Alsager people say "Could of". Its dialect, it changes wildly from region to region just like with Geordies, they pretty much speak in the 3rd person.

It’s not really dialect (it’s not specific to any dialectal region, it appears everywhere) so much as it is a very common mistake. However, language very frequently evolves by mistakes becoming so common that they become accepted and eventually the more common (and so correct) usage, so... meh. “Could of” is a very likely candidate for eventually replacing “could’ve” (which is where the mistake originates, rather than “could have”).

Anyway. If that transport is around 100 or less I’m happy. I’ve been wanting more mechanised admech (go figure) without spamming a ton of the same two or three datasheets, so this is grand.

We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.

One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.

We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .

Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...

So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.

You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.

All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.

I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.

That's kind of where I am on the transport version. I will probably buy one to run as a mortar tank; but I already have one drill, and unless something as yet to be released blows me away, I'd rather buy a second drill over two Higgins boats.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.

One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.

We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .

Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...

So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.

You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.

All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.

I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.

Agree.

Besides all rules etc the fact that it costs 75 is extremely bad. And i see lot of people already taking it ??? bad rules bad price and still i dont get it you dont want the best for you you settle with average and overscost price?

 Yoda79 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.

One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.

We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .

Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...

So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.

You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.

All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.

I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.

Agree.

Besides all rules etc the fact that it costs 75 is extremely bad. And i see lot of people already taking it ??? bad rules bad price and still i dont get it you dont want the best for you you settle with average and overscost price?

Hey Yoda, I would appreciate a reduction in the hyperbole in regards to the rules on the vehicle or admech in general. Believe it or not yours and your group think aren't the only people taking lists to an extreme. Difference is some of us dont rely on pure numbers. We build lists to function within themselves and a framework where pure numbers dont live. If everything I use was as bad as you claimed I'd have to be a genius to do as well ad I do. And I'm no genius

At $75 on the price I agree if you're buying as a transport. I'm ok with it as a tank price. It's just a pity it affected the cost for transports which are normally in the 40-50 range.

Main reasoning I can see would be

1. You like the look of it. I do, at least at first glance, like the look of both variants and if nothing else do want one to paint. With a 20% discount from somewhere I can stomach the price for a painting project. That is a main part of this hobby after all, running what looks cool and what you like to paint, tactics be damned

2. You play pure admech, for whatever reason (fluff, ITC, really hate every other army, whatever) and so it doesn't matter how much it may suck, this is the hand you've been dealt and by the Omnissiah you're going to make the best of it. Which I get because I play Metalica, you don't play that trait if you have any sanity and want to win. So while I have like 10k points of guard, with Manticores, Basilisks, and Mortars coming out of my ears, I'd still rather run a couple of these things for indirect because they're Admech and I feel like less of a jerk running them in my casual meta. Others like Sutzeo make a valid point in that with ITC it's really his only option for indirect fire. So whether its the best in the game is irrelevant to him, that's the indirect he has access to and it's better than not having it at all.

Until we see the full profile there's not a whole lot else we can discuss as far as I can tell. A mere 30-40pts could take this thing anywhere from a must take to almost useless. With the hints we have from Apocalypse datasheet, its looking like it'll need to be pretty cheap to justify it's stats, but we already know certain things aren't stated. For example, the move and shoot without penalty rule isn't on the Apoc datasheet, so perhaps some other ability is hiding in the main datasheet we're not aware of. All I can really tell is its almost certainly under 150pts. Every single unit I can think of in the 150 range costs around 10PL, and this thing costs 8. That puts it in Basilisk, Onager, Manticore, or Valkyrie (all units that cost 7-8 PL in apoc) and all of these units hover in the 110-130pts bracket. Until we know what else it does, there's no telling if that's a steal or too high.