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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Hi folks,
I'm looking at either a Commisar or a Priest for my AM army (primarily associated with a 20 man Conscript squad).. I love the idea of the Commisar, but at the moment can't find much reason to take him over the priest.

What advantages does the Commisar have which makes him a viable alternative to the priest?

Thanks!
   
Made in ru
Cackling Chaos Conscript





A unit with Commissar can go to ground to get bonus cover save (and then get up back with one of the orders), whilst Priest's Zealot prevents that.
Also Commissar has Ld 9 for orders and can take a power axe or melta bombs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 13:39:06


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Ld9 and stubborn can help vs shreiks too. But yep, it's mostly for orders and going to ground. So a comissar might be more preferable for backfield squads. Also, you can still take a comissar together with priest for backup.
And you can only take 3 priests per detachment.
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Basically what the others have said. I'd personally never use a commissar over a priest for conscripts, but they can be good for backfield infantry platoons with easier orders and gtg opportunities.

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






are you taking an adl? commissar is worth the points in spades. if not pass

add* forgot to mention the commissar takes care of the HQ tax with AM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 21:49:19


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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Hi folks,
I'm looking at either a Commisar or a Priest for my AM army (primarily associated with a 20 man Conscript squad).. I love the idea of the Commisar, but at the moment can't find much reason to take him over the priest.

What advantages does the Commisar have which makes him a viable alternative to the priest?

Thanks!


Priest is better. The Commissar doesnt add enough to an already 40-50 IG squad that it matters in the grand scheme. What's an extra attack or what not really going to avail you there? The ONLY thing he lets you do is "Our Weapons are Useless"...I guess? I honestly don't see the attraction to a comissar other than just because he's in your collection and a Priest isnt?

Or maybe its just because Commissars are in fact a cooler idea, a cooler model and are actually celebrated in the books and lore. From a practical standpoint the Commissar just loses.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 21:25:32


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Doctoralex wrote:
while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.



Priests do not grant Fearless.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 Jancoran wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.



Priests do not grant Fearless.


Well yea, he grants Zealot. Which is Fearless + Hatred (rerolls to hit 1st round of combat).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 21:43:33


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Doctoralex wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.



Priests do not grant Fearless.


Well yea, he grants Zealot. Which is Fearless + Hatred (rerolls to hit 1st round of combat).


Nope. it is tacitly not fearless. They do not gain fearless or any of the benefits of Fearless. Only Zealot. small but significant point.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 Jancoran wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.



Priests do not grant Fearless.


Well yea, he grants Zealot. Which is Fearless + Hatred (rerolls to hit 1st round of combat).


Nope. it is tacitly not fearless. They do not gain fearless or any of the benefits of Fearless. Only Zealot. small but significant point.


?? This is the exact text from the rule-book:

Fearless
Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass
Pinning, Fear, Regroup tests and Morale checks, but cannot Go to Ground and cannot
choose to fail a Morale check due to the Our Weapons Are Useless rule. If a unit has Gone
to Ground and then gains the Fearless special rule, all the effects of Go to Ground are
immediately cancelled.

Zealot

A unit containing one or more models with the Zealot special rule automatically passes
Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests and Morale checks, but cannot Go to Ground and cannot
choose to fail a Morale check due to the Our Weapons Are Useless rule. If a unit gains the
Zealot special rule when it has Gone to Ground, all the effects of Go to Ground are
immediately cancelled.

In addition, units containing one or more models with the Zealot special rule re-roll all
failed To Hit rolls during the first round of each close combat – they do not get to re-roll
failed To Hit rolls in subsequent rounds.


From what I understand Zealot does the exact same thing as Fearless + the Hatred.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/17 23:17:57


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

the game is key word activated. So there may be something that matters to fearless units that doesn't matter to Zealots.

You are in every important way right. For example though: A Psyker power might remove the Fearless special rule. this would not affect the Zealot unit. Just an example. There also used to be (might still be i dunno because i kind of hate the Psyker phase) a power that did this. I can't recall if it was Terrify or some other thing but it removed Fearless specifically. I have to plead ignorance on many Psyker powers because I don't know them all. I tend not to use Psykers when I can get away with it. I was just making that point because there was (is?) a power like that and could be again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 00:15:04


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




North Augusta, SC

Throw a Primaris Psyker that you already going to take in with the blob & priest and you now take orders just as well as a commissar.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I personally prefer priests for the frontlines and comissars for the backfield.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Jancoran wrote:
the game is key word activated. So there may be something that matters to fearless units that doesn't matter to Zealots.

