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Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

Hey y'all! I've been working on my own ruleset for tabletop wargame. The two main factions (humans and aliens) will be included at the back of the Main Rule book.
Rules releases for other factions will likely be bundled together.
Long story short, if I go through a game publisher, will they own the intellectual property to the universe background and/or rulesystem I create?

   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

It depends on what you negotiate, anything is possible. There isn't a hard set rule.

In most cases the publisher will want to negotiate to own the rights so they have creative license to change or do what they want. That is the basic difference between determining if you want to "Self Publish" or go through a "Publisher".

You can go with a publisher and have them license the work. In which case you can retain your IP, they will publish, work with it for X time. However there are not a lot of positives to that deal for a publisher.

Say for example they don't want it to be humans and aliens and instead want it to be dragons and demons, they can't do that normally unless they own the rights to it. Changing the theme of a game happens regularly.

It is in the Publisher's best interest if they are buying the rights to everything so they have more creative control. They might like the concept but not the rules or vice versa. If they don't own it then they have to consult you for changes, etc.

No matter what you do. If you do find a publisher, you should always include a buy back or time clause. Some option that if for example they don't do anything with it for X years rights revert back to you. For example the board game Snow Tails the first print was done and the company went under or something. The game would have been gone and lost if it didn't have such a clause. As such after 5 years it reverted rights back to the creators who then sold them to Renegade Games to publish the game later.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Unless you have a reputable publisher offering you a contract, this isn't even something you need to worry about. Most small time outfits struggle to find a publisher. Otherwise, read your contract. And hire a lawyer.

-James
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

 Dark Severance wrote:
It depends on what you negotiate, anything is possible. There isn't a hard set rule.

In most cases the publisher will want to negotiate to own the rights so they have creative license to change or do what they want. That is the basic difference between determining if you want to "Self Publish" or go through a "Publisher".

You can go with a publisher and have them license the work. In which case you can retain your IP, they will publish, work with it for X time. However there are not a lot of positives to that deal for a publisher.

Say for example they don't want it to be humans and aliens and instead want it to be dragons and demons, they can't do that normally unless they own the rights to it. Changing the theme of a game happens regularly.

It is in the Publisher's best interest if they are buying the rights to everything so they have more creative control. They might like the concept but not the rules or vice versa. If they don't own it then they have to consult you for changes, etc.

No matter what you do. If you do find a publisher, you should always include a buy back or time clause. Some option that if for example they don't do anything with it for X years rights revert back to you. For example the board game Snow Tails the first print was done and the company went under or something. The game would have been gone and lost if it didn't have such a clause. As such after 5 years it reverted rights back to the creators who then sold them to Renegade Games to publish the game later.


Very informative. Thank you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jmurph wrote:
Unless you have a reputable publisher offering you a contract, this isn't even something you need to worry about. Most small time outfits struggle to find a publisher. Otherwise, read your contract. And hire a lawyer.


I don't understand... Why shouldn't I be worried about it unless I have a reputable publisher showing interest (as opposed to one that is not reputable?). Or are you saying that I shouldn't even think about this unless I have been made an offer, which quite frankly isn't very helpful. I am trying to learn the ins and outs of the publishing side of game design so that I know what to do and what not to do.

I mainly want to know how I can expose my work to potentially interested parties without fear of my work being stolen. How do I protect my I.P.?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 20:40:03


   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

CplPunishment wrote:
How do I protect my I.P.?
Honestly... you don't really worry about it. The game industry although a multi-billion dollar industry is a pretty small and niche industry. Most game publishers, designers, companies know each other or people in each other's groups fairly well. I've worked with Upper Deck, Cryptozoic Entertainment, IELLO Games, and Renegade Games as well as independents. While with the groups at GenCon, Origins Game Fair or other conventions it isn't uncommon for them to go out to eat, talk with other developers from other companies.

