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So, I have been playing through Space Hulk and SH:Ascension. And all the Terminator armor seems to do, is make the Marines slower. Since a genestealer can one shot (For lack of better description in the games) a terminator, wouldn't it be far more efficient to deploy a tactical squad or Sternguard/Vanguard in regular power armor? Higher mobility and speed. I imagine the genestealers wont take any longer to kill them.

Another thing! Now, dare I suggest that in the galaxy of magic and aliens and all that, where the gak are the termies storing additional ammo? I know for TT that SM squads have bits for mag pouches/Grenades etc. hough nothing for termies? I had a mission in space hulk with 150 dead genestealers, now extrapolate that to a "real" scenario, and thats hundreds or thousands of genestealers killed. And you mean to tell me that these termies didnt have half a chapters worth of ammo serfs following them around?

Just me poking holes in a universe already full of holes and retcon.

Now I haven't played these games, but I think fluffwise, Terminator armour would offer substantially more protection than regular power armour. There must be a reason why it is specifically used for boarding missions and Space Hulk clearing. In cramped corridors with sealed bulkheads around every corner, mobility might not be as useful. Where are you gonna run to?
Sure, in game terms, it does'nt make a lot of sense, because a scout could probably traverse the same distance in half the time it takes a terminator-armoured marine, but I believe in an actual fight, a terminator would be able to shrug off hundreds of genestealer attacks easily, which might save his life if he is cornered.
I believe it may just be a game mechanic to keep you moving and make the game more exciting and fast-paced. Terminators were just chosen because that's whats been the status quo for all these years and they look cool and sell well

The ammo thing is really weird, I always wondered how many rounds a stormbolter clip holds, because on rapid-fire, you're gonna be left with an empty gun in no time at all with that fire rate... Maybe they can 'teleport in' more ammo? I agree, they probably should have ammo pouches somewhere on them. Though I don't think they use grenades, do they?

Terminator armour derives from suits for high radiation/extreme envioment gear.

It might provide you vital protection from whatever nasty radiation, chemeicals, waste, toxic materals you could easily encounter on a mass of ruined space ships.

Power armour would not provide that degree to extra defense.

Termies make safe, secure worst areas and isolate and shut off worst contaminates opening way for power armoured to follow.

..

(also power armour no chainfists which are excellent space hulk and urban warfare breaching gear. )
Default power fists, still can spash aside bulk heads easily.

Terminators are used in Space Hulks because of the oft ridiculous radiation present in them from dozens of old ship reactors pumping on overdrive, or lacking any kind of shielding meaning the solar radiation will cook you alive. Terminators are virtually immune to these effects courtesy of the armor being originally designed to work on these kinds of reactors. Power armored marines are in fact deployed on Space Hulks when conditions permit.

I'll agree with the game mechanic element of space hulk making tactical termie armor seem useless. That being said, the ability to carry more ammo, heavier weapons (heavy flamers and assault cannons now), and survive longer in more dangerous environs makes them ideal.

I am re-reading Death of Integrity, and there they talk about ammo belts and storage in the back of the termie suits. It didn't say how much ammo a storm bolter holds, but another termie needed to retrieve additional ammo from the back of his squad mates armor.

 Cruentus wrote:

I am re-reading Death of Integrity, and there they talk about ammo belts and storage in the back of the termie suits. It didn't say how much ammo a storm bolter holds, but another termie needed to retrieve additional ammo from the back of his squad mates armor.

This is common in real world scenarios. E.g. a medic would have lots of shotgun shells on his back, because the fellow behind him in line would be a shot gunner.

Then the weapons platform aspect is very important because ofc a scout running at top speed or even walking cannot have a weapon perfectly ready and may run into an ambush unprepared, and a power armored marine still varies his heavy weapon across his chest with both hands. TDA allows a marine to move at the top speed of a marine ready to fire.

There were White Dwarf rules for power armour for the original Space Hulk. It was marginally more agile (they didn't pay for turning, like genestealers) and had some extra weapon options (missile launcher, may have had the other 'heavies' too but can't recall now) but at a generally big loss in power; they only had one shooting dice (on the bright side it meant they couldn't jam), and had a penalty (-1 or -2) in melee combat.

To be fair, I think that part of the reason terminators feel 'weak' to 'stealers in Space Hulk (apart from game theme, of course) is that they're meant to be fighting in vacuum, or at least a very hostile environment. Genestealer claws can rupture the suit and 'kill' the marine this way even if they don't actually cause a fatal injury per se.

