Xenos Daemon Princes

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**Solar-powered_chainsword**

So, I've heard of several different Xenos species that have been corrupted by and serve Chaos, such as the Laer, but I don't think in all my reading I've ever read about an alien managing to ascend to daemonhood and become a Daemon Prince. I tried looking into it, but they always seem to be referred as "humans who ascend" or as having lost their "humanity". Seeing as there are entire species, if none even close to the size of the human Chaos followers, why is it there's no mention of them? I've always liked Chaos, and I think Xenos in 40k are far more interesting than humans as you get to explore a whole new biology, mentality and species with them, but I can't find anything.

So, what's the story? Is this just GW's human central mindset? Is is something that happens but just isn't seen? Is Daemon Prince even something a non-human can become? Am I just missing the fluff where they're shown?

**Deadshot**

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
So, I've heard of several different Xenos species that have been corrupted by and serve Chaos, such as the Laer, but I don't think in all my reading I've ever read about an alien managing to ascend to daemonhood and become a Daemon Prince. I tried looking into it, but they always seem to be referred as "humans who ascend" or as having lost their "humanity". Seeing as there are entire species, if none even close to the size of the human Chaos followers, why is it there's no mention of them? I've always liked Chaos, and I think Xenos in 40k are far more interesting than humans as you get to explore a whole new biology, mentality and species with them, but I can't find anything.

So, what's the story? Is this just GW's human central mindset? Is is something that happens but just isn't seen? Is Daemon Prince even something a non-human can become? Am I just missing the fluff where they're shown?

Would a Xenos Daemon Prince look different to a regular Xenos? Would it look different to a human Daemon Prince? Would a human be able to tell the difference? Would a human care?

All answers are no.

Plus, any Xenos species that worshipped Chaos were either wiped out during the Great Crusade (the Laer), by the Imperium following the Heresy, or are yet undiscovered, as the Imperium would just wipe them ASAP. The only xenos races we know of that matter are the Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Orks and Tyranids, none of which qualify, either through being too soulless to turn to Chaos, actively opposed to Chaos or Orks. The rest are too insignificant to matter. The Hrud for example, would have been wiped out had they not been so dangerous and inconsequential. But if they had Daemon Princes, you can bet your ass they'd have a Crusade fast-tracked, signed delivery before 9am sent straight to their door.

**Hierophant**

Daemon Princedom is usually granted only due to exceptional feats in service of Chaos. It's the God actually investing a portion of itself into you, which is a pretty big deal.

The issue is though, that of all the species in the galaxy, the only one that's both susceptible to Chaos, and has enough power to actually carry out the will of the Gods on a large enough scale to be noticed by them, is Humanity.

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau are largely immune to Chaos for different reasons (and even the Tau are likely too inconsequential). Orks could arguably become Daemon Princes of Khorne though, I guess, but Chaos Orks are pretty rare, so any Khornate Ork warband would be tiny and of limited galactic influence, and I doubt non-Orks would willingly serve under one.

Also, whenever you hear of Chaos Xenos, they're usually just cultists and worshippers. It seems only Humanity tend to be fanatical enough to actually try to advance the goals of the Gods across space.

**Anemone**

I find it a big pity that Xenos have near zero representation among Chaos, or the apparent fact that no Daemon Princes were ever made until the Chaos Gods found humans.

But not surprising. Just very disappointing.

**Point_blank**

There aren't even many known daemon princes that came from the ranks of ordinary humans: most were formly corrupted space marines or the daemon primarchs themselves.

But there are daemon princes older than humanity's flight into the stars. Some like doombreed were explicitly human despite not being able to sacrifice a single planet to the dark gods as a mortal. Others like Be'lakor don't have such explict origins.

But if there are ancient xenos daemon princes, they've long ago turned their backs on their mortal origins and were probably responsible for their former species extinction. Their motivations and appearance are dictated by their new masters now (except Be'lakor).

**Frazzled**

Hierophant wrote:
Daemon Princedom is usually granted only due to exceptional feats in service of Chaos. It's the God actually investing a portion of itself into you, which is a pretty big deal.

The issue is though, that of all the species in the galaxy, the only one that's both susceptible to Chaos, and has enough power to actually carry out the will of the Gods on a large enough scale to be noticed by them, is Humanity.