No one is going to steal your ideas. If they did, most developers would know about it fairly quickly. One of my examples is when someone pitched a game to Passport Games. We were having breakfast (I was working with Renegade Games at the time) next to them, the owners were talking about a game. The game was originally pitched to Passport Games, they had asked him to not shop it around as they were interested. They were going to get him a contract that evening. The other guy apparently did shop it around which got to Renegade Games who was also interested. I'm sure the guy was thinking he could play each other against or maybe get a bidding war going on, most 'newer' people. In other industries and markets, it isn't a bad strategy. There is nothing technically wrong with the other guy shopping around since he wasn't under contract. However it was a verbal ask and the person agreed to it. This shows that word of mouth or your word doesn't matter. The end result is neither company picked it up, not sure if he did get it eventually published or not.

The other way to protect it is to talk about it. Talk the hell about it until you are blue in the face. That ensures people know your idea is your idea, that it belongs to you. Don't be afraid that someone will steal your idea. Let's be real here... there are very few "rule systems" that are new. They are all different versions or modifications of an existing system. Sometimes someone will do something new or is able to spin it better, but rule systems aren't really new and different. The lore and history can be different but even then, a lot of is is the same thing just respun stories. There is nothing wrong with that either. Just document it, share it, blog it, website it, facebook it, and interact with the community. It gives exposure and builds interest, plus gets you interacting with people.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 21:20:51


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

 Dark Severance wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
How do I protect my I.P.?
Honestly... you don't really worry about it. The game industry although a multi-billion dollar industry is a pretty small and niche industry. Most game publishers, designers, companies know each other or people in each other's groups fairly well. I've worked with Upper Deck, Cryptozoic Entertainment, IELLO Games, and Renegade Games as well as independents. While with the groups at GenCon, Origins Game Fair or other conventions it isn't uncommon for them to go out to eat, talk with other developers from other companies.

No one is going to steal your ideas. If they did, most developers would know about it fairly quickly. One of my examples is when someone pitched a game to Passport Games. We were having breakfast (I was working with Renegade Games at the time) next to them, the owners were talking about a game. The game was originally pitched to Passport Games, they had asked him to not shop it around as they were interested. They were going to get him a contract that evening. The other guy apparently did shop it around which got to Renegade Games who was also interested. I'm sure the guy was thinking he could play each other against or maybe get a bidding war going on, most 'newer' people. In other industries and markets, it isn't a bad strategy. There is nothing technically wrong with the other guy shopping around since he wasn't under contract. However it was a verbal ask and the person agreed to it. This shows that word of mouth or your word doesn't matter. The end result is neither company picked it up, not sure if he did get it eventually published or not.

The other way to protect it is to talk about it. Talk the hell about it until you are blue in the face. That ensures people know your idea is your idea, that it belongs to you. Don't be afraid that someone will steal your idea. Let's be real here... there are very few "rule systems" that are new. They are all different versions or modifications of an existing system. Sometimes someone will do something new or is able to spin it better, but rule systems aren't really new and different. The lore and history can be different but even then, a lot of is is the same thing just respun stories. There is nothing wrong with that either. Just document it, share it, blog it, website it, facebook it, and interact with the community. It gives exposure and builds interest, plus gets you interacting with people.


Thank you once again! Extremely informative. I've been wanting to post rules on Dakka Dakka, but I was afraid that I would run into legal trouble later on when I try to publish them. I'm definitely more interested in self publishing, since I really want more control over the future of the game.

Another thing is that I do not plan on marketing my own miniatures. If I had the time, energy, talent and contacts, it would be different. That being said, I am content publishing rules that people can use their existing 1/48 scale miniatures for. I realize that this might not be marketable to people who are new to wargaming, but I am targeting veteran wargamers who are sick and tired of games with unbalanced and broken rules. My thinking is that if I focus on the rules, I can make them better, deliver them quicker, and give people the freedom to use their current collection or obtain miniatures from their vendor of choice. Is this a bad idea?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 21:29:55


   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

With all of the "Drive Thru" sites out there, you do not need to have a publisher. However, I recommend some sort of LLC business structure to protect yourself.