You are in every important way right. For example though: A Psyker power might remove the Fearless special rule. this would not affect the Zealot unit. Just an example. There also used to be (might still be i dunno because i kind of hate the Psyker phase) a power that did this. I can't recall if it was Terrify or some other thing but it removed Fearless specifically. I have to plead ignorance on many Psyker powers because I don't know them all. I tend not to use Psykers when I can get away with it. I was just making that point because there was (is?) a power like that and could be again.


Terrify doesn't remove Fearless anymore. The only things i can think of that would care are special rule Ld test that gives an exemption to Fearless (such as some DE relic IDK the name of, and a Space Wolf relic) in which case Zealot is worse because it doesn't get to ignore the LD test like Fearless does.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Doesn't zealot literally grant fearless + hatred to everyone in the squad?
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Doctoralex wrote:
while the main argument for the Commissar is that you can Go To Ground, there is a neat little trick with the Priest that let's you by-pass this.

Instead of putting your priest in the unit turn one, keep him on his own next to the unit.

Now, you can Go To Ground for 'free' turn 1. Because the Priest can simply join the unit turn 2 and BOOM, they are no longer pinned because they are fearless.

Keep in mind that you might not want this against turn 1 chargers/ a lot of incoming firepower turn 1.



If you are not putting the priest in that unit then it is in a smaller unit that I would look to remove off the board then go for the big unit that can´t get up from fearless after except with an order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
Doesn't zealot literally grant fearless + hatred to everyone in the squad?


It does but as it isn´t fearless it can be ignored by certain rules that say they don´t ignore fearless units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/19 10:02:16


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 koooaei wrote:
Doesn't zealot literally grant fearless + hatred to everyone in the squad?


No.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

Commissar vs. Priest is pretty much up to personal taste. At least a slight majority go with the Priest for the chance at better combat utility, some of us prefer the Commissar for Stubborn, LD bump and Go To Ground. Either unit is pseudo-fearless until you kill the character, with the Priest you have a fair chance of doing ok in a fight with a blob. I tend to use Priest with Conscripts as a First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, basically Fearless speed bump that can hit back in a pinch. I use Commissars in my blobs, as I want the GTG option. If you run power axe blob you might go Priest, if shooty probably Commissar for LD. I'm still not sold on the axe blob myself, although a lot of people like it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The axe blob is god awful and you shouldn't do it

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

It has been mentioned above, that the significant factors are being able to go to ground, and having higher Ld for Orders purposes. In this case, the Commissar is superior.

I prefer them in Conscript Blobs, myself, as I'm not expecting them to win a close combat. I just want to tie them up, and get to where they can hold an objective or otherwise be a nuisance. Given that there are orders to boost offence, move faster, and recover from defensive measures [Get Back in the Fight] I would typically prefer a Commie. I make strong use of orders in my battle plans.

I prefer a Priest with a Veteran squad with Carapace. Better saves is good times with them.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Commissars look cooler.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Why go to ground? Just psyker up and push forward!

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Seattle, WA

Stubborn won't do much to help with being shot. Sure you get the re-roll after capping one of your own models, but who hasn't failed 2 LD9 checks before? Additionally the commissar is just a character (unless you take the scion one), so your look out sirs will be on a 4+. The priest is an independent character so he looks out on a 2+. Lastly you get a rosarius with a 4++ for the priest while the commissar is just rocking a 5++ refractor field.

I choose to use the priest no matter what kind of blob I make. Not having to worry about LD checks and occasionally getting combat boosts like re-rolls for armor saves or to wound rolls is much better. If I want the blob to receive orders I'll be using a commander with the cane that auto-passes orders on anything but box cars. Or I will add another character to boost leadership.

If you're thinking about a commissar, just take an inquisitor. You get 2 more wounds, higher leadership and he's still stubborn. There's really no reason to take a commissar unless you really like the model.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

bogalubov wrote:
Stubborn won't do much to help with being shot. Sure you get the re-roll after capping one of your own models, but who hasn't failed 2 LD9 checks before? Additionally the commissar is just a character (unless you take the scion one), so your look out sirs will be on a 4+. The priest is an independent character so he looks out on a 2+. Lastly you get a rosarius with a 4++ for the priest while the commissar is just rocking a 5++ refractor field.

