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Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Per recent discussions and in order to avoid spillover that seems likely to occur...

I have opened this to discuss the following.

Which rules are basic rules.

Which rules are advanced rules.

Which rules are special rules.

I would assert the following...

1. All basic rules are contained within the BRB.
a. The core rules section tells us how all of the basic rules function in action.
b. That all rules, not located in the Special Rules, section of the BRB, are basic rules.
c. The splash page for the Core Rules section tells us that it contains ALL basic rules.

2. All Special Rules or USR's are located in the Special rules section of the BRB.
a. The first page of the special rules section notates it presents ALL special rules.
b. This does state that the list is not exhaustive and that other special rules can be found in other documents, codex, datasheets.
c. I would assert that all special rules located within the BRB are indeed located in that section.
d. Datasheet point 10. Will state that all special rules located in a Codex will be found on the Army List Entry or Appendix for the codex, or located in the special rules section of the BRB.
d2. The above correlates what the BRB already states.

3. All advanced rules are contained within codex's.
a. If you check the physical BRB for advanced rules it only provides you page 13. which is the Basic Vs Advanced box.
b. Basic vs advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex."
c. Basic vs advanced also tells us "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
d. The only rules that pertain to SPECIFIC models are located in Codex's. Such as giving a model in a unit a relic, or giving a sargeant melta bombs, or a plasma pistol.


If you feel that any of these are incorrect, or that I have missed something that contradicts these assertions, feel free to point them out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/20 23:28:15


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann,

Your schema is flawed. 1b is wholly incorrect, 2 contradicts itself, and all of 3 is wrong.


Let's start over based on what the rules actually say.


1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.



2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section.

Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).


The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules. The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB (except for the Core Rules section which is for basic rules) and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 00:28:16


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




I have some contentions with where you find advanced rules.

1. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
The unit types section only tells us rules for movement, shooting, assault and morale.

Can you tell us what rules are located in that section that are not basic rules?

2. If the advanced rules are calling out how they apply to specific models, and the unit types section is about unit types, not models, this seems to contradict itself.

Can you tell us what specific models are discussed in the unit types section?

3. The Basic Vs Advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

If the Army List Entry is supposed to tell us what advanced rules a unit has, how can the unit types section tell us what advanced rules a unit type has?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 00:32:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
I have some contentions with where you find advanced rules.

1. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
The unit types section only tells us rules for movement, shooting, assault and morale.

Can you tell us what rules are located in that section that are not basic rules?


None of the rules that are in the Unit Type section are basic rules. All of the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules since the section is concerned with rules for specific models which are not the basic infantry model.

All of the basic rules can be found in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




Ceann wrote:
2. If the advanced rules are calling out how they apply to specific models, and the unit types section is about unit types, not models.

Can you tell us what specific models are discussed in the unit types section?


You are confused. Advanced rules apply to units and/or models.

"[The Unit Type] section explores all the different unit types that describe your models."

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."

So the models that are described in the Unit Type section are bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.

Ceann wrote:
3. The Basic Vs Advanced tells us "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

If the Army List Entry is supposed to tell us what advanced rules a unit has, how can the unit types section tell us what advanced rules a unit type has?


An Army List Entry tells us what advanced rules a unit has and those advanced rules can be anywhere in the BRB (except for the Core Rules section) or any 40k publication.

The Unit Type section itself has nothing but advanced rules in it. The basic infantry rules are mentioned but the Unit Type section specifically says "there are no additional rules to present here".

An Army List Entry will list a unit type such as "jet pack infantry" so the Army List Entry is indicating that the jet pack unit type rules are advanced rules applying to that model. The advanced rules for Jet Pack models can be found in the Unit Type section.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:01:22


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Col,

We have two statements. From the same section of rules.

1.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).

I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?

2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.


I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?

I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:03:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
Col,

We have two statements. From the same section of rules.

1.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).

I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?


"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."

The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).


Ceann wrote:
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.


I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?



That quote does not tell you where to find advanced rules. It does tell you where to find Army List Entries. An Army List Entry will indicate what advanced rules apply but the Army List Entry itself will not necessarily contain those rules.