I recommend talking to your local Chambe rof Commerce about basic business structures for liability and financial protection before proceeding. Another option is the Small Business Administiration. Finally, your state Dept. of Sate or Commere will often provide free booklets on how to start your own business. These would also be useful to you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 21:29:58


Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




CplPunishment wrote:
but I am targeting veteran wargamers who are sick and tired of games with unbalanced and broken rules. My thinking is that if I focus on the rules, I can make them better, deliver them quicker, and give people the freedom to use their current collection or obtain miniatures from their vendor of choice. Is this a bad idea?


you do realize no matter how you write your rules, there will always be something wrong and some people will never like them or be happy with them, there is no such thing as the perfect game rules.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

 Easy E wrote:
With all of the "Drive Thru" sites out there, you do not need to have a publisher. However, I recommend some sort of LLC business structure to protect yourself.

I recommend talking to your local Chambe rof Commerce about basic business structures for liability and financial protection before proceeding. Another option is the Small Business Administiration. Finally, your state Dept. of Sate or Commere will often provide free booklets on how to start your own business. These would also be useful to you.


Thank you for the advice, very helpful!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
but I am targeting veteran wargamers who are sick and tired of games with unbalanced and broken rules. My thinking is that if I focus on the rules, I can make them better, deliver them quicker, and give people the freedom to use their current collection or obtain miniatures from their vendor of choice. Is this a bad idea?


you do realize no matter how you write your rules, there will always be something wrong and some people will never like them or be happy with them, there is no such thing as the perfect game rules.


Oh, I am well aware of this. My goal is not to please everybody, it is to make a ruleset that revolves around balancing the game, not promoting the latest sculpt. I am aware that my ruleset is bound to have flaws of its own and that not all wargamers will like the differences compared to their game of choice. That being said, I am confident that the rules I have drafted will appeal to many people who are sick of the current Merry-go-round Meta.

It also helps that two of the first three factions I'm writing rules for ought to appeal to gamers who feel like their favorite race is neglected in their game-of-choice-which-shall-not-be-named...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 21:45:48


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




CplPunishment wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
With all of the "Drive Thru" sites out there, you do not need to have a publisher. However, I recommend some sort of LLC business structure to protect yourself.

I recommend talking to your local Chambe rof Commerce about basic business structures for liability and financial protection before proceeding. Another option is the Small Business Administiration. Finally, your state Dept. of Sate or Commere will often provide free booklets on how to start your own business. These would also be useful to you.


Thank you for the advice, very helpful!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
but I am targeting veteran wargamers who are sick and tired of games with unbalanced and broken rules. My thinking is that if I focus on the rules, I can make them better, deliver them quicker, and give people the freedom to use their current collection or obtain miniatures from their vendor of choice. Is this a bad idea?


you do realize no matter how you write your rules, there will always be something wrong and some people will never like them or be happy with them, there is no such thing as the perfect game rules.


Oh, I am well aware of this. My goal is not to please everybody, it is to make a ruleset that revolves around balancing the game, not promoting the latest sculpt. I am aware that my ruleset is bound to have flaws of its own and that not all wargamers will like the differences compared to their game of choice. That being said, I am confident that the rules I have drafted will appeal to many people who are sick of the current Merry-go-round Meta.

It also helps that two of the first three factions I'm writing rules for ought to appeal to gamers who feel like their favorite race is neglected in their game-of-choice-which-shall-not-be-named...


thats another thing, there is no such thing as a balanced game, with all the rules lawyers and rules benders, they will find a way to unbalance the game. also as to your 3 factions which were neglected in a game not named, beware of copyright laws, especially with companies GW and PB and such, they see even the slightest thing like their game and they will shut you down faster then you can blink.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

Asterios wrote:
it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.