To stay 'in universe', a hulk is actually terminator armour's 'happy hunting ground', in many ways. It's a close-quarter-action bunker/ship assault suit. Limited arcs of fire, low chances of outflanking, generally 'single combat' even in shooting, save for cargo bays and the like... if they were facing regular humans or many other alien races, it wouldn't seem so bad. But genestealers don't follow the same rulebook....

"They're coming out of the emperor-damned walls!"

Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:

I am re-reading Death of Integrity, and there they talk about ammo belts and storage in the back of the termie suits. It didn't say how much ammo a storm bolter holds, but another termie needed to retrieve additional ammo from the back of his squad mates armor.

This is common in real world scenarios. E.g. a medic would have lots of shotgun shells on his back, because the fellow behind him in line would be a shot gunner.

Then the weapons platform aspect is very important because ofc a scout running at top speed or even walking cannot have a weapon perfectly ready and may run into an ambush unprepared, and a power armored marine still varies his heavy weapon across his chest with both hands. TDA allows a marine to move at the top speed of a marine ready to fire.

If we were going for realism, every marine would be wearing some type of LBV with their full combat load of everything they personally need access to easily within reach on the front of their torso. Something stored on your back, or worse, your buddy's back, might as well not exist in combat (are you going to stick nut to butt to the medic when you're supposed to be providing security and he has his own job to do?). Also, when clearing a building or something like a Space Hulk, everyone would have their weapons leveled on their own sector of fire at all times. It would take days to clear something like a Space Hulk and it would be impossible without enough personnel to cordon and secure everything that had been previously cleared. Go in with anything less and you might as well just shoot yourself and get it over with.

Thankfully, realism isn't really the hallmark of 40k

The ammo thing has been consistently sidestepped by GW. I once assumed that they never embarked on missions where ammo would be much of a concern, and just teleported back whenever they needed a restock, but the fluff hasn't supported that at all.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The ammo thing has been consistently sidestepped by GW. I once assumed that they never embarked on missions where ammo would be much of a concern, and just teleported back whenever they needed a restock, but the fluff hasn't supported that at all.

I think it's just one of those things they ask you to suspend your disbelief for. The style of their models doesn't really fit with pretty much anything that contemporary soldiers would wear or use, which is obviously based on practicality rather than dramatic flair. Plus, if people think the rules are bloated as they are, consider what it'd be like if you had to track rounds and the logistics of resupplies. If 40k were strictly realistic, marines would have spare magazines all over their chests and each company would come with support elements delivering logpacs. I've seen quite a few people model marines as if they were wearing LBV's with a bunch of magazine pouches, and I think it looks cool, but it's not really what GW was ever going for.

Death of Integrity made it very clear that TDA is employed on Space Hulks primarily for the radiation protection. As soon as they're able to shut down the leaking warp cores in an area, they start bringing in marines in normal tactical armor.

 Rysgame wrote:
So, I have been playing through Space Hulk and SH:Ascension. And all the Terminator armor seems to do, is make the Marines slower. Since a genestealer can one shot (For lack of better description in the games) a terminator, wouldn't it be far more efficient to deploy a tactical squad or Sternguard/Vanguard in regular power armor? Higher mobility and speed. I imagine the genestealers wont take any longer to kill them.

Poor game mechanics then.

In the fluff at least Genestealers are formidible but armor does slow them down. They can still kill Terminators but they would shred through regular power armor marines.
It also doesnt really show it, but a termaintor with a powerfist/lighting claw is a lot more deadly in CC than a power armored marine with a combat knife.

Also when you board a space hulk, you have no idea what is on it. It might be genestealers, it might be orks, it might be CSMs

jareddm wrote:
Death of Integrity made it very clear that TDA is employed on Space Hulks primarily for the radiation protection. As soon as they're able to shut down the leaking warp cores in an area, they start bringing in marines in normal tactical armor.

Yeah, the terminators are there to secure the beach head and vanguard units.
Disable the reactors and such.

Once you got that clear, lighter power armoured teams can help you clear and mop up as the termies do same in next sections.

And its pretty clear how high rad levels can be if regular power armour is not capable.

 jhe90 wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Death of Integrity made it very clear that TDA is employed on Space Hulks primarily for the radiation protection. As soon as they're able to shut down the leaking warp cores in an area, they start bringing in marines in normal tactical armor.

Yeah, the terminators are there to secure the beach head and vanguard units.
Disable the reactors and such.