An Army List Entry tells us what advanced rules a unit has and those advanced rules can be anywhere in the BRB (except for the Core Rules section) or any 40k publication.

The Unit Type section itself has nothing but advanced rules in it. The basic infantry rules are mentioned but the Unit Type section specifically says "there are no additional rules to present here" for the basic infantry type.

An Army List Entry will list a unit type such as "jet pack infantry" so the Army List Entry is indicating that the jet pack unit type rules are advanced rules applying to that model. The advanced rules for Jet Pack models can be found in the Unit Type section.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:16:40


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise

Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic

Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




U02dah4 wrote:
Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise

Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic

Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades


This is incorrect sir.

"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"

I would like to present you two points to consider.

1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.

Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry

Jump units have the folowing special rules

An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase

Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back
Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:28:30


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise

Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic

Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades


This is incorrect sir.

"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"

I would like to present you two points to consider.

1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.

Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?



If we are talking catch-all terms here.

Basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Advanced rules are any rule that adds on top of the basic rules to describe a specific model beyond the basic rules in the Core Rules section. You can find those advanced rules in any section outside of the Core Rules section of the BRB and any codex or 40k publication.

Special rules are in the Special Rules section of the BRB. All special rules are advanced rules. Not all advanced rules are special rules.


Advanced rules (whether special Rule, codex rule, or advanced rule in the BRB) have the ability to override any basic rules.

Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry

Jump units have the folowing special rules

An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase

Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back

Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules


I marked in orange what is, technically speaking, actually 'advanced rules'

I marked in red what is actually specifically special rules. Remember special rules are also advanced rules.

In game terms, the distinction doesn't really matter since all advanced rules (whether special rules or not) have the ability to override basic rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:36:22


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Col,

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."

The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).

1. The data sheet states this for the unit section in the codex. """This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc."""

Basic vs advanced tells us "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
The codex is telling us that the unit types section contain the rules for movement, shooting, assaults, which are basic rules per basic vs advanced.

2. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.

This is the part I really need help with them.

I pull up my Necron Night Scythe and it said it was a flyer, I searched the entire codex but I couldn't find the rules for flying. It tells me to check the BRB. Now I couldn't remember where in the BRB to find them, so I checked the index.

The index told me to go to page 13 of the BRB to find advanced rules, when I got to page 13 of the BRB it told me to check the codex for advanced rules.

Can you tell me how to locate advanced rules? I am following exactly what the books tell me to do and I can't find them.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
Example jump units section is advanced rules they do not apply to all models as not all models are jump infantry

Jump units have the folowing special rules

An unnamed special rule telling you the jump packs may be used in either the movement or assault phase

Sky borne- how it moves over other models
Movement phase- what happens if you jump it in the movement phase
Assault phase- what happens if you use it in the assault phase
Fall back moves - how they fall back
Special rules - the rules which feature multiple times in the BRB and codexs and have been keyworded to save space and are explained in the special rule section of the codex sometimes referred to as nested rules or universal special rules


Can you provide page numbers that tell us this?
I did not create any of the words I told you, they are directly from the rulebooks.

1. Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.


Those two statements are what the rulebooks say, can you tell me what why you are saying is more clear than that?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:46:24


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise

Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic

Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades


This is incorrect sir.

"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"

I would like to present you two points to consider.

1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.

Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?



Well 1 furious charge is listed in the section your quoting 2 if you read that whole secton not the one line it's referring to the universal special rules and shortens what it's saying half way through to just special rules 3 the unusual grenade rule modifies a main game rule therefore is special

4 go back to the beginning of the BRB have a look in the contents section (what's in this book)

Unit types listed as containing special rules
Preparing for battle special rules again
Appendix a compendium of special rules "frequently used throughout the book" ie they have keyworded it rather than write the same rule again and again

5 refer to the rad grenades discussion where for 18 pages multiple people well versed in the rules explain to someone who doesn't understand why unusual grenades are a special rule and he just trolls them it's very funny


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's called the jump unit section it's not small I can't imagine you'll have difficulty locating it

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:43:19


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




U02dah4 wrote:
Ceann wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Basic are the rules which apply to all models unless another advanced rule says otherwise

Advanced rules any rule that does not apply to all models these override basic

Special rule a catch all term used 444 times in the Base rulebook alone. These are any rule that alters one of the main game rules and are therefore all advanced rules. these make up the majority of the Base rulebook and codexs and covers everything from unit types to mission rules to keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades


This is incorrect sir.

