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So it's always bothered me since 3rd edition how weak and pitiful the iconic Chainsword became, effectively being no different to a guardsman's combat knife, which is silly when the fluff has them grinding through armour and just generally tearing things to pieces. Now, I've been playing a bunch of Necromunda and one thing I like about it is that the Chainsword grants Strength 4, which distinguishes it from other weapons, along with the save modifier.

What I'd like to propose is that Chainswords become S4 AP5. This isn't super-powerful, and for marines represents only a minor AP bonus, but for S3 models it makes it a much more interesting weapon.

Problem is of course that lists don't reflect any difference between Chainswords and standard close combat weapons, even though some units are very pointedly described as having Chainswords. While proper updates would be the best way to introduce this, I'd propose the following quick and dirty bolt-on changes:

• Strength 3: Models with a Strength of 3 that have, or can take, Chainswords instead have, or can take, Close Combat Weapons at the current cost. In addition, these same models may now swap said Close Combat Weapon for a Chainsword at a cost of 3 points for regular models, or 5 points for characters (when only the character has access to a Chainsword).
  
• Strength 4: Models with a Strength 4 that have Chainswords as standard receive the upgraded version free of charge.

Like I say, this is quick and dirty and there are probably loads of edge cases where you may wish to make exceptions, but I think in general this should cover most cases reasonably well. Marines with Chainswords as standard are fairly underwhelming these days so gaining AP5 shouldn't make them overpowered, even marine characters with Chainswords aren't that dangerous, meanwhile Strength 3 models should benefit considerably from the ability to gain Strength 4.

Anyone have any thoughts? Any units that should/should not have this as standard?

I thought the shred rule would apply to these weapons when I first looked at 7th edition if I'm perfectly honest, on the same account that these things are handheld chainsaws that don't even rely on pure impact to cause damage, just for the teeth to catch and tear the unfortunate into bloody chunks. the lack of an AP value does really sting as well as a chain axe is pretty much the same in design yet has an AP value.

True, Shred does seem like it would be an appropriate rule for them, but then Heavy Chainswords and Eviscerators don't have it either, so that would be more of a full redesign for all of them.

+1 applies before x2 or set value so now BA can't use Furious charge with chainswords

 Haravikk wrote:
True, Shred does seem like it would be an appropriate rule for them, but then Heavy Chainswords and Eviscerators don't have it either, so that would be more of a full redesign for all of them.

In my eyes, these would either have an increased strength profile to account for the additional weight on the swing or a slightly higher AP value than a chain sword.

I say a simple rerolling of 1's to wound. Gives certain marines more bite, isn't terribly powerful like Shred but still noticeable without needing to increase price on anything.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
+1 applies before x2 or set value so now BA can't use Furious charge with chainswords

Hmm true, perhaps consider it a minimum Strength in such cases?

With the changes said to be coming about in 8th edition, I would imagine if save modifiers become a thing chainswords becoming -1 save modifier a reasonable and probable perk. While powerswords are -2/-3, power axe are -3/-4, etc...... Along those lines. If GW goes by Necromunda rules you could just look those up as possible guidelines for how they would change.

The last thing the game needs is more re-rolls, or more special rules. Go back to giving a chainsword a fixed strength and save modifier. They were never "amazing" but back in 2nd ed. etc. you had fixed values, so an Imperial Guard sergeant with a Chainsword likewise had Strength 4, etc.

Once again I'd argue that the problem is nothing to do with the chainsword...but the continued ridiculous increase in toughness, wounds, armour, armour re-rolls...cover...cover re-rolls...rolling actually friggin' dying etc. You completely neuter weapons and units when everything becomes stupidly tough to kill (because...power creep?). They need to gak can the feel-no-pain, eternal crybaby, re-roll garbage.

Or we could give the Chainsword a minor buff instead of going through every codex and nerfing things that probably don't need to be nerfed.

 Elbows wrote:
The last thing the game needs is more re-rolls, or more special rules. Go back to giving a chainsword a fixed strength and save modifier. They were never "amazing" but back in 2nd ed. etc. you had fixed values, so an Imperial Guard sergeant with a Chainsword likewise had Strength 4, etc.