Once you got that clear, lighter power armoured teams can help you clear and mop up as the termies do same in next sections.

And its pretty clear how high rad levels can be if regular power armour is not capable.

For modern example, the Fukushima reactor was recently hitting radiation levels so high that, if you jumped out of a helicopter into the heart of the reactor, you would be dead before you hit the ground.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

this one. Yes, if a stealer reaches a terminator he's probably dead. But power armour would be even more dead, and wouldnt carry the firepower to stop one at range

Mmm, those PA rules I mentioned up there? An extra thing was that you took a squad of 10 instead of the 5 termies, AND they could commit suicide.

Seriously. You could spend an AP to arm a grenade and hold it in your hand on a dead-man's-switch. If your guy subsequently died, *boom*. Congrats, Lt Gorman.

THAT'S how much trust was put into'power armour was given in Space Hulk; more men for supposedly the same chance of success, and kamikaze rules...

Pilum wrote:
Seriously. You could spend an AP to arm a grenade and hold it in your hand on a dead-man's-switch. If your guy subsequently died, *boom*. Congrats, Lt Gorman.

To be fair couldn't you do that with the Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield?

It's ringing a bell but I wouldn't swear to it; not that I'm saying you couldn't, I genuinely can't recall right now. You could with the heavy flamer of course... to be fair, if you've been told that you're going up against lightning fast monstrosities with claws capable of shredding a tank, and you choose to go sword-and-board, it's safe to say that your will to live isn't exactly what it should be and now I think about it, the difference was that it was a positive choice; you activated self-destruct that instant, not walking round holding a grenade you couldn't let go of because you'd counted the timer down.

Just seems to me that there's a bit of a difference between subtly showing one soldier the "surprise! " button on a weapon and routinely setting your entire squad to essentially prepare for failure.

Pilum wrote:
It's ringing a bell but I wouldn't swear to it; not that I'm saying you couldn't, I genuinely can't recall right now. You could with the heavy flamer of course... to be fair, if you've been told that you're going up against lightning fast monstrosities with claws capable of shredding a tank, and you choose to go sword-and-board, it's safe to say that your will to live isn't exactly what it should be and now I think about it, the difference was that it was a positive choice; you activated self-destruct that instant, not walking round holding a grenade you couldn't let go of because you'd counted the timer down.

Just seems to me that there's a bit of a difference between subtly showing one soldier the "surprise! " button on a weapon and routinely setting your entire squad to essentially prepare for failure.

Well, just to contest, a stormshield is a might fine tool for Space Hulks. If your enemy can easily and reliably penetrate your armour, having a huge shield that they cannot penetrate is a great idea, especially as it can be used to keep foes at arms reach, is useful vs non-genestealer enemies, and the fact that in such tight confines, can easily protect huge portions of your body, stormshield is a great weapon. Especially as shooting is literally a shot in the dark. IIRC, in Space Hulk (or at least the 2010 version), Genestealers could remain hidden in the shadows until they were within a few squares of the Terminators, who couldn't see more than half a dozen metres in front of them.

Pilum wrote:

Just seems to me that there's a bit of a difference between subtly showing one soldier the "surprise! " button on a weapon and routinely setting your entire squad to essentially prepare for failure.

Fair point. I like to think they had some way of deactivating it should they survive. Otherwise it could get awkward.

Deadshot wrote:Especially as shooting is literally a shot in the dark. IIRC, in Space Hulk (or at least the 2010 version), Genestealers could remain hidden in the shadows until they were within a few squares of the Terminators, who couldn't see more than half a dozen metres in front of them.

Wasn't it more that most of the corridors were quite short? There were often ways to circumvent the longer ones or bulkheads blocking line of sight.


Side question; was it ever determined if Genestealers could hypnotise Space Marines? I know they wouldn't be doing the procreation thing but as guards they could be useful.

locarno24 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

this one. Yes, if a stealer reaches a terminator he's probably dead. But power armour would be even more dead, and wouldnt carry the firepower to stop one at range

Not really, Terminators shred Genestealers in melee. The problem is that there's often thousands or millions of stealers on any Space Hulk, and they can pop out from the walls, floor, or ceiling. Or just overwhelm with pure numbers.

Terminators suffer from the Khaine Avatar/Bloodthister effect.

If you want to show how awesome someone his? Make him kill an Avatar of Khaine/Bloodthister!

Did you want to show how powerfull a weapon his? Make it destroy a Terminator armour!