Thanks for your input! I have been working very hard to create something "unique" yet "familiar". "Unique" enough to not steal another company's IP, yet "familiar" enough that people could use miniatures they already own, regardless of the manufacturer. The tricky part is figuring out what Sci-fi tropes are "up for grabs" (A certain Game Publishing company I have in mind is notorious for "taking inspiration" from existing sci-fi/fantasy movies/novels/universes, not to mention historical armies, cultures and world religions) and what is "off-limits". This is quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing my game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
With all of the "Drive Thru" sites out there, you do not need to have a publisher. However, I recommend some sort of LLC business structure to protect yourself.

I recommend talking to your local Chambe rof Commerce about basic business structures for liability and financial protection before proceeding. Another option is the Small Business Administiration. Finally, your state Dept. of Sate or Commere will often provide free booklets on how to start your own business. These would also be useful to you.


Thank you for the advice, very helpful!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
but I am targeting veteran wargamers who are sick and tired of games with unbalanced and broken rules. My thinking is that if I focus on the rules, I can make them better, deliver them quicker, and give people the freedom to use their current collection or obtain miniatures from their vendor of choice. Is this a bad idea?


you do realize no matter how you write your rules, there will always be something wrong and some people will never like them or be happy with them, there is no such thing as the perfect game rules.


Oh, I am well aware of this. My goal is not to please everybody, it is to make a ruleset that revolves around balancing the game, not promoting the latest sculpt. I am aware that my ruleset is bound to have flaws of its own and that not all wargamers will like the differences compared to their game of choice. That being said, I am confident that the rules I have drafted will appeal to many people who are sick of the current Merry-go-round Meta.

It also helps that two of the first three factions I'm writing rules for ought to appeal to gamers who feel like their favorite race is neglected in their game-of-choice-which-shall-not-be-named...


thats another thing, there is no such thing as a balanced game, with all the rules lawyers and rules benders, they will find a way to unbalance the game. also as to your 3 factions which were neglected in a game not named, beware of copyright laws, especially with companies GW and PB and such, they see even the slightest thing like their game and they will shut you down faster then you can blink.


You misunderstand me. I suspect the two factions would appeal to players of neglected factions of an un-named game. The factions in my game are not the same as the neglected factions I mentioned. I will make this differentiation more clear with artwork, faction descriptions and the like.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/18 22:03:01


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




CplPunishment wrote:
Asterios wrote:
it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.


Thanks for your input! I have been working very hard to create something "unique" yet "familiar". "Unique" enough to not steal another company's IP, yet "familiar" enough that people could use miniatures they already own, regardless of the manufacturer. The tricky part is figuring out what Sci-fi tropes are "up for grabs" (A certain Game Publishing company I have in mind is notorious for "taking inspiration" from existing sci-fi/fantasy movies/novels/universes, not to mention historical armies, cultures and world religions) and what is "off-limits". This is quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing my game.


its a tricky slope indeed, as it goes one company sued another company cause they had the word RIFTs in their game, another sued a book author cause they had the troop type in their book title, they did not win in both cases, but some people cannot afford to fight such litigation.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

CplPunishment wrote:
Asterios wrote:
it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.


Thanks for your input! I have been working very hard to create something "unique" yet "familiar". "Unique" enough to not steal another company's IP, yet "familiar" enough that people could use miniatures they already own, regardless of the manufacturer. The tricky part is figuring out what Sci-fi tropes are "up for grabs" (A certain Game Publishing company I have in mind is notorious for "taking inspiration" from existing sci-fi/fantasy movies/novels/universes, not to mention historical armies, cultures and world religions) and what is "off-limits". This is quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing my game.


One suggestion would be not to focus entirely on being the antithesis of another game company (I think we know who you are describing ). Besides there already being a few larger companies trying to capitalize on "that other company's" missteps and failures, you run the risk of missing potential business opportunities if you shun those opportunities because "they" do something similar.

