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Obviously, this thread will be a razor's edge as far as forum rules go.. . My question really is, can anyone who is in, or closer to Russia explain this?? I mean, I am familiar with some of the religious group's beliefs (even some that are not advertised/discussed at all), but it still seems a bit extreme to blanket ban them and confiscate all church properties.
Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
In general Russia is not terribly friendly to protestant churches and their various spinoffs and descendents, often referring to them all collectively as "cults". That said, to be fair, a not insignificant number of people in the US and Europe would use that term for the JW church as well, rightly or wrongly, though the law offers them far greater protection in these places than in Russia as well.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
There has to be more than this? Somthibf that gives this context. Was it getting political in Russia?
Somthibf more deeper.
This ban seems a extreme answer to any problem.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
jhe90 wrote: There has to be more than this? Somthibf that gives this context. Was it getting political in Russia?
Somthibf more deeper.
This ban seems a extreme answer to any problem.
They're a highly insular and internally strict group that abstains from many commonly accepted activities (like birthdays or national holidays like the 4th of july in the US), doesnt tow state political lines, has a US origin and strong US ties and an outlook that armageddon is near, and that makes them a target basically by default even if they've done nothing wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/20 22:07:54
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
jhe90 wrote: There has to be more than this? Somthibf that gives this context. Was it getting political in Russia?
Somthibf more deeper.
This ban seems a extreme answer to any problem.
They're a highly insular and internally strict group that abstains from many commonly accepted activities (like birthdays or national holidays like the 4th of july in the US), doesnt tow state political lines, has a US origin and strong US ties and an outlook that armageddon is near, and that makes them a target basically by default even if they've done nothing wrong.
True. All fair points and more extreme groups I would class as a cult of sorts. Some refuse to be in same room as someone singing happy birthday or such. Things we might see as a tad trivial.
I think mostly with tension, US group. It's kinda a group they can get a free shot on.
(plus proastant has more influence than orthadox christians whom Russia is one of the key places for that section of religion. )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/20 22:24:00
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/04/20 23:50:00
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
Well lets be real, we've all wanted to do this, at least in our own neighborhood.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Vaktathi wrote:In general Russia is not terribly friendly to protestant churches and their various spinoffs and descendents, often referring to them all collectively as "cults". That said, to be fair, a not insignificant number of people in the US and Europe would use that term for the JW church as well, rightly or wrongly, though the law offers them far greater protection in these places than in Russia as well.
Yes, in general, Russian legislation is extremely unfriendly to any small, modern religion, regardless of their affiliation. Those groups are indeed usually referred to as cults. Established religions on the other hand (the so-called 'ancestral religions of the peoples of Russia') enjoy lots of legal benefits. Russia doesn't specifically target Protestantism though. It is just the small, modern offsprings of it (many of which originated in the US) that are persecuted. Protestantism is fine as long as it is of the traditional, non-evangelical kind (my family is Calvinist for example and has never faced any trouble). Evangelical protestants on the other hand are often really into proselytising, which has earned them much hate from most of the Russian people because this is seen as an infringement on and threat to Russian culture (which is inherently connected to Orthodox Christianity). Evangelical groups therefore often face both legal and popular harassment. It is even not uncommon for mobs or radical individuals to burn down evangelical churches or murder missionaries.
feeder wrote:Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
No, they have not been involved in anything political. The blood transfusions is enough reason in Russia. Russian anti-extremism and anti-cult laws are extremely strict. Any cult that has religious practice that endangers the health of its members will get banned. The Jehovah's love for proselytising probably also played a big role in the decision.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 12:19:35
I suspect it has more to do with the evangelical nature of JW than anything else. The Russian Orthodox church in Russia does not like anyone encroaching on their turf. It's not just protestant churches, but also the state refuses to recognize the Roman rite, and as far as I understand it tolerates the other Orthodox churches on the basis that they don't publicly argue with the Russian Orthodox churches claim that they are the sole authority for Orthodox Christianity in Russia. I guess they mostly get on with this because Orthodox presbyters (the equivalent of a priest) has a lot more leeway in interpretation and implementation than within other christian sects, more like a Muslim Imam. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
feeder wrote: Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
Their apolitical stance means they don't mess with politics which probably is just fine in Russia, but they also won't swear allegiance to any man which can irritate some Putin fans. And ofc they generally refuse military service since they take "Thou shalt not kill" quite literally.