"keyworded special abilities such as 'furious charge' to unusual grenades"

I would like to present you two points to consider.

1. This is on the Datasheet guide of any Codex.

Per section 9. of the Datasheet - Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

2. Per Special Rules section of the BRB - We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

If the Codex tells you all special rules are located in the Codex or the Appendix or the Special rules section of the BRB, and the BRB tells you all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB.
How can 'furious charge' to unusual grenades" be special rules as you claim?



Well 1 furious charge is listed in the section your quoting 2 if you read that whole secton not the one line it's referring to the universal special rules and shortens what it's saying half way through to just special rules 3 the unusual grenade rule modifies a main game rule therefore is special

4 go back to the beginning of the BRB have a look in the contents section (what's in this book)

Unit types listed as containing special rules
Preparing for battle special rules again
Appendix a compendium of special rules "frequently used throughout the book" ie they have keyworded it rather than write the same rule again and again

5 refer to the rad grenades discussion where for 18 pages multiple people well versed in the rules explain to someone who doesn't understand why unusual grenades are a special rule and he just trolls them it's very funny


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's called the jump unit section it's not small I can't imagine you'll have difficulty locating it


Well you haven't quoted any page numbers.

Unusual Grenades is not located in the special rules section. Why is it a special rule? Did they put it in the wrong place in the book?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Because it's not a universal special rule as it only features once.

Also if sky borne is not a special rule then it applies to all units so I can jump land raiders non jump infantry and even imperial knights awesome

Also I'm not giving you the page number because you spent 18 pages arguing incorrectly about it on the rad grenade thread where you were given the page number so any pretence at not knowing it is trolling

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 01:51:52


 
   
Made in lu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.

The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Roknar wrote:
It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.

The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.


Yea?

What about this?

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
Col,

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank)."

The advanced rules for "not normal infantry models" are located in the Unit Type section (e.g. bikes, jetbikes, artillery, jump models, jet pack models, monstrous creatures, beasts, tanks, chariots, characters, etc.).

1. The data sheet stats this for the unit section in the codex.

This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.

Basic vs advanced tells us "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."

The codex is telling us that the unit types section contain the rules for movement, shooting, assaults, which are basic rules per basic vs advanced.


You are confused here. Not all the rules that can apply to a specific model's movement, shooting, assault, morale, etc.are basic rules. The basic rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale are located only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.


Any rules that apply to a specific model's movement, shooting, assault, morale that are not in the Core Rules section and depart from those basic rules in the Core Rules section are advanced rules by definition.

So all the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules by definition since that section contains all the rules for unit types except for the basic infantry type. Only the basic infantry type is a basic rule.



Ceann wrote:
2. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.

This is the part I really need help with them.

I pull up my Necron Night Scythe and it said it was a flyer, I searched the entire codex but I couldn't find the rules for flying. It tells me to check the BRB. Now I couldn't remember where in the BRB to find them, so I checked the index.

The index told me to go to page 13 of the BRB, when I got to page 13 of the BRB it told me to check the codex for advanced rules.

Can you tell me how to locate advanced rules? I am following exactly what the books tell me to do and I can't find them.


The Army List Entry rule allows you to look anywhere for an advanced rule, so anywhere in the BRB and anywhere in any 40k publication.

The unit type for flyer is not the unit type for basic infantry so you know not to look in the Core Rules section since that section contains only basic rules.

The Unit Type section contains advanced rules for anything not basic infantry so you know to go there. In the Unit Type section there is a 'flyer' unit type. Easy.

Or alternatively you can simply check the index for 'flyer'. It tells you to go to page 84.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
 Roknar wrote:
It's quite simple really.
The breakout box "Basic vs Advanced" on page 13 tells you what basic and advanced rules are.

The first sentence straight up tells you " Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise."
Everything else is an advanced rule. Page references and sections don't really enter the equation.


Yea?

What about this?

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.


Cool. You just pointed out where Army List Entries are located. An Army List Entry merely indicates the advanced rules that a unit has. An Army List Entry does not necessarily contain the advanced rules.