Which brings up my next question. Is this a project you see as a hobby or something you hope to monetize? I ask because while being able to use existing models with a new rule set is a bonus for players, it doesn't often make the person providing the rules much money. Rules are kinda loss leaders that you hope drive people towards your miniature line.

For Wreck Age, we promote people trying our rules with their existing figures, but we ultimately hope they like the rules/setting enough to buy some of our models too. So, if this is a business venture how do you plan to make money without selling miniatures?
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

CplPunishment wrote:
My goal is not to please everybody, it is to make a ruleset that revolves around balancing the game, not promoting the latest sculpt.
Not to derail the discussion a bit. Game imbalance serves a purpose, balanced games are actually pretty dull, boring and predictable. Game imbalance can and often serves a purpose.

As a real base example we'll say Warrior > Rogue > Mage > Warrior, it is basically a rock, paper, scissors. There is a part that wants to say that a Rogue should be able to always beat a Warrior and Mage equally and vice-versa. That means the game comes down to player skill and if both players are equally skilled, then we are really looking at the dice rolls. Might as roll roll to see who goes first and that determines the winner.

To give a real world example we'll refer to another trinity: Fast, Good and Cheap. You can pick 2, never 3, just 2. Game Imbalance introduces a very similar method that a player can pick 2 usually, they could either be Rogues and Mages or just Mages/Mages but they couldn't be all three. This means the other player might have the rock to the scissors but then also has to apply it properly.

The issue most casual gamers fall into it, they build what they like. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But if you are playing at a game store and only want to play Mage and always playing against Warriors, then the Mage players will always be OP and seem unbalanced. The warrior doesn't want to change to Rogue because they really like Warriors or when they go to tournaments everyone brings Rogue, so he plays Warrior. The Meta is part of playing the game. Those that don't understand that simply then blame it on the dice, the game design or that it is unbalanced.

That said.. that doesn't mean there doesn't' exist imbalance. However it tends to be because they do new releases every 6-12 months. This allows them to introduce new units, which then cause a change and shift into the Meta. If there was no change, then no one would ever buy new models. The rule of 80/20 states that typically 20% of a game companies customers comprise of roughly 80% of their revenue. Those tend to be the competitive players, sometimes collectors but mostly competitive players who buy new units to adjust to the Meta. Although 80% of the customers are casual, they usually aren't buying new models but because they also tend to be a vocal group. That doesn't mean competitive players aren't vocal and these are just rough numbers but an example of why games look broken upon a casual look.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
Asterios wrote:
it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.


Thanks for your input! I have been working very hard to create something "unique" yet "familiar". "Unique" enough to not steal another company's IP, yet "familiar" enough that people could use miniatures they already own, regardless of the manufacturer. The tricky part is figuring out what Sci-fi tropes are "up for grabs" (A certain Game Publishing company I have in mind is notorious for "taking inspiration" from existing sci-fi/fantasy movies/novels/universes, not to mention historical armies, cultures and world religions) and what is "off-limits". This is quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing my game.


One suggestion would be not to focus entirely on being the antithesis of another game company (I think we know who you are describing ). Besides there already being a few larger companies trying to capitalize on "that other company's" missteps and failures, you run the risk of missing potential business opportunities if you shun those opportunities because "they" do something similar.

Which brings up my next question. Is this a project you see as a hobby or something you hope to monetize? I ask because while being able to use existing models with a new rule set is a bonus for players, it doesn't often make the person providing the rules much money. Rules are kinda loss leaders that you hope drive people towards your miniature line.

For Wreck Age, we promote people trying our rules with their existing figures, but we ultimately hope they like the rules/setting enough to buy some of our models too. So, if this is a business venture how do you plan to make money without selling miniatures?