Putin is firmly behind the Russian Orthodox Church (whose membership has skyrocketed during Putin's reign) and this has been escalating for two decades. The KGB ruthlessly targeted Witnesses. This is just the culmination of Russian security forces lining up to wrap it up. Keep in mind, it also means they get to seize all the Witnesses' property, too. It also sets them up to be prosecuted under Russia's equivalent of anti-terror laws.
jmurph wrote:Putin is firmly behind the Russian Orthodox Church (whose membership has skyrocketed during Putin's reign) and this has been escalating for two decades. The KGB ruthlessly targeted Witnesses. This is just the culmination of Russian security forces lining up to wrap it up. Keep in mind, it also means they get to seize all the Witnesses' property, too. It also sets them up to be prosecuted under Russia's equivalent of anti-terror laws.
Spetulhu wrote:
feeder wrote: Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
Their apolitical stance means they don't mess with politics which probably is just fine in Russia, but they also won't swear allegiance to any man which can irritate some Putin fans. And ofc they generally refuse military service since they take "Thou shalt not kill" quite literally.
True. Plus Russia is one of the defacto capitals of Orthodox, far as I know its Pope, or pope level figure resides there or maybe its jeruslam/Bethlehem.
Not sire which. But both key sites.
Compotation to that... Nope.
I can see why this might of came about.
They might see there not swearing as mixed loyalty?
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
jmurph wrote:Putin is firmly behind the Russian Orthodox Church (whose membership has skyrocketed during Putin's reign) and this has been escalating for two decades. The KGB ruthlessly targeted Witnesses. This is just the culmination of Russian security forces lining up to wrap it up. Keep in mind, it also means they get to seize all the Witnesses' property, too. It also sets them up to be prosecuted under Russia's equivalent of anti-terror laws.
Spetulhu wrote:
feeder wrote: Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
Their apolitical stance means they don't mess with politics which probably is just fine in Russia, but they also won't swear allegiance to any man which can irritate some Putin fans. And ofc they generally refuse military service since they take "Thou shalt not kill" quite literally.
True. Plus Russia is one of the defacto capitals of Orthodox, far as I know its Pope, or pope level figure resides there or maybe its jeruslam/Bethlehem. Not sire which. But both key sites.
Compotation to that... Nope.
I can see why this might of came about. They might see there not swearing as mixed loyalty?
Well... First of all the influence of the Orthodox Church is often greatly overstated in the West. Less than half of the Russian population self-identifies as Orthodox (and many of those are barely religious and never attend Church meetings and such) and a very large portion of the population is irreligious or even atheist. The influence of religion in Russia is far smaller than it is in the United States. For example, the US president's oath when taking office mentions God. If the Russian president's oath said something similar there'd be outrage. Most Russians see the Orthodox Church as part of their heritage, but they are not actually religious.
Secondly, the Orthodox Church is organised very differently than the Catholic Church. It does not have an equivalent to the pope and is far less hierarchical. It is nominally led by the Ecumenical Patriarch who resides in Constantinople (now called Istanbul and the most important site of Orthodoxy after Jerusalem). It is then divided into separate local branches (called patriarchies) that are usually based on an ethnic group or geographical area and are each ruled by their own patriarch. Examples of patriarchies are the Russian Orthodox Church, Romanian Orthodox Church or Greek Orthodox Church. These patriarchies are autocephalous (meaning independent). The Ecumenical Patriarch does not have any authority over them, only over his own diocese. This autocephaly extends further down the line as well. The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church (Kirill I, whose full title is Patriarch of Russia and all Rus') has no actual authority over the Russian Orthodox Church, only over his own diocese of Moscow. The other dioceses each have their own metropolitan or episcop (archbishop or bishop specifically) who has full authority only of his own diocese. A patriarch in the Orthodox Church therefore is not an absolute ruler like the pope, but rather a first among equals. Decisions are made by a council of patriarchs (for matters that affect the Orthodox Church as a whole) that is chaired by the Ecumenical Patriarch, or by a council of metropolitans chaired by their patriarch (for things that affect only their own patriarchy). Russia, or the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church therefore does not hold special significance in the Orthodox Church. The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of all Orthodox patriarchates, so that gives it quite a bit of influence in meetings, but that is all. Further back in history, the Russian tsars did try to promote Moscow as the 'Third Rome' and new capital of Orthodoxy, but that never really caught on. Constantinople remains the capital of Orthodoxy, even though it is now in Islamic hands.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 11:26:34
As a former Jehovah's Witness I'm conflicted about this. I think it's a very strict, controlling and damaging religion to be a part of with some terribly backward views. On the other hand freedom and all that. I hope all involved are treated with dignity and respect which sadly I doubt they will be.