I choose to use the priest no matter what kind of blob I make. Not having to worry about LD checks and occasionally getting combat boosts like re-rolls for armor saves or to wound rolls is much better. If I want the blob to receive orders I'll be using a commander with the cane that auto-passes orders on anything but box cars. Or I will add another character to boost leadership.

If you're thinking about a commissar, just take an inquisitor. You get 2 more wounds, higher leadership and he's still stubborn. There's really no reason to take a commissar unless you really like the model.


Commissar's Summary Execution is automatic, no roll. Been that way a while now. If you're in a blob, you aren't very likely to need Look Out Sir unless you're facing Barrage weapons. Your point about failing checks is my problem with the Psyker- who hasn't gotten Perils on three or four dice before? Hell, I get them in multiples many games. The Commissar is 100% reliable until dead. It's like the Russ vs. Hellhound argument again. When the psyker or Russ goes without a hitch, they are situationally better (right powers and no Perils in the Psyker's case). Inquisitor is cool but isn't actually an auto-passon LD. They do bring a warlord trait so taking one isn't a bad idea- but they don't come with anything else like the Priest or the rock-solid reliability of the Commissar. I run an Inquisitor on occasion, but I like to have a good fluff reason. We also play more narrative games though, not Tournament lists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my best, math-hammer argument for the Commissar vs. Priest- if you run blobs optimally (as an order taking machine with guns), you're taking a single Vox and you are running the Cadian Detachment for three dice take the lowest and rerolls on Orders. By Going To Ground you increase the survivability of your models by around16.6% and then you will almost always be able to Get Back In the Fight. The Priest disallows that. The number of times I've seen my buddy want to GTG and remember he can't because of a Priest is getting comical. The Priest is almost a liability in smaller games IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/20 17:18:32


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Seattle, WA

aushlo wrote:


Commissar's Summary Execution is automatic, no roll. Been that way a while now. If you're in a blob, you aren't very likely to need Look Out Sir unless you're facing Barrage weapons. Your point about failing checks is my problem with the Psyker- who hasn't gotten Perils on three or four dice before? Hell, I get them in multiples many games. The Commissar is 100% reliable until dead. It's like the Russ vs. Hellhound argument again. When the psyker or Russ goes without a hitch, they are situationally better (right powers and no Perils in the Psyker's case). Inquisitor is cool but isn't actually an auto-passon LD. They do bring a warlord trait so taking one isn't a bad idea- but they don't come with anything else like the Priest or the rock-solid reliability of the Commissar. I run an Inquisitor on occasion, but I like to have a good fluff reason. We also play more narrative games though, not Tournament lists.


Here's my best, math-hammer argument for the Commissar vs. Priest- if you run blobs optimally (as an order taking machine with guns), you're taking a single Vox and you are running the Cadian Detachment for three dice take the lowest and rerolls on Orders. By Going To Ground you increase the survivability of your models by around16.6% and then you will almost always be able to Get Back In the Fight. The Priest disallows that. The number of times I've seen my buddy want to GTG and remember he can't because of a Priest is getting comical. The Priest is almost a liability in smaller games IMO.


Well I guess that tells you the last time I used a commissar in a game.

Not many people actually run the Cadian detachment because that's 165 models base. I usually take one big blob and a conscript blob. Their quality derives from their cheapness for me. In that context, taking losses due to not being able to go to ground is irrelevant to me. But we have to make a decisions for units based on our own play styles and units available.

That applies to the threat of barrage weapons too. Currently they're one of the best way to deal with hordes, so having a plan to keep your key character alive from barrage weapons is important to me. If your meta is not using them, it's less of a concern for you.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

You can do a budget version with like a half-dozen Russ and a single full Platoon as well, it's not as bad as people think model wise. It is best at a bazillion dudes though. I kind of figure the Guard vs. Guard matchup is going to be rare at any competitive level at this point, Wyverns are the big thing to worry about. Don't really see Thunderfires in lists these days with all the drop spam and whatnot.
   
 
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