Appreciate the Input! Yet another angle I hadn't considered!
Yes, I do plan on making money, which is why I want to make rules with my own unique (as unique as sci-fi battlefield tropes can be anyway...) I.P. rather than shamelessly stealing another company's factions unit for unit. Now, I would love to make my own miniatures, but I do not have the time, talent or money for that part of the game. So unless there is a profitable way to publish and market my rules to the casual wargaming community, this might just be a dead end project...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dark Severance wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
My goal is not to please everybody, it is to make a ruleset that revolves around balancing the game, not promoting the latest sculpt.
Not to derail the discussion a bit. Game imbalance serves a purpose, balanced games are actually pretty dull, boring and predictable. Game imbalance can and often serves a purpose.

As a real base example we'll say Warrior > Rogue > Mage > Warrior, it is basically a rock, paper, scissors. There is a part that wants to say that a Rogue should be able to always beat a Warrior and Mage equally and vice-versa. That means the game comes down to player skill and if both players are equally skilled, then we are really looking at the dice rolls. Might as roll roll to see who goes first and that determines the winner.

To give a real world example we'll refer to another trinity: Fast, Good and Cheap. You can pick 2, never 3, just 2. Game Imbalance introduces a very similar method that a player can pick 2 usually, they could either be Rogues and Mages or just Mages/Mages but they couldn't be all three. This means the other player might have the rock to the scissors but then also has to apply it properly.

The issue most casual gamers fall into it, they build what they like. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But if you are playing at a game store and only want to play Mage and always playing against Warriors, then the Mage players will always be OP and seem unbalanced. The warrior doesn't want to change to Rogue because they really like Warriors or when they go to tournaments everyone brings Rogue, so he plays Warrior. The Meta is part of playing the game. Those that don't understand that simply then blame it on the dice, the game design or that it is unbalanced.

That said.. that doesn't mean there doesn't' exist imbalance. However it tends to be because they do new releases every 6-12 months. This allows them to introduce new units, which then cause a change and shift into the Meta. If there was no change, then no one would ever buy new models. The rule of 80/20 states that typically 20% of a game companies customers comprise of roughly 80% of their revenue. Those tend to be the competitive players, sometimes collectors but mostly competitive players who buy new units to adjust to the Meta. Although 80% of the customers are casual, they usually aren't buying new models but because they also tend to be a vocal group. That doesn't mean competitive players aren't vocal and these are just rough numbers but an example of why games look broken upon a casual look.


Yet again, an informative, in-depth peek into the world of self-publishing wargames. Thank you!
I agree that some degree of imbalance must exist, I just feel that it is extremely exaggerated in some tabletop wargames. My goal is not to eliminate imbalance entirely, but to make it so that any given faction has at least a fighting chance against any other given faction. My goal is a system where unit X from faction A beats Unit Y from faction B, etc., rather than faction A beats faction B, which beats faction C which beats faction A. Perhaps this is not possible as there will always be THAT GUY who finds the exploit I overlooked... But I will darn well try!

It is helpful to understand where the revenue comes from, since I am mainly targeting casual veteran wargamers with existing collections of who-knows-what! But from the sound of it, a typical gaming company's main revenue comes from the veteran tourney crowd who has absolutely NO use for my product whatsoever. They need official models and official rules.
So this makes me wonder if it is worth pursuing further?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/18 22:55:41


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

CplPunishment wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:
Asterios wrote:
it all depends on how you present it, some companies have rules which they usually make clear any work submitted to them for publication they will own the rights too (mainly with gaming magazines and such), now if you are looking for a publisher, I'd avoid that all together since now a days it is easier to self publish, sure you won't have the brand recognition, but you will have full control of the rights, unlike going thru a publisher who wants to retain some control since it is their rep and neck on the line and they want to make sure there is nothing that could slightly offend or create libel.

but if you do intend to "shop" your work around have a brief synopsis of the game to show to potential publishers, also check around and find out which publishers are worth checking or good to check with and which publishers to avoid like the plague.

also when it comes to your work and IP protection, make sure nothing you have is some other companies IP and or copyright.

also when it comes to introducing a game to publishers, it could take years if even that to get a positive nibble since the game publishing market is flooded with potential games and such which is why Kickstarter was a boon to people breaking into the game industry.


