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Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

Hey all,

I've been messing around with a sf + Defender build for a while but have been hampered somewhat by having to work on the FLGS x-wing night.

So my first iteration involved Maarek Stele, Quickdraw and a bomber (paired Quickdraw with draw their fire and Maarek with score to settle) here. And it's pretty good/fun, but I can't help thinking it could be a bit better.

So the new version swaps out Maarek for Vessery and alters the missile/torps load on the Gamma vet:
=============================
The Quick And The Dead Mk II
=============================
100 points
------

“Quickdraw” (37)
Special Forces TIE (29), Draw Their Fire (1), Fire-Control System (2), Targeting Synchronizer (3), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (27)
TIE Bomber (19), Deadeye (1), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Proton Torpedoes (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

This lets the Defender fly a bit more freely than trying to keep him in R1 of Quickdraw while getting a bigger buff from the FCS.

And in my few practice matches I've been reminded that 4 missiles/torps on a bomber is a bit of a waste, so I burned an extra point (over extra Munitions) for both plasma and proton torps.

I kept draw fire on Quickdraw to prevent the Bomber from getting a blinded pilot or other disabilitating crit early on, but I'm open to other ideas.

What do you think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 17:55:03


 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





I like the SF and Defender

I'm still not convinced by bombers in general and I think in this list people will pummel it first and it'll get one, maybe two torp shots before going boom, obviously YMMV, but maybe experiment with a Striker or FO ?

That said I got spanked by a very similar list at a recent event but that had Crack Shot Bren with G/Chips and a lone Cluster Missile, which combo'd nicely with Targeting Synchronizer for a very reliable Cluster shot

"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"
 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

Thanks for the feedback @turnip.

My general thought was using the bomber as kind of an imperial Biggs: a target to absorb the initial round(s) of fire.

So the challenge was making it threatening enough to be targeted, but cheap enough to allow me to get everything else I wanted (and to some degree to avoid the temptation of "i have a few extra points, why not chuck it on the bomber").

I kinda decided on plasma & proton because plasma torps, fired with target sync, focus and chips, gives a reasonable chance of 5 hit equivalents on the vcx, yt-1300, yt-2600 and even the B-wing vs rebels and against jumpmasters, party bus, aggressors and possibly even the shadowcaster (assuming evade and latts). And proton torps fired with deadeye gives the bomber a decent standalone threat of 4 hits/3+crit.

Omega Leader is probably the stronger ship for 26ish points... but Im experimenting
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Fair enough

As a nice mid 20's 'kill it' threat I'm toying with “Pure Sabacc”with Trick Shot, Adaptive Aileron and Lightweight Frame/SD, takes a bit of careful rock placement and flying but its a cheap and credible threat with 4/5 dice output

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/19 19:05:00


"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

Pure Sabacc really benefits from VI, as I found out tonight.

Man, I'm not going to rant, I swear, but the PS and action economy of the Imperial faction really irks me...

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

@Mathieu, something like this?

97 points
------

“Quickdraw” (34)
Special Forces TIE (29), Draw Their Fire (1), Fire-Control System (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Colonel Vessery (38)
TIE Defender (35), Expertise (4), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

“Pure Sabacc” (25)
TIE Striker (22), Veteran Instincts (1), Adaptive Ailerons (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

I suppose keeping Sabaac in r1 of Quickdraw would be tricky, but it should be doable for the initial approach...
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

I'd never seen Expertise on Vessery. On the surface, it should be hot as hell, and you can still take that focus for evade results.

You're going to have to push Quickdraw hard, and throttle back on Sabacc, eerily enough. Start with Sabacc on the back edge, and Quickdraw as forward as possible.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

I kind of decided to go with expertise on Vessery 'cause I had extra points kicking around, not sure if it's all that great in a meta that includes shadowcaster, though (asajj just turns it right off)...

What about something out of the box like Outmaneuver on Quickdraw? Could make the rear arc more viable...
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

I think the rear arc is a "nice to have" but I wouldn't necessarily invest points in it. The ship itself is almost a B-Wing, so not the greatest dial, not as easy to line up those rear shots.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Score to settle / Debt to Pay might be a lark on Quickdraw, as for them to benefit they have to shoot you, then you get to double tap them

"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"
 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

I don't think the recipient of A Debt to Pay gets to change eyeballs to crits, only the one who took the Score to Settle EPT.

That being said, it might be a good way to just make sure those double taps actually hurt.

Reinforced Deflectors, does it work if some of the damage is on shields, or do the three damage have to be hull? Because if not, you've just found a way to regain shields... a marginal and inefficient way, but it might be enough to make someone hesitate. Mind Games!

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

It's amazing how I can get tunnel vision at times. I was so focused on score/debt for Maarek that I didn't really think about it for Quickdraw. And it could work ...

Holy cow, could I have just found a way to use Marksmanship? For Quickdraw with the possibility of multiple shots (either front & back arcs or normal & revenge) the one action changes all focus to hit for the round!
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I don't think the recipient of A Debt to Pay gets to change eyeballs to crits, only the one who took the Score to Settle EPT.