As far as banning religions goes, banning foreign religions who actively try to convert large portions of your population might not be the worst idea ever as a country. For it is quite destabilizing when a large portion the population suddenly changes their believes system. The other things to notice is that almost all modern evangelical religions both of the christian and on the Islamic side are quite extreme / unforgiving in their teachings and often come with a prepackaged distrust for science and other religions.
Banning religions is a horrible idea, but Europe would sure have less issues if salafism and their equivalents would have been kept out of our mosques and large portions of Africa and Asia would have less soa issues if our christian evangelists would not have preached against condom usage.
I am not sure why Putin and co banned them, but I would certainly classify them as an unwanted subversive element if I had to keep Russia together.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2017/04/22 15:46:56
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
I find this decision to be slightly bizarre. It wasn't too long ago that the Mormon church was given permission to proselytize and construct churches in Russia. That's not to say the two churches are the same, but both do proselytize extensively. Perhaps the Mormons were just more careful and made better friends with Russia. I'm a little biased, but hopefully the Mormon church is not next on the list.
Anyone from Russia have some insight into how Mormons are viewed in Russia, compared to Jehovah's Witnesses?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 15:50:48
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
jmurph wrote:Putin is firmly behind the Russian Orthodox Church (whose membership has skyrocketed during Putin's reign) and this has been escalating for two decades. The KGB ruthlessly targeted Witnesses. This is just the culmination of Russian security forces lining up to wrap it up. Keep in mind, it also means they get to seize all the Witnesses' property, too. It also sets them up to be prosecuted under Russia's equivalent of anti-terror laws.
Spetulhu wrote:
feeder wrote: Refusing blood is a flimsy excuse. Have they been speaking out against Putin? JWs are apolitical as a rule (like a rule in their church)
Their apolitical stance means they don't mess with politics which probably is just fine in Russia, but they also won't swear allegiance to any man which can irritate some Putin fans. And ofc they generally refuse military service since they take "Thou shalt not kill" quite literally.
True. Plus Russia is one of the defacto capitals of Orthodox, far as I know its Pope, or pope level figure resides there or maybe its jeruslam/Bethlehem.
Not sire which. But both key sites.
Compotation to that... Nope.
I can see why this might of came about.
They might see there not swearing as mixed loyalty?
Well...
First of all the influence of the Orthodox Church is often greatly overstated in the West. Less than half of the Russian population self-identifies as Orthodox (and many of those are barely religious and never attend Church meetings and such) and a very large portion of the population is irreligious or even atheist. The influence of religion in Russia is far smaller than it is in the United States. For example, the US president's oath when taking office mentions God. If the Russian president's oath said something similar there'd be outrage. Most Russians see the Orthodox Church as part of their heritage, but they are not actually religious.