Thanks for your input! I have been working very hard to create something "unique" yet "familiar". "Unique" enough to not steal another company's IP, yet "familiar" enough that people could use miniatures they already own, regardless of the manufacturer. The tricky part is figuring out what Sci-fi tropes are "up for grabs" (A certain Game Publishing company I have in mind is notorious for "taking inspiration" from existing sci-fi/fantasy movies/novels/universes, not to mention historical armies, cultures and world religions) and what is "off-limits". This is quite possibly the trickiest aspect of designing my game.


One suggestion would be not to focus entirely on being the antithesis of another game company (I think we know who you are describing ). Besides there already being a few larger companies trying to capitalize on "that other company's" missteps and failures, you run the risk of missing potential business opportunities if you shun those opportunities because "they" do something similar.

Which brings up my next question. Is this a project you see as a hobby or something you hope to monetize? I ask because while being able to use existing models with a new rule set is a bonus for players, it doesn't often make the person providing the rules much money. Rules are kinda loss leaders that you hope drive people towards your miniature line.

For Wreck Age, we promote people trying our rules with their existing figures, but we ultimately hope they like the rules/setting enough to buy some of our models too. So, if this is a business venture how do you plan to make money without selling miniatures?


Appreciate the Input! Yet another angle I hadn't considered!
Yes, I do plan on making money, which is why I want to make rules with my own unique (as unique as sci-fi battlefield tropes can be anyway...) I.P. rather than shamelessly stealing another company's factions unit for unit. Now, I would love to make my own miniatures, but I do not have the time, talent or money for that part of the game. So unless there is a profitable way to publish and market my rules to the casual wargaming community, this might just be a dead end project...


I am definitely not trying to discourage you!

One thing that came to mind when I was initially responding to your post was perhaps you partnering with miniature manufacturers without rule sets assigned to their ranges and working out a support system where your rules accommodate their models. Hypothetically you sell their models on your site while they sell your rules on their sites and both sides promote the other, etc.

That is essentially Battletech works with the game's miniatures and rules. One company licensed the miniature rights and produces those, while another company licensed the rule/universe rights and creates books and other gaming materials for the game. Together the two companies provide players with what is needed to play Battletech.

Anyway, there isn't only one way to go in this industry, but you definitely want to look at revenue streams and how you can fund the creation of new products. Writing can be done cheaply (unfortunately! ) but artwork and all the stuff that makes a game marketable takes money.

But don't get discouraged, just know what you are up against and try to think of ways to get paid while maintaining your vision.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the problem with miniature gaming is the market has a glut of them so unless you have something that makes your game stick out, it is doomed to die, furthermore if you don't have some miniature line for your game it is doomed to die and relegated to the RPG market, and even then if you do miniatures, you have to add new things too your line once or twice a year or it will stagnate and die, I understand you don't want to create a game around certain miniatures or miniatures but to work with other company miniatures, its a nice novel idea, but not a new one and several people have come out with such rules and such and put them out their for free, check out Mikes Nodal Wars: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708283.page#9291131 .

what it comes down too is trying to jump start your own game is neither easy, nor cheap especially if you expect to make money from it.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

CplPunishment wrote:
Yet again, an informative, in-depth peek into the world of self-publishing wargames. Thank you!
I agree that some degree of imbalance must exist, I just feel that it is extremely exaggerated in some tabletop wargames. My goal is not to eliminate imbalance entirely, but to make it so that any given faction has at least a fighting chance against any other given faction. My goal is a system where unit X from faction A beats Unit Y from faction B, etc., rather than faction A beats faction B, which beats faction C which beats faction A. Perhaps this is not possible as there will always be THAT GUY who finds the exploit I overlooked... But I will darn well try!