That being said, it might be a good way to just make sure those double taps actually hurt.

Reinforced Deflectors, does it work if some of the damage is on shields, or do the three damage have to be hull? Because if not, you've just found a way to regain shields... a marginal and inefficient way, but it might be enough to make someone hesitate. Mind Games!


It's symmetrical, the 'trick' is making it 'more' symmetrical in your favour, it likely not great but its 0pts and bears testing, Marksmanship is still terri-bad, even more so as Expertise exists

Score

During setup, before the "Place Forces" step, select 1 enemy ship and assign the 'A Debt To Pay' Condition card to it.

When attacking a ship that has the 'A Debt To Pay' Condition card, you may change 1 focus result to a critical hit result.


Debt

When attacking a ship that has the "A Score to Settle" Upgrade card, you may change 1 focus result to a critical hit result.

"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"
 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

Marksmanship is still terri-bad, even more so as Expertise exists


On the whole, I agree that Marksmanship isn't great, but on a ship with the potential for 4 attacks in a round it gets better.

Yes it costs an action, unlike expertise, but also unlike exp. It can't be "turned off by Asajj.

Despite the manaroo nerf, I still expect to see lots of Fenn/Asajj/ something mindlink lists and the _huge_ weakness of expertise is that it doesn't work with stress.

And in my (admittedly few) practice games with Quickdraw, I've found that s/he doesn't _need_ actions/defensive focus the way some ships do.

This is the build that's been in my brain:

==================
Paratanni Hunters
==================
99 points
------

“Quickdraw” (38)
Special Forces TIE (29), Marksmanship (3), Fire-Control System (2), Pattern Analyzer (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

“Pure Sabacc” (25)
TIE Striker (22), Veteran Instincts (1), Adaptive Ailerons (0), Lightweight Frame (2)
------

View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/694995/paratanni-hunters-

Sabaac could sub out for Omega Leader if you're willing to trust the dice gods for initiative
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






Apostasus wrote:
Yes it costs an action, unlike expertise, but also unlike exp. It can't be "turned off by Asajj.


It can, just not in the conventional way. Stress, even if it's applied after you move, makes you predictable and being predictable gets you blocked.

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

True @peregrine, but it's a lot better than Asajj just laughing at the 4 points for Expertise.

I just noticed that a variety of this (expertise, Vessery with crack and omega leader went to the top 4 at Hoth... where it ran into Nathan Eide... (FWIW I came up with this independently)
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






Apostasus wrote:
True @peregrine, but it's a lot better than Asajj just laughing at the 4 points for Expertise.


Not necessarily. Asajj still has to pick the expertise ship as a target every round, and still has to get the expertise ship in arc (potentially spending actions to rotate it instead of to modify dice). And of course if you can manage to get a range-3 exchange Asajj isn't doing anything.

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

But Asajj is fast and stressing the ship with expertise seems like a no brainer to me @peregrine (though the x7 change does make the Defender an appealing target).

Anyway, here's the Omega Leader variant

=========================
Paratanni Hunters (Mk I)
=========================

100 points
------

“Quickdraw” (38)
Special Forces TIE (29), Marksmanship (3), Fire-Control System (2), Pattern Analyzer (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Colonel Vessery (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

“Omega Leader” (26)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

------
View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/696032/paratanni-hunters-mk-i
------
Possibly swap crack shot for juke on Vessery for an initiative bid and/or less vulnerability to Asajj stress (at least you're not losing juke as well when stress prevents the evade action)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 01:49:44


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

The stress happens in the Attack Phase, not the Movement Phase, so unless you remain stressed (and with TIE Mk II you shouldn't) it shouldn't be an issue to get your evade token.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there is always the possibility that you force Asajj to make bad manoeuvres if she insists on stressing that one ship. If she has to keep her secondary arc on an oddly placed target relative to her, you are shielding the rest of your list from her. This could work to your advantage. Especially if you get to block her or bump so she can stress you but can't attack you, she's not making good use of that stress.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 15:35:32


 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster



Boston

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
The stress happens in the Attack Phase, not the Movement Phase, so unless you remain stressed (and with TIE Mk II you shouldn't) it shouldn't be an issue to get your evade token.

Well it does prevent the k-turn, which can be a problem... but there's always the disengage for a turn plan.
And there is always the possibility that you force Asajj to make bad manoeuvres if she insists on stressing that one ship. If she has to keep her secondary arc on an oddly placed target relative to her, you are shielding the rest of your list from her. This could work to your advantage. Especially if you get to block her or bump so she can stress you but can't attack you, she's not making good use of that stress.

The problem with the bump is that you can't shoot back and force Asajj to take the stress for the extra evade, though. And on Quickdraw that still turns off expertise for shooting at other targets.

But, I have to say that after a few games against the admittedly not great AI on Squadron benchmark that Quickdraw really does want the focus for defense (possibly with sensor cluster) to stay alive/keep shields around for another shot back. So the question of Marksmanship may be answered by the action question
   
 
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