Secondly, the Orthodox Church is organised very differently than the Catholic Church. It does not have an equivalent to the pope and is far less hierarchical. It is nominally led by the Ecumenical Patriarch who resides in Constantinople (now called Istanbul and the most important site of Orthodoxy after Jerusalem). It is then divided into separate local branches (called patriarchies) that are usually based on an ethnic group or geographical area and are each ruled by their own patriarch. Examples of patriarchies are the Russian Orthodox Church, Romanian Orthodox Church or Greek Orthodox Church. These patriarchies are autocephalous (meaning independent). The Ecumenical Patriarch does not have any authority over them, only over his own diocese. This autocephaly extends further down the line as well. The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church (Kirill I, whose full title is Patriarch of Russia and all Rus') has no actual authority over the Russian Orthodox Church, only over his own diocese of Moscow. The other dioceses each have their own metropolitan or episcop (archbishop or bishop specifically) who has full authority only of his own diocese. A patriarch in the Orthodox Church therefore is not an absolute ruler like the pope, but rather a first among equals. Decisions are made by a council of patriarchs (for matters that affect the Orthodox Church as a whole) that is chaired by the Ecumenical Patriarch, or by a council of metropolitans chaired by their patriarch (for things that affect only their own patriarchy).
Russia, or the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church therefore does not hold special significance in the Orthodox Church. The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of all Orthodox patriarchates, so that gives it quite a bit of influence in meetings, but that is all. Further back in history, the Russian tsars did try to promote Moscow as the 'Third Rome' and new capital of Orthodoxy, but that never really caught on. Constantinople remains the capital of Orthodoxy, even though it is now in Islamic hands.
Well Czar was Russian for Caesar and in those days the Emperor in Constantinople was the head of both of our faiths, When the Turk took the city, the emperor was killed and our two sides separated pretty much for good. The eastern Christians had to look to Russia for protection, the seat of the eastern church was pretty much safe in Moscow. I dont know how true or not this part is, but I had heard that aside from just protecting eastern Christendom, the goal of many Russo-Turkish wars was the liberation of the Hagia Sophia.
2017/04/22 17:41:22
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
This might give the discussion some context, apparently this wasn't an isolated incident it appear to be at least an 10 year process of condemning them for their extremism ( note its wikipedia and I haven't checkt it at all )
Spoiler:
wikipedia22april2017 wrote:Russian anti-extremism laws were extended to non-violent groups in 2007 and Jehovah’s Witnesses have been officially banned from the port city of Taganrog since 2009, after a local court ruled the organisation guilty of inciting religious hatred by "propagating the exclusivity and supremacy" of their religion.[68]
On December 8, 2009 the Supreme Court of Russia upheld the ruling of the lower courts which pronounced 34 pieces of Jehovah's Witness literature extremist, including their magazine The Watchtower, in the Russian language. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that this ruling affirms a misapplication of a federal law on anti-extremism. The ruling upheld the confiscation of property of Jehovah's Witnesses in Taganrog, and may set a precedent for similar cases in other areas of Russia, as well as placing literature of Jehovah's Witnesses on a list of literature unacceptable throughout Russia. The chairman of the presiding committee of the Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, Vasily Kalin, said: "I am very concerned that this decision will open a new era of opposition against Jehovah's Witnesses, whose right to meet in peace, to access religious literature and to share the Christian hope contained in the Gospels, is more and more limited."[69][70][71] On December 1, 2015 a Rostov Regional Court convicted 16 Jehovah's Witnesses of practising extremism in Taganrog, with five given 5 1⁄2-year suspended sentences and the remainder issued fines they were not required to pay.[68]
On May 5, 2015, customs authorities in Russia seized a shipment of religious literature containing Ossetian-language Bibles published by Jehovah's Witnesses. Russian customs officials in the city of Vyborg held up a shipment of 2,013 Russian-language copies of Bibles on July 13, 2015. Customs authorities confiscated three of the Bibles, sent them to an "expert" to study the Bibles to determine whether they contained "extremist" language, and impounded the rest of the shipment.[72]
On July 21, 2015, the Russian Federation Ministry of Justice added Jehovah's Witnesses' official website to the Federal List of Extremist Materials thereby making it a criminal offense to promote the website from within the country and requiring internet providers throughout Russia to block access to the site.[73][74]
On March 23, 2017, the Russian News Agency TASS reported, "Russia's Justice Ministry has suspended the activities of the religious organization calling itself Administrative Center of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia due to its extremist activities."[75] The Supreme Court of Russia is scheduled on April 5 to hear a request by the Russian Justice Ministry to declare Jehovah's Witnesses an extremist organization. If adopted, the ruling would ban the organization's activity across Russia and result in seizure of their property.[76] In April 2017, the group was banned, with their property in the country to be confiscated.[77]
Not exactly. . . I was reading an article (maybe it was wikipedia?) where they talked about how Stalin went after the JWs in Russia during his day, sending them clear across Siberia to the far eastern part of the country.
