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ITC invisibility: "For ITC format events, The Invisibility psychic power is altered to read: units shooting at the Invisible unit do so at BS1, and hit it in melee on a 5+."

Psyocculum: "The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more"

You shoot at BS1, regardless of what your BS is, so even with the Psyocculum you'd still shoot at BS1, right?

How does the ITC treat the Lance and Quantum Shielding interaction? That's probably the best way to look at it.

Or, you know, ask them. This is not an ITC exclusive forum, after all.

Wouldn't they cancel each other out and you hit at normal BS? Both count the unit's Bs as some figure when shooting, so can't both apply. The BRB faq had a similar point where they said to cancel the effects iirc.


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Then again, I can't seem to find it at a first glance.

 Roknar wrote:
Wouldn't they cancel each other out and you hit at normal BS? Both count the unit's Bs as some figure when shooting, so can't both apply. The BRB faq had a similar point where they said to cancel the effects iirc.


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Then again, I can't seem to find it at a first glance.

And the GW FAQ have given other situations over to the BRB, not allowing the codex rule to override the BRB rule, despite Basic vs Advanced.

 Roknar wrote:
Wouldn't they cancel each other out and you hit at normal BS? Both count the unit's Bs as some figure when shooting, so can't both apply. The BRB faq had a similar point where they said to cancel the effects iirc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, I can't seem to find it at a first glance.

That had only been something they trotted out in FAQs of specific items against each other. This almost sounds like two set modifiers dueling against each other, which would technically go to whoever's turn it is (presumably the person shooting). ITC should have said that it resolves at BS 1 regardless of actual ballistic skill to try to get around that type of conflict.

This is not basic vs advanced this is basic vs basic.
The psyocculum does not have a special rule, the modifers rules are a basic rule. Because it is not a special rule the basic modifer rules are used. This is not advanced because it is not an effect being applied to a specific model it is being applied to a unit.

The additive value increases your BS to 10, then set values are applies last so it gets set to 1. I guess what really matters is if "counts as" is additive or a set value.


Now since it isn't snapshooting there is a sequencing rule in the brb it says that if two effects would happen at the same time the player whose turn it is determines the order.

Modifers rules are on page 8 brb.

In what world is "counts as X" additive? Oo

Ceann wrote:
This is not basic vs advanced this is basic vs basic.
The psyocculum does not have a special rule, the modifers rules are a basic rule. Because it is not a special rule the basic modifer rules are used. This is not advanced because it is not an effect being applied to a specific model it is being applied to a unit.

The additive value increases your BS to 10, then set values are applies last so it gets set to 1. I guess what really matters is if "counts as" is additive or a set value.


Now since it isn't snapshooting there is a sequencing rule in the brb it says that if two effects would happen at the same time the player whose turn it is determines the order.

Modifers rules are on page 8 brb.

Don't get started on that here.

How to use Modifiers is a basic rule. APPLYING modifiers requires advanced rules.

You don't even know what an advanced rule is.

Is hammerhand an advanced rule or a basic rule?
It isn't an infantry model so it's advanced right?
Well it doesn't apply to a specific model so it isn't?


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 Roknar wrote:
In what world is "counts as X" additive? Oo

I'm not sure how GW defines the term. I have played other games where setting a value from a lower one to a higher counts as adding the difference.

So it would depend on how they define the term.

Keep that discussion in the other thread please. It's already about as derailed as can get, no need to derail another.

Ceann wrote:
You don't even know what an advanced rule is.

Is hammerhand an advanced rule or a basic rule?
It isn't an infantry model so it's advanced right?
Well it doesn't apply to a specific model so it isn't?

I quoted it enough for you and you still haven't accepted it.

And as I said, leave that in the other thread.

 Marmatag wrote:
ITC invisibility: "For ITC format events, The Invisibility psychic power is altered to read: units shooting at the Invisible unit do so at BS1, and hit it in melee on a 5+."

Psyocculum: "The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more"

You shoot at BS1, regardless of what your BS is, so even with the Psyocculum you'd still shoot at BS1, right?

I would be inclined to say you shoot at BS1 Still... Due to that is how it would of played before ITC did their silly rules changes (as it forced snapshots instead of BS1)

GodDamUser wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
ITC invisibility: "For ITC format events, The Invisibility psychic power is altered to read: units shooting at the Invisible unit do so at BS1, and hit it in melee on a 5+."