The "Ceramite" of the Dreadnought armours is one of the most resistent and durables materials in all the universe but everything can destroy it, like Genestealer claws, because that way they look awesome!

 Wyzilla wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

this one. Yes, if a stealer reaches a terminator he's probably dead. But power armour would be even more dead, and wouldnt carry the firepower to stop one at range

Not really, Terminators shred Genestealers in melee. The problem is that there's often thousands or millions of stealers on any Space Hulk, and they can pop out from the walls, floor, or ceiling. Or just overwhelm with pure numbers.

In Sin of Damnation 80 terminators took out 40,000+ genestealers if I recall correctly.

 Galas wrote:
Terminators suffer from the Khaine Avatar/Bloodthister effect.

If you want to show how awesome someone his? Make him kill an Avatar of Khaine/Bloodthister!

Did you want to show how powerfull a weapon his? Make it destroy a Terminator armour!

The "Ceramite" of the Dreadnought armours is one of the most resistent and durables materials in all the universe but everything can destroy it, like Genestealer claws, because that way they look awesome!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

 Ashiraya wrote:

In Sin of Damnation 80 terminators took out 40,000+ genestealers if I recall correctly.

Not bad. I think after one of destroy the cryo-stasis pod missions they talk about how there were only several thousand Genestealers left to mop up suggesting they cope with relatively large numbers of Genestealers fairly easily.

It's funny how the lethality of Genestealers only really goes up when they are coupled with their cultist parents. A genestealer without specialist support can do little more than zerg rush the enemy in a blind charge and hope for the best, or set up an ambush.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

Check out the Commissar Cain series, this happens a couple of times. Besides, this is pretty much the answer to this thread.

One more thing I seem to remember but can't verify is terminator armour working in vaccume as well as the hazardous conditions it's famous for. Power armour (and actually even carpace armour) can be sealed but their oxygen supply is limited. Terminator armour on the other hand can recycle it's own air, or so I seem to remember but I'm not 100% sure. Also heard somewhere it can "mag lock" to surfaces and thus not be carried off in zero g. Just saying it'd be damn usefull in an old mostly destroyed Space ship to have a zero g functional armour. Can anyone verify this or am I remmembering things wrong?

Edit: The "mag-lock" thing might have been from Starcraft... Not sure

 Nerak wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Space Hulk said that only Terminator armoured Marines had a chance on Genestealer Space Hulks if I recall correctly. Storm Bolters would have double the firepower of a bolter and I'd assume that "fluffwise" a Genestealer would take time and multiple attacks to penetrate Terminator armour. It's just simplified for the game. There aren't as many Genestealers in the game as the background provided often gave but they're more powerful sort of thing. The Blood Angels Chapter was nearly wiped out in one attempt at boarding a Space Hulk (950 Marines died if memory serves).

I wanna read some decent stories about standard humans or Tau or something building a Space Hulk, not knowing what to expect. You could have great horror elements especially if the Genestealers start hypnotising people rather than just killing them.

Check out the Commissar Cain series, this happens a couple of times. Besides, this is pretty much the answer to this thread.

One more thing I seem to remember but can't verify is terminator armour working in vaccume as well as the hazardous conditions it's famous for. Power armour (and actually even carpace armour) can be sealed but their oxygen supply is limited. Terminator armour on the other hand can recycle it's own air, or so I seem to remember but I'm not 100% sure. Also heard somewhere it can "mag lock" to surfaces and thus not be carried off in zero g. Just saying it'd be damn usefull in an old mostly destroyed Space ship to have a zero g functional armour. Can anyone verify this or am I remmembering things wrong?

Edit: The "mag-lock" thing might have been from Starcraft... Not sure

I've heard the same thing about Power Armour from Lexicanum regarding oxygen supplies and magnetised boots (didn't make that up, Lexicanum power armour page)

If not mentioned, terminator armor is very resilient to ballistic and heat impacts, which make it very powerful in the field. The reason why they get chewed up in space hulk is because lore wise, the genestealers have talons that can punch through the armor.

Just like in real life, just because something is bulletproof does not make it stab proof. There is more force concentrated at a single point.

Also because it's tight corridor fighting the terminator armor allows them to carry bigger weapons which decimate targets in confined areas, like the storm bolted, assault cannon and flamer. On top of that the terminator armor allows for marines to survive the harsh environmental dangers of a space hulk, vacuum of space, no oxygen, radiation, poisonious gas.