2017/04/23 09:52:06
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
Not exactly. . . I was reading an article (maybe it was wikipedia?) where they talked about how Stalin went after the JWs in Russia during his day, sending them clear across Siberia to the far eastern part of the country.
Siberia... That was default for anyone who was not Communist and loyal Stalinites.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Not exactly. . . I was reading an article (maybe it was wikipedia?) where they talked about how Stalin went after the JWs in Russia during his day, sending them clear across Siberia to the far eastern part of the country.
Siberia... That was default for anyone who was not Communist and loyal Stalinites.
As well as for many people who were loyal communists and stalinists.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/04/23 13:50:12
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
BlaxicanX wrote: I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness family, and though I no longer associate myself as one most of my family still does.
AMA
Who is Jehovah and should the JW be put under some kind of witness protection program to protect them from retribution from this Jehovah?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/23 13:50:26
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2017/04/24 00:12:48
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
While Hitler began his anti-semitic rhetoric before expanding to target any other group, when it came to actual round ups and executions the first to die were the Pentecostals and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Hitler steered the majority of Germans into the Reich approved churches during a policy known as Kirchenkampf.
The Jehovah's Witnesses and then the Pentecostals were the first two denominations of any religion to be set aside for special camps, with the massacres of Pentecostals, some 250,000 in total were murdered, normally by guillotine between August 1939 and September 1940. The massacre of the Pentecostals was well underway before any serious attempt was made to round up Jews en masse, and nearly two years before the Final Solution was instigated at the Waldsee Conference in December 1941. While the elimination of Jews was always the primary focus for religious policy of the Nazi, Jehovah's Witneses were targeted first, and the systematic elimination of thee groups began before the outbreak of World War 2.
I find it chilling the Putin is also specifically targeting the Jehovah's Witnesses. While the JW's use recruiting techniques normally only found in cults, and the Evangelical Alliance regards them as a cult for fairly solid theological reasons, there is still no doubt that this particular religious group are known for being morally outspoken, with high moral standards and are accepted by the churches because of such.. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to be sort of people who when seeing persecution of a faction, even one to which they do not belong, or even are opposed to, will stand up and be counted ansd not count the personal cost in doing so. The German Pentecostal movement also had that reputation. It is unsurprising that the Nazi's chose to eliminate them first, and in the case of the Pentecostals to complete a program of eradication before even starting with other groups. It pays to look at Putin's motives for highlighting this particular group from exclusion from the new Russia, it is a very very bad sign for the future.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostal's were both strongly law abiding religious groups, and not an actual threat to society in any way. But then that depends on how you determine threat. Russia will not be the poorer as a society for having the Jehovah's Witnesses there, but they maty well speak out about persecution. The current Jehovah's Witnesses returned to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union, and obviously they could not survive in the Soviet era state for the same reasons they could not survive Naziism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 00:15:31
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/04/24 00:59:14
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
They are in no way dangerous, but they are very outspoken on moral issues, and this might make them 'dangerous' to Putin if he slides further into persecution of unwanted minorities.
I can see why the current regime doesn't want them there.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz wrote in his book 'Death Dealer' that he found the Jehovah's Witnesses the most troubling of all the collected inmates because they genuinely considered their plight an opportunity to glorify God. He was utterly confused by their high spirits and eagerness to work in such a horrible environment, even dancing, singing and sometimes running to the gas chambers when it was their turn. He accused so many others of being mere animals (gee Rudolf, because you treated them that way and worse?) but the JW attitude confounded him completely.
Maybe it's that same disregard for persecution the Russians also sense in a people that cannot be controlled by any typical means that unsettles the Russians as well.