Psyocculum: "The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more"

You shoot at BS1, regardless of what your BS is, so even with the Psyocculum you'd still shoot at BS1, right?

I would be inclined to say you shoot at BS1 Still... Due to that is how it would of played before ITC did their silly rules changes (as it forced snapshots instead of BS1)

The way I read it was:

You shoot a number of ballistic skill 10 shots at the target. These count as ballistic skill 1 when rolling for the purposes of hits.

It's still not immediately clear from the wording, but this seems like the intent based on how invisibility worked prior.

Although anything that damages the effectiveness of invisibility - i'm all for it.


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 Charistoph wrote:
How does the ITC treat the Lance and Quantum Shielding interaction? That's probably the best way to look at it.

Or, you know, ask them. This is not an ITC exclusive forum, after all.

Okay, that's fair. I will try and submit for an FAQ.

If you want to submit an argument.
I would argue that the psker power is a basic rule in the BRB.
Psyocculum is an advanced rule as it is wargear acquired on the units Army List Entry.

It should have precedence over the psyker power.

The key part is if you read ALL of psyocculum, it states at the end that this has no effect if the bearer and his unit are firing snapshots, so unless they are FORCING you to snapshoot then it should be BS10.

Because you aren't snapshooting it should be BS 10. The rules for sequencing under "The Turn" state that if effects would happen at the same time, then who ever's turn it is, decides the order.

This would still be BS 10 on your turn, he could only make you BS 1 durning overwatch on his own turn, but that isn't relevant either way.

 Marmatag wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
ITC invisibility: "For ITC format events, The Invisibility psychic power is altered to read: units shooting at the Invisible unit do so at BS1, and hit it in melee on a 5+."

Psyocculum: "The bearer of a psyocculum (and his unit) count as being Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker, or a unit containing one or more"

You shoot at BS1, regardless of what your BS is, so even with the Psyocculum you'd still shoot at BS1, right?

I would be inclined to say you shoot at BS1 Still... Due to that is how it would of played before ITC did their silly rules changes (as it forced snapshots instead of BS1)

The way I read it was:

You shoot a number of ballistic skill 10 shots at the target. These count as ballistic skill 1 when rolling for the purposes of hits.

It's still not immediately clear from the wording, but this seems like the intent based on how invisibility worked prior.

Although anything that damages the effectiveness of invisibility - i'm all for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
How does the ITC treat the Lance and Quantum Shielding interaction? That's probably the best way to look at it.

Or, you know, ask them. This is not an ITC exclusive forum, after all.

Okay, that's fair. I will try and submit for an FAQ.

The problem is that the quote provided for ITC's Invisibility is that "they shoot at BS1", not that "the shots are resolved as BS1". Resolving the shots would be a way of overriding the normal sequencing rules. If you just read it as it counts as BS1, then you have dueling set modifiers of "count as BS1" for Invisitibility and "count as BS10" for Psyocculum, which would be conflicting set modifiers which we are told would be applied according to whichever player's turn it is. I wouldn't be surprised if their intent was for it to be BS1 even if a psyocculum is used, but that's not how it's written. It's definitely something to ask them to FAQ; they might change the wording up enough on invisibility to make it clear.

I have submitted an FAQ. I'll come back and post the results here, if i get them.

I actually hope the psyocculum overrides invisibility. that would be downright cool.

Ceann wrote:
If you want to submit an argument.
I would argue that the psker power is a basic rule in the BRB.
Psyocculum is an advanced rule as it is wargear acquired on the units Army List Entry.

It should have precedence over the psyker power.

The key part is if you read ALL of psyocculum, it states at the end that this has no effect if the bearer and his unit are firing snapshots, so unless they are FORCING you to snapshoot then it should be BS10.

Because you aren't snapshooting it should be BS 10. The rules for sequencing under "The Turn" state that if effects would happen at the same time, then who ever's turn it is, decides the order.

This would still be BS 10 on your turn, he could only make you BS 1 durning overwatch on his own turn, but that isn't relevant either way.

The Psyocculum is a Codex rule, not an Advanced Rule. Invisibility comes from the rulebook. No matter if it is Basic or Advanced, Codex trumps rulebook rules.

There is no such thing as a "codex rule". A rule from a codex that is not in the BRB, is an advanced rule, or it is a special rule when specified.