Once again I'd argue that the problem is nothing to do with the chainsword...but the continued ridiculous increase in toughness, wounds, armour, armour re-rolls...cover...cover re-rolls...rolling actually friggin' dying etc. You completely neuter weapons and units when everything becomes stupidly tough to kill (because...power creep?). They need to gak can the feel-no-pain, eternal crybaby, re-roll garbage.

So you suggest nerfing Blood Angels (who would lose their Furious Charge if they have a Chainsword), leaving all the S4 Chainsword wielders unaffected, and giving only a minor buff to the S3 Chainsword wielders?

Yeah, think about who ACTUALLY USES Chainswords. Assault Marines... Some Guardsmen... Sergeants, occassionally? They could use a buff.

Rerolling 1s I think would be the best solution.
S: User AP: - Reroll 1s to wound.
A minor AP buff would be largely useless I feel, none of the current meta has any saves worse than 3+

Gaunts have a worse then 3+ save.

Why make it complicated? Why not simply give all chain weapons a similar feel? Off the top of my head:

Chain Sword - +1 S, AP 5
Cain Axe - +2, AP 5, Entropic Strike
Eviscrator - +3 S, AP4, Unwieldy
Chain Fist - x2 S, AP2, Unwieldy, Armourbane

Obviously points would be adjusted, options for units etc.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Why make it complicated? Why not simply give all chain weapons a similar feel? Off the top of my head:

Chain Sword - +1 S, AP 5
Cain Axe - +2, AP 5, Entropic Strike
Eviscrator - +3 S, AP4, Unwieldy
Chain Fist - x2 S, AP2, Unwieldy, Armourbane

Obviously points would be adjusted, options for units etc.

Funny. I don't remember Ciaphas wielding an axe. ;D

From an 8th edition mindset, my guess is that chainswords just become a a basic melee weapon with Rending -1 or something. So they're better at chewing through armor than most things, but not game-shakingly good. Feels about right for them.

From a 7th edition perspective, rerolling 1s to wound seems like a nice, minor buff, but it also seems like it would sort of screw over marines with preferred enemy, assault doctrines, or some other way of rerolling 1s to wound in the assault phase. Would it be crazy to have chainswords grant +1 strength and maybe AP5? As pointed out above, this would...

*Make some guardsmen strength 4.
*Make some marine sergeants punch slightly harder.
*Make assault punch somewhat significantly harder.

That last point is probably the main concern, but assault marines could kind of stand to get a buff. Strength 5 assault marines would actually win melee in a timely fashion against a variety of targets, do enough damage against dedicated melee enemies to feel like they made the enemy earn their win, and allow them jump around punching vehicles to death in a post-grenade-FAQ world. I think I'd be fine with all of that, and there's precedent for chainswords granting extra strength in the form of the striking scorpion chainsword.

Special Rule Well tuned:
Suggestion #1 Roll 2 d6.
1-5 nothing.
6-22 all models in unit attacking with Chainswords get ap5 until the end of phase.
23-24 all models in unit attacking with Chainswords get ap3 until the end of phase.

Suggestion #2 during roll to wound for each model.

1-2 nothing
3-4 ap5
5-6 ap3

Chainswords should NOT be getting AP3. At least, not without a big price bump on those who have them.

A chainaxe is 8 points and grants AP 4.

Chainsword for 5 points that grants AP 5 seems reasonable to me.

Why? Space Marines kill each other with them whenever they aren't blocked - they cut through Power Armour like it's tinfoil, fluff wise chainswords are high ap weapons.
Fluff aside.

Most Chainswords could be ap2 with double strength boosts and it wouldn't make an impact on their value, their wielders simply don't see melee often enough to matter, TWC usually give up their Chainswords first to get armed with Storm Shields, they also have natural Rending and are usually trying not to kill low priced units like troops on the charge so random ap4 or ap3 would actually be a hinderance to them. Most Space Marines don't even have access to chainswords, Scouts trade their Bolters for them.

IG characters getting assaulted, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines and lucky Assault Marines would probably be the only ones to see a benefit. I seem to recall all those units being terrible...

From a fluff perspective chainswords can cut through power armour, but they struggle, they don't glide through.
7th does not allow that, as if it's AP3 you glide straight through, if it isn't you might as well punch them.
Rend values would help as there would be a middle ground.
As for 7th, we'd have to settle for to-wound modifiers.

What's the difference between a chainsword and a combat knife in SWA?