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I am looking for advice for a friend who plays CSM. I play Space wolves and we really only play each other these days. He is new with this army and fairly new to 40k. I haven't lost to him yet but have had some close games. I want to help him out on how he should write his lists but I'm not familiar with CSM myself. I'm just wondering if there is any units that he should really be considering taking to go against my space wolves. I myself try not to use too much cheese(I tried wulfen with TH/SS and they were fun but OP against him).

I usually run;

multiple 5 man GH squads with a plasma gun and a WG w/combi-plas

1, 5 man GH squad with a melta and a WG w/combi-melta

Rune priest with a combi-plas, ruinic or Termie armour(depending if I am using Drop Pods or rhinos), and sometimes making him mastery lvl 2

3 TWC w/SS and one with a wolf claw

and either a plain dreadnought or a venerable with axe and shield if the points allow it.

I switch in between being a drop pod assault based army and a all out rhino(I'd try a razorback army but I think that would be too mean) based army to mix things up so it doesn't become too stale, but usually have the melta squad in a DP either way. I have tried a wolf lord but he never got to see combat because my friend gave me the match because I had too many VP's for him to make a comeback(or at least he thought so but you never know).

So any advice I could give him to give a better chance would be appreciated, I'm starting to feel bad having my Space Wolves mop the floor with his CSM. Or maybe I should try dialing it back on my end.

And don't mention heldrakes because he doesn't have one and if he did I would just have to counter with a flier of my own I suppose, Besides we usually stay under a thousand points.

Traitor Legions book will help with free VOTLW and attatched bonuses. Have him pick his favorite legion. I play Death Guard, but they need to be played above 1000 pts to be effective.

If hes going markless, I would reccomended Iron Warriors for 6+fnp and tank hunters, or Alpha Legion for infiltrating Marines, cultists, and chosen, or Black Legion for a best of codex mix.

Second Traitor Legions. CSM was a mediocre Codex when it came out, especially if Heldrakes aren't an option, and it's fallen behind. The tactica for each Legion are pretty distinct, so if he picks one that he likes (or has already done so) that'd be a good starting point.

I suspect he'd benefit from a squad of Autocannon Havocs (easily kitbashed from the abundant HH plastic Heavy Bolters), they'd take out a Rhino every turn, or make the TWC take a lot of saves, or put a dent in a dread. With a Blizzard Shield around they're going to want to crossfire with something, though - perhaps Obliterators? (Iron Warriors get them for Troops, also anyone can pay a Warpsmith tax to take a Formation with three units that get extra shots)

Five man squads are pretty good prey for summoned Flesh Hounds or Seekers in my experience. Horrors, too, if you can keep them away from things like TWC. A WB Sorcerer with Familiar and Scripts of Erebus costs 90pts and can pretty much guarantee two units worth 150-250 pts. Make him Lv 3 and give him a Palanquin and he'll summon pretty much all game, maybe hulk out into a GD.

Are you usually playing for objectives or kill points or what?

I had a look at the traitor legions codex and there is definitely some interesting options for him. The WB sorc with palanquin and everything else you mention comes out to almost 200pts but would be a summoning beast even with suffering perils on any doubles. Summoning all game long is a little cheesy but I am up for a challenge and if it seems too op I can just use my wulfen against him to balance it out a bit I suppose(although they would still probably be OP but would make for an interesting game). Iron warriors with FNP 6+ and VOTLW for free would definitely be a good option.

At this point there is a lot of proxies on the field on his side of the board as he doesn't have much money and still isn't sure on how to build his army. I'm not completely innocent on that part either but for the most part it is what you see is what you get.

We switch in between objectives and kill points but lately have been playing more with objectives. Had a game last night where he was winning 5-1 at the end of his turn on turn 4, but by the end of my turn on turn five i was up by 2 points and ended up winning.

Thanks for the tips, I'm sure this will help him out. Any more tips would still be appreciated if anybody has more.

Yeah, WB Daemonologists casting on a 3+ does little for their POTW safety, IME they sometimes burn out slightly faster as they get greedy and cast more often. It's the Scripts of Erebus that really helps them - it's a terrific safety net.

With regard to the other WB uniques, I've found that ObSec Possessed jumping out of a Land Raider are expensive but hard hitting (they can re-roll both or either charge dice, and a Juggerlord can run over from another unit to join them as they disembark; this can really extend his threat radius if they conga line). I'm going to try out large CSM units benefitting from the DA Zealot bubble - two blob squads, one with Baleful Icon DA, one with Blight Grenades Palansummoner, effectively constitute 42 Marines with Fearless, Hatred, and Defensive Grenades. Crusader, too, if it's a 1.5K+ game affording a Warband.

With regard to building a Summoning sideboard, a plastic box of Sigmar chaos Hounds and Start Collecting Tzeentch gives four of the most useful Summoning units, a decent Incursion unit, and an ok Sacrifice unit. And the Tzeentch psykers might be able to summon the Burning Chariot as well - so everything is useable without spending points on Allies

It's a crappy March up - Space wolves are the army that vanilla CSM wants to be!
It's really sad.

Id recommend that he invest in a daemon prince or two.
They are a great unit and should be able to hold their own against the nasty wolf units and absolutely destroy the lesser units.

Also cultists cultists cultists. Best unit in Codex CSM.

PS.
I'd love to recommend some Maulerfiends -bur I kinda think against wolves that they'd need to be used with some serious skill to be effective

Oh, Cultists are very tasty - I came up against a Death Guard Lost And The Damned with the DA carrying a Poxwalker Hive. Incredible staying power.

I'd be reluctant to recommend the Maulerfiend family, given the games you e described. Maulers are for smashing heavy armour, and they're overkill in a small game with no LR or Fortification to bench. Plasmafiends are for destroying medium-large units of medium-heavy infantry, again overkill against a MSU army and your T5 3++ TWC will take it in their stride (good chance to take no damage at all!). Hadesfiends win a firefight with a Dreadnought, but again it's a bit overkill and a big target, I'd sooner take a bunch of Oblits and crossfire with the Havocs.

I've heard of spamming cultist because they are so cheap pts wise. So whats the best way of to run them in terms of number of them per squad, weapons, and marks(if any)?

I really should be making the lazy bastard do his own research, lol but it also helps me out by learning what I can expect. I've already relayed all this advice to him so our next match could be interesting if he does it right.

Thanks again for the advice guys, keep it coming!


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Is a daemon prince worth it in games 1000 pts and under?

What units does he have? Yea, vannila CSM is just so weak.

 killerpenguin wrote:
What units does he have? Yea, vannila CSM is just so weak.

As far as actual models not much at all but since it is between just us I really don't care if his army is proxied, plus this way he can figure out exactly what models he wants to buy. We don't have anything to proxy for maulerfiends and stuff like that though.

I can't second the cultists, Space Wolves will eat them in one round and they'll never kill anything. Cultists are cheap objective holders, nothing more, nothing less.
Plague marines will deny the Wolves most of their assault boni due to defensive grenades. They also have two special weapons each and SM don't like Plasma in the face at all.
A warband will also win maelstrom games because all the units get obsec, so he just has to survive against the Space wolves and concentrate on objectives.

CSM basically have nothing against Thunderwolves and Wulfen really, but as you are open to toning down your list he should be okay. Havocs with autocannons will force some saves and are very cheap, but they aren't a reliable answer to thunderwolves.

TWC and Wulfen will eat anything in one round. So the idea is that you only loose 50 pts and not 500.

Sure, but the problem is Cultists are eaten by anything in one round, whereas CSM are able to hold themselves a bit(when Death Guard at least) or at least throw out a plasma shot instead of doing nothing. Taking TWC or Wulfen in close combat is of course never a good idea, you can't even tarpit them.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Sure, but the problem is Cultists are eaten by anything in one round, whereas CSM are able to hold themselves a bit(when Death Guard at least) or at least throw out a plasma shot instead of doing nothing. Taking TWC or Wulfen in close combat is of course never a good idea, you can't even tarpit them.

But space wuffs don't have anything other than wuffen and thunderwuffs.

How do you feel about skirmish sized games? Until he gets his collection to a good level you could always play the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team game. It is pretty well balanced between the factions (each has their own HoR Kill Team pdf.) and a pretty good game in its own right.

As a fairly new player myself that has to run just about every model I have with a bunch of count as stuff just to hit 1850, I really like that option instead. In fact, I personally like HoR Kill Team more than regular 40K, though; I don't know it that is more a function of poor army collection at the moment.

Barring that, since you have both played each other a few times, maybe you can create a challenging custom scenario for your Space Wolves and his CSM. At this point, you should have a pretty good idea what missions are easy/hard for both lists. A game where the scenario favors the CSM player but far from an automatic win for them. You get a challenging game. Your friend feels like they won or loss on their own merits not because they have a challenging army list at the moment.

In other miniatures games, I did this all the time as I enjoy the challenge of creating custom game scenarios based off each player's list to see how close of a game I could create. I got pretty good which several systems and players I knew their army and play style pretty well. I didn't always design a nail biter (sometimes the dice skew more than you think or you missed something), but man, when you create a game that comes down to the last 3 dice rolls...nothing better.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
How do you feel about skirmish sized games? Until he gets his collection to a good level you could always play the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team game. It is pretty well balanced between the factions (each has their own HoR Kill Team pdf.) and a pretty good game in its own right.

As a fairly new player myself that has to run just about every model I have with a bunch of count as stuff just to hit 1850, I really like that option instead. In fact, I personally like HoR Kill Team more than regular 40K, though; I don't know it that is more a function of poor army collection at the moment.

Barring that, since you have both played each other a few times, maybe you can create a challenging custom scenario for your Space Wolves and his CSM. At this point, you should have a pretty good idea what missions are easy/hard for both lists. A game where the scenario favors the CSM player but far from an automatic win for them. You get a challenging game. Your friend feels like they won or loss on their own merits not because they have a challenging army list at the moment.

In other miniatures games, I did this all the time as I enjoy the challenge of creating custom game scenarios based off each player's list to see how close of a game I could create. I got pretty good which several systems and players I knew their army and play style pretty well. I didn't always design a nail biter (sometimes the dice skew more than you think or you missed something), but man, when you create a game that comes down to the last 3 dice rolls...nothing better.

I personally really like small games, for whatever reason I seem to be better at them, or at least it was that way when I was always playing against Imp Guard. We played the regular 40k kill team and I really liked it, not sure how he feels about trying something like that. I may have to look at herald of ruins and try it out.

I think both of us lack the creativity to create a balanced scenario, or even one with a slight advantage to one side. We did have a couple games with 2 squads of fire warriors randomly moving on the board and if they got within 6" of a unit the controlling player rolled on a chart to see what happened. 1-2 they shot at you, 3-4 nothing, 5 they ran d6 away, 6 you got to take control of their shooting for a phase. If they managed to get within 3 inches they would try and assault(not very scary coming from tau but there was a chance of a tar pitting for a turn). It changed things a bit but honestly they ended up hurting him way more than me except 1 of the 3 games we played that way.

I will try keeping my eye out for scenarios in the supplements that I could tweek for us to play since I haven't seen any for csm vs sw.


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Maybe I should stop using the TWC for awhile, They are newer models for me and I just find them really fun to play so I have been trying to include them as much as possible. They have been really hit or miss for me though. For whatever reason I fail their 3++ saves more than when I'm throwing dice for 3+ saves on regular marines. The problem I have is then I am stuck with a bunch of GH, a dreadnought or 2 and some long fangs. With the abundance of plas that we both have termies are just not worth it. blood/sky claws and bikes just dont seem worth it with bs/ws 3. Wouldn't mind trying bikes but I don't have any and don't really want to buy any. A land raider would be a bit overkill at this point, same with a flyer.

I'd have no problem using skyclaws if it wasnt for the bs/ws 3. I used a squad of 5 instead of putting WG w/combi-plas in each squad of GH and they got really lucky and killed 3 marines in cc with only 3 left.

RE Cultists vs CSM: here's an instance I had.

CSM tac squad deploys in a two story building. Opponent deploys TWC opposite.

Turn one: CSM shoot at TWC.

Turnn two: CSM shoot at TWC. TWC declare charge, long shot. CSM Overwatch, TWC charge fails.

Turn three: CSM shoot at TWC. TWC declare charge, basically just needing to climb the stairs. CSM Overwatch. Opponent confuses 'not slowed by difficult terrain' with 'ignores difficult terrain' and accepts correction, forgets that he has assault grenades, strikes last.

Entire CSM squad dies in first round to heavy casualties and failed morale check, after achieving hardly anything with five volleys and a rules confusion giving them first strikes.

Unlucky rolls on my shooting, to be sure, but a squad of Cultists would have performed no differently, and would have enabled me to budget a Havoc autocannon squad that would have taken off more Wounds. MoN and FNP might have saved some of the Marines but as I rolled an 11 for their break test (again, bad luck), they'd still have died in first round of combat.

My rolls sucked but this has been standard in every game where there's been TWC and I've not had a support unit able to throw shots down at them.

I suppose a Maulerfiend with Lasher Tendrils *might* be *adequate* at tarpitting them. They'll only get 1A against it, and after four rounds of combat it'll have ID'd ONE of them. But as long as it's holding them in place (and their TH guy does have an adequate chance of popping the thing), another unit can make a supporting charge and it won't be like jumping into a wood chipper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TWC came up elsewhere; a lv3 Death Guard Sorcerer has a roughly 2/3 chance of being able to reduce their T to 8, whilst usually avoiding charge distance. Then, a Forgefiend or Rapier battery (easily made from Kataphron Servitors and spare parts) can inflict Instant Death. Biomancy cal also do this, 50/50 chance of getting the power.