Codex only takes precedence if there is a conflict, in this case there is, a basic rule, as a psyker power "from brb" is changing a value to a specific number and an advanced rule "from a codex" is changing a value to a specific number.

If you want to open a thread about basic vs advanced, feel free.

Ceann wrote:
This is not basic vs advanced this is basic vs basic.
The psyocculum does not have a special rule, the modifers rules are a basic rule. Because it is not a special rule the basic modifer rules are used. This is not advanced because it is not an effect being applied to a specific model it is being applied to a unit.

The additive value increases your BS to 10, then set values are applies last so it gets set to 1. I guess what really matters is if "counts as" is additive or a set value.


Now since it isn't snapshooting there is a sequencing rule in the brb it says that if two effects would happen at the same time the player whose turn it is determines the order.

Modifers rules are on page 8 brb.

This is about an ITC house rule, BRB or Codex predence means nothing here.

As simply as that.

Well if it as simple as that...

Then no one here can actually answer the question, now can they?

Well in the inquisition FAQ:

Q: In Codex: Inquisition, the psyocculum grants the bearer
and his unit Ballistic Skill 10 when shooting Psykers – does this
apply before or after you count your Ballistic Skill as 1 for firing
Snap Shots at, for example, a Swooping Hive Tyrant?
A: The rules for firing Snap Shots take precedence in
this case; the unit’s Ballistic Skill is increased to 10, but
when firing Snap Shots, their Ballistic Skill still counts as
being 1.

And to further muddy the waters:

Q: Is Invisibility affected by Ballistic Skill modifiers?
A: Only if the modifier states that it specifically affects
Snap Shots.

Since snap shots are removed, it would also stand to reason that the psyocculum could in fact affect the invisible unit.

As far as I am aware the only modifier that directly effects snapshots offhand is Cognis, there might be something else out there.

Really the ultimate factor will be whether they are applying snap shots or not. If they aren't then on your turn you can choose the order of modifiers since they are both the same type of modifier and apply the BS 10 last.

Ceann wrote:There is no such thing as a "codex rule". A rule from a codex that is not in the BRB, is an advanced rule, or it is a special rule when specified.

Codex only takes precedence if there is a conflict, in this case there is, a basic rule, as a psyker power "from brb" is changing a value to a specific number and an advanced rule "from a codex" is changing a value to a specific number.

If you want to open a thread about basic vs advanced, feel free.

Read the 3rd paragraph of Basic vs Advanced. It talks about Codex Rules.

Lord Perversor wrote:This is about an ITC house rule, BRB or Codex predence means nothing here.

As simply as that.

Not necessarily. If they have not changed this in their house rules, then it still applies.

Ceann wrote:As far as I am aware the only modifier that directly effects snapshots offhand is Cognis, there might be something else out there.

Tau Markerlights are the most easily accessed one.

 Marmatag wrote:
Well in the inquisition FAQ:

Q: In Codex: Inquisition, the psyocculum grants the bearer
and his unit Ballistic Skill 10 when shooting Psykers – does this
apply before or after you count your Ballistic Skill as 1 for firing
Snap Shots at, for example, a Swooping Hive Tyrant?
A: The rules for firing Snap Shots take precedence in
this case; the unit’s Ballistic Skill is increased to 10, but
when firing Snap Shots, their Ballistic Skill still counts as
being 1.

And to further muddy the waters:

Q: Is Invisibility affected by Ballistic Skill modifiers?
A: Only if the modifier states that it specifically affects
Snap Shots.

Since snap shots are removed, it would also stand to reason that the psyocculum could in fact affect the invisible unit.

With the reword by ITC and these FAQ specifically pointing out the FAQ responses, I would say as is that you are at BS 10 on your turn. The limiting factor per the FAQ was SnapShots and with that gone in the reword, so goes the restriction.

Could we not have the Advanced rules argument here as well..

This is a legit question that can effect tourney play

I have come to the same conclusion as Brother Ramses.

RAW at least I agree with Brother Ramses as well.

I do have to say that the basic vs advanced arguments are missing something -

basic<advanced><ITC rules they make for their tournaments.

If their intention was for it to still be BS1 even with psyocculum and something, they know what their intention is and I don't see them having any problem going with their RAI for their tournaments.>

I doubt we get a response though considering 7th edition is all but replaced. I will post if i hear something back from ITC.