2017/04/24 16:20:10
Subject: Re:Jehovah's Witnesses kicked out of Russia
While Hitler began his anti-semitic rhetoric before expanding to target any other group, when it came to actual round ups and executions the first to die were the Pentecostals and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Hitler steered the majority of Germans into the Reich approved churches during a policy known as Kirchenkampf.
The Jehovah's Witnesses and then the Pentecostals were the first two denominations of any religion to be set aside for special camps, with the massacres of Pentecostals, some 250,000 in total were murdered, normally by guillotine between August 1939 and September 1940. The massacre of the Pentecostals was well underway before any serious attempt was made to round up Jews en masse, and nearly two years before the Final Solution was instigated at the Waldsee Conference in December 1941. While the elimination of Jews was always the primary focus for religious policy of the Nazi, Jehovah's Witneses were targeted first, and the systematic elimination of thee groups began before the outbreak of World War 2.
I find it chilling the Putin is also specifically targeting the Jehovah's Witnesses. While the JW's use recruiting techniques normally only found in cults, and the Evangelical Alliance regards them as a cult for fairly solid theological reasons, there is still no doubt that this particular religious group are known for being morally outspoken, with high moral standards and are accepted by the churches because of such.. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to be sort of people who when seeing persecution of a faction, even one to which they do not belong, or even are opposed to, will stand up and be counted ansd not count the personal cost in doing so. The German Pentecostal movement also had that reputation. It is unsurprising that the Nazi's chose to eliminate them first, and in the case of the Pentecostals to complete a program of eradication before even starting with other groups. It pays to look at Putin's motives for highlighting this particular group from exclusion from the new Russia, it is a very very bad sign for the future.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostal's were both strongly law abiding religious groups, and not an actual threat to society in any way. But then that depends on how you determine threat. Russia will not be the poorer as a society for having the Jehovah's Witnesses there, but they maty well speak out about persecution. The current Jehovah's Witnesses returned to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union, and obviously they could not survive in the Soviet era state for the same reasons they could not survive Naziism.
Putin? What the hell does Putin have to do with this? He is the president, not a judge. Do you think Putin is some kind of omnipotent god-man who controls and is responsible for every single thing that happens in Russia? Surprise: The vast majority of things in Russia happen without Putin being involved. Here, it is not Putin who is targeting Jehovah's Witnesses, it is judge Ivanenko who is doing so according to the laws and constitution of the Russian Federation after the Jehovah's Witnesses actions were found to be in violation. No scary mean Putin involved at all.
I don't know how it is in the US, but in Russia it is not the president who makes legal decisions. Also, I don't know how it works in the US, but groups that consistently violate laws get banned in Russia. Especially if they don't change their ways after receiving warnings. Then again, the US is infamous for having huge loads of harmful crazy nutjobs and out of control cults (anyone remember Jonestown?) which inspired this particular Russian law in the first place. So it probably does work differently in the US. But regardless of how Americans may feel about it, we Russians don't wish any kind of that bs in our country. Jehovah's Witnesses may not be into poisoning kids with Kool-Aid, but they are still crazy. Some of the beliefs they enforce on their members endanger the health of said members and their proselytising makes them an active danger to people who may not have the mental strength to resist them. There are clear reasons why so many countries have banned them, and none of them have to do with the supposedly high moral standards of the Jehovah's Witnesses (a statement which I, on both theological and ethical grounds would strongly disagree with btw).
This comparison of yours does not make any sense, and I have a strong suspicion you are only making stuff like this up to either slander Putin or Russia because of some personal bias of yours or because you have a genuinely ill-informed view of Russia and its governmental and legal systems. So please take your Godwin out of this thread, educate yourself and refrain from making such outrageous statements in the future unless they actually make sense (hint: A Godwin virtually never makes sense, therefore the adage that the first person to bring one up loses the discussion).
Lastly, the Jehovah's Witnesses are far from the only group to have been targeted under this law, so there is hardly anything 'specific' about it. Neither were they targeted specifically in Soviet times (all religious groups were persecuted back then, the Orthodox Church most of all)
Also, it is the Wannsee Conference, not Waldsee.