The advanced rules that the Army List Entry refers to can be found anywhere in the BRB or any 40k publication.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:03:20


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




1. Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles

So everything that is in here is a core rule?
Is that correct?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:
1. Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles

So everything that is in here is a core rule?
Is that correct?


(I am going to interpret that by 'core rule' you mean 'basic rule')

Not necessarly. The logic of this statement . . .

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles


. . . is only indicating that ALL of the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. It is not saying that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.

The Core Rules section could contain an advanced rule or two - probably in the psychic phase rules. We just know that ALL of the basic rules in the BRB are in the Core Rules section.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:11:18


 
   
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Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.

Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.

Do you disagree with this?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:12:18


 
   
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Ceann wrote:
Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.

Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.

Do you disagree with this?


That is not what the statement is logically saying.

The Core Rules section has ALL the basic rules. That is what we know. But the statement is NOT saying that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.
   
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So we get to decide which rules in the core rules section are basic rules or not?

If the entire section does not encompass strictly basic rules, how are we supposed to sort them?
   
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Ceann wrote:
Well a rule cannot be a basic rule AND an advanced rule.

Since ALL basic rules are located in the core rule section, therefore ALL basic rules are in the core rule section, since it says ALL we have to assume that every single rule in the core section is a basic rule.

Do you disagree with this?



That's something you bring up often it seems.

Consider X is the set of all basic rules in the core rules and O the set of all stuff that isn't a basic rule. And let [ ] be the entirety of the core rules section.
Now consider these examples.: A) [X], B) [XO]

The statement " Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles",
is true for Both A and , despite B also having other stuff in the core rules and thus not everything in the core rules section being a basic rule.
   
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Ceann wrote:
Col,

We have two statements. From the same section of rules.

1.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).

I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?

2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.


I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?

I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.


So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;

Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?

Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK

As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.

Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.



   
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If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.

I understand your X and O example.

However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.
The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.

The only way to determine that the quantity of X is accurate is by all rules in the section being X.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brother Ramses wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Col,

We have two statements. From the same section of rules.

1.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,a swarm or even a tank).

I don't see any mention of the Unit Types section here. I also do not see where it tells you to find advanced rules. Can you highlight in red for me where it tells you to look at the Unit Types section?

2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.


I don't see any reference to the unit types section here either. But it looks like it does tell me where to find advanced rules.
Can you explain to me how you are following RAW for the #1 and RAW for #2?

I just really want to make sure I know how to find these rules correctly.


So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;

Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?

Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK

As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.

Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.




A boltgun, and "unusual skills" are also not unit types.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:28:06


 
   
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Ceann wrote:
So we get to decide which rules in the core rules section are basic rules or not?

If the entire section does not encompass strictly basic rules, how are we supposed to sort them?


The topic of the Core Rules section is basic rules.

So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.

So we can assume the discussion of rules in the Core Rules section centers around basic rules as the driving topic. This means that it will be the norm that basic rules show up, and that it will be the exceptional case where an advanced rule shows up in the Core Rules section, if any do at all.

This is what the rules are telling us.
   
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The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.

Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.

The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:30:43


 
   
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Ceann wrote:
If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.

I understand your X and O example.

However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.

The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.


Yes you are, it's in the break out box on page 13.
   
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 Roknar wrote:
Ceann wrote:
If a rule is an advanced rule, advanced rules supersede basic rules. An advanced rule can never be a basic rule.

I understand your X and O example.

However we are not told while reading the book, how to separate X from O in order to determine the quantity of X is accurate and quantity of O is accurate.

The criteria that Col is using to determine what is and is not an advanced rule is not specific enough for you to be able to do this.


Yes you are, it's in the break out box on page 13.


1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank).


2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.

Explain this to me Roknar.

How is 1, more accurate than 2?

How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?

I am having a bit of trouble understanding how we are making this leap.


Which of these is a specific model?

Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marines models

Unit 2
3 Jetbike models

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:35:48


 
   
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 Brother Ramses wrote:


So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;

Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?

Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK

As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.

Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.



I am not assuming anything. Where you find the rules for "not normal infantry models" is in the Unit Types section.

Spoiler:
Unit Types

So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.

To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
   
 
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