It is helpful to understand where the revenue comes from, since I am mainly targeting casual veteran wargamers with existing collections of who-knows-what! But from the sound of it, a typical gaming company's main revenue comes from the veteran tourney crowd who has absolutely NO use for my product whatsoever. They need official models and official rules.
So this makes me wonder if it is worth pursuing further?
YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)... I'm not an expert by any means. Just explaining some of the roadblocks, pitfalls and experiences that I have been part of. There are always exceptions and there is also timing. You can't win the lottery if you don't play. ^_^ I don't mean the "getting rich part" but more the lucky part that exists, if you don't go after something then it can never exist.

I know a few industry people and I could probably get a beneficial ear if not support... however I'm not the type to leverage that while someone else will be. Most of the people I know are board gamers not miniatures gamers, so my product isn't a fit for them anyways. Not to mention I'd like them to be excited and want to do something, not because I called in a favor.

Don't be discouraged. For people like us the rule of 80/20 is a bit different. That tends to apply to an established companies and mediums. Take 40K and even Infinity players for examples. A good portion of competitive players tend to play "one miniatures game" or have one large scale game and one skirmish game. There are a lot of gamers, that doesn't mean you are limited on who would want something. That means there are 80% potential customers out there so there are more people that are accepting of the rules, the casual players are a good market to target especially for rules. If you just look at DakkaDakka as a small example, many players here collect, play multiple rulesets but may only have a smaller set of miniatures.

Me for example. I'm a casual player. I have armies and rulesets for many games. I usually collect miniatures based on them appealing to me, which usually means I end up getting the rules. I also collect rules to learn and better increase my own knowledge and understanding. Some designers come up with better ideas. It also doesn't hurt to partner up with someone in terms of miniatures, if you are interested in rules. It means you get to focus on lore, history and rules. Someone else gets to focus miniatures. I can tell you as a small company it is getting to where I'm going to have to get a writer or someone to work on the rules. Between working with artists, sculptors, designing multiple games it becomes harder to wear all the hats. I'm already behind on writing parts that should have been completed but that is because I had to repair some prototypes, change designs for one project, organize artwork for another... plus I work a regular full time job for now at least.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've written my own rules set and have posted it here and also on a Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1642366472704877/

You will ALWAYS have people who do and do not like your rules. Many of those who do will go crazy trying to find ways to break it and somehow get some cool advantage over other players. The more fanatical they are on the rules the more likely they are to try to break them and find a way to take advantage and win over other players. It has happened with every game ever made and will never stop.

I wish more that people would simply enjoy the game but most of us minis gamers spend more time making armies and painting than actually playing.

Now my game is made for players like Dark Severance and myself. We are casual gamers with minis for a lot of games. I play all sci-fi giant robot stuff (Battletech, Robotech, CAV, and more.) or space combat with starships (Star Wars Armada, Dropfleet Commander, Babylon 5). The idea is that I can use any of my robots and their accompanying tanks and infantry (6mm-10mm or more) and use them all on the same table and fight each other. I could even use something like Space Marines. I would just make stats appropriate for giant infantry. The idea is to not limit myself to playing with just a few minis. I already have many Robotech and Battletech minis converted as well as rules for custom units. There is an excel spreadsheet as well as a guide in Powerpoint as to how to make and figure out the cost of a unit. I also have numerous videos already up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR39dO35g7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoBaNFzkMHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuL_0yJ-bj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9cu6HONRS0


I wish you good luck but you will need to spend a lot of time and energy if you expect to do more than publish the rules for a game and have them look professional.


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Catachan

Here are the beginnings of my game! Thanks for following!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/723803.page#9313244

   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Something I learned a long time ago is that you do not make rules to please others, you make rules because it pleases you.

If you are lucky, you will then be able to get others to buy your rules too.

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