When CSM play against SW they need to bully them, and by this I mean 2 units charging 1 when it involves CC. Mainly on the thundercalv and wulfen.

I suggest running Deathguard, Chaos warband.

Your friend should bring 3 units of Havocs with Autocannons. Imo this unit is underrated, the fire support is great, the range is great, and the str7 is that sweet number you want for fire support on the cheap. The best part as a deathguard legion, the Havocs can move and re adjust themselves as needed for better angles, or to claim objectives.

I also suggest 1 chaos lord on a bike, blight grenades, 4++ PF, Light Claw, He should run in a pack of 5 spawn with MoN and a Sorcerer. Sorcerer should be lvl 3 with spell familiar, and a bike. Biomancy, Telepathy and the nurgle powers are amazing. The spawn will be t6, hard to wound for basic Calvary, but a psychic buff will make them even scarier. They can hold, and grind it out with the calvary.

Imo MoN Termies are some of the best in the game. 3 man squads, t5 with FnP and combi plas are great. These can hurt basic infantry like no ones business. Unless horribly unlucky, they can man-handle grey hunter squads. I like to take 1 or 2 units for deepstriking them in the backline to put pressure as needed.

3 man MoN bikers with meltas are fantastic for harassing and picking off units. These can usually handle a dreadnought, and get the rear on those shield dreads. Dont miss with your meltas.

The main thing I like is a kitted out daemon prince. lvl 3 psker, wings, armor, spell familiar, with a black mace. Have this beast roll on biomancy to pick up endurance or Iron arm. Fish for some other neat nurgle powers. Have him and the spawn charge the calvary, theyll shred them.

Some important notes:

Str10 is the bane of Nurgle. t6 Chaos lord, and a Prince buffed with eternal warrior or toughness can handle it, do not let yourself get instant killed or have your FnP denied. (Thats another reason why the spawn should have MoN, t6 baby)

Target Priority. At some point in the game, despite the calvary coming in hot..there may be better targets to take out. Aka the calvarys own support.

Don't be discouraged and give up early. Play the game through and think how you can better handle the situation. What units worked, which ones didn't? Which would have helped a certain situation.

Don't underestimate rhinos, these can block a huge charge on SW and can allow you 1 more round of shooting, or to set up a sweet counter charge.

SW are my main loyalist army. Good luck to you chaos player.

That seems to be some solid advice for csm kingcorpus. My friend just tried using some MoN stuff on me and it seemed to help him. I think for the most part he just has to work on strategy, target priority being his biggest issue imo.

I'm not sure all that stuff you mentioned is viable in games around 1000pts but definitely something to keep in mind when we start playing bigger games.

 Son of Russ wrote:


I'm not sure all that stuff you mentioned is viable in games around 1000pts but definitely something to keep in mind when we start playing bigger games.

You can fit a DG warband in a 1K pts. list. Its probably the strongest list if not one of the strongest lists he can put together as pure CSM. He's not gonna afford the DP but he can bring the biker lord with a small biker body guard, a unit of havocs, 2 csm squads in rhinos, 3 termies, one nurgle spawn as the aux and maybe a sorcerer (preferably on bike). The sorcerer can try and roll for spells that lower toughness on the cavalry. They'll all get fnp rerolling 1's, stealth outside 18'' and some other benefits.

After all this great advice I've gotten from you guy, some of it is likely to be irrelevant once 8th comes out. I am kind of excited for it, but i also have some mixed feelings about it so far.

 Son of Russ wrote:
After all this great advice I've gotten from you guy, some of it is likely to be irrelevant once 8th comes out. I am kind of excited for it...

you're welcome, i guess

 koooaei wrote:

 Son of Russ wrote:
After all this great advice I've gotten from you guy, some of it is likely to be irrelevant once 8th comes out. I am kind of excited for it...

you're welcome, i guess

I'm grateful for the advice from everyone, when i started this post i wasnt aware 8th was gonna come out so soon. Who knows i may hate 8th and continue to use 7th. It has helped my friend make better lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 Son of Russ wrote:
After all this great advice I've gotten from you guy, some of it is likely to be irrelevant once 8th comes out. I am kind of excited for it...

you're welcome, i guess

I'm grateful for the advice from everyone, when i started this post i wasnt aware 8th was gonna come out so soon. Who knows i may hate 8th and continue to use 7th. It has helped my friend make better lists.