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau are largely immune to Chaos for different reasons (and even the Tau are likely too inconsequential). Orks could arguably become Daemon Princes of Khorne though, I guess, but Chaos Orks are pretty rare, so any Khornate Ork warband would be tiny and of limited galactic influence, and I doubt non-Orks would willingly serve under one.

Also, whenever you hear of Chaos Xenos, they're usually just cultists and worshippers. It seems only Humanity tend to be fanatical enough to actually try to advance the goals of the Gods across space.

Er...Eldar are immune to chaos?

**Deadshot**

Frazzled wrote:
Hierophant wrote:
Daemon Princedom is usually granted only due to exceptional feats in service of Chaos. It's the God actually investing a portion of itself into you, which is a pretty big deal.

The issue is though, that of all the species in the galaxy, the only one that's both susceptible to Chaos, and has enough power to actually carry out the will of the Gods on a large enough scale to be noticed by them, is Humanity.

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau are largely immune to Chaos for different reasons (and even the Tau are likely too inconsequential). Orks could arguably become Daemon Princes of Khorne though, I guess, but Chaos Orks are pretty rare, so any Khornate Ork warband would be tiny and of limited galactic influence, and I doubt non-Orks would willingly serve under one.

Also, whenever you hear of Chaos Xenos, they're usually just cultists and worshippers. It seems only Humanity tend to be fanatical enough to actually try to advance the goals of the Gods across space.

Er...Eldar are immune to chaos?

I think he means they actively fight against Chaos and don't ever fight with it (because that would lead to automatic soul-gobblling).

**Darth Bob**

Deadshot wrote:

I think he means they actively fight against Chaos and don't ever fight with it (because that would lead to automatic soul-gobblling).

Aren't there some Chaos-affiliated Eldar floating around on the Crone Worlds? I also think there were some in the Soul Drinkers novels.

**Deadshot**

Darth Bob wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

I think he means they actively fight against Chaos and don't ever fight with it (because that would lead to automatic soul-gobblling).

Aren't there some Chaos-affiliated Eldar floating around on the Crone Worlds? I also think there were some in the Soul Drinkers novels.

News to me if there are. As mentioned, seems counterproductive unless they were serving Khorne and were somehow protected from Slaanesh.

**Point_blank**

It seems less that they are immune to chaos and more their souls have already been claimed by chaos (slaanesh specifically) or are super vulnerable so never get the chance to bargain for dark gifts. All they can do it seems is hold off the inevitable and be very careful. Why would slaanesh give an eldar the offer of daemon princedom when Slaanesh already owns their soul?

Edit: Perhaps that's why there aren't xenos daemon princes mentioned. All others either get consumed instantly like the eldar or don't have a presence in the warp like the tau and necrontyr. Only humanity is in that sweep spot where they can be corrupted but still have resilience to retain an independent identity even after being wholly consumed.

**Ynneadwraith**

Deadshot wrote:

Would a Xenos Daemon Prince look different to a regular Xenos? Would it look different to a human Daemon Prince? Would a human be able to tell the difference? Would a human care?

All answers are no.

Not necessarily. We certainly don't know enough about the process of becoming a daemon prince to state with any sort of certainty that previous physical form has no effect on your ascended form. In fact, we've got at least some evidence that it does as Angron's ascended form features Butcher's Nails.

The answers to both of the first two are 'maybe, we don't really know'. Personally, I think that the form you take when you've ascended is probably a mixture of what your psyche looks like (featuring anything particularly prominent in your mind, like the Butcher's Nails or Magnus' cyclopean eye) blended with whatever the whims of your patron god are at the time.

The last two are most likely 'no, humanity probably can't tell the difference and wouldn't care if they could' though

Frazzled wrote:

Er...Eldar are immune to chaos?

Yeah, definitely not immune to Chaos. In fact, so susceptible to Chaos that they have to either hide from it in the webway and feed it tasty morsels so it doesn't eat them, or practice a mind-bendingly strict ascetic lifestyle to avoid falling to its clutches.

What the OP probably meant, and holds pretty much true, is that it's fantastically unlikely that an Eldar could rise to the ranks of a daemon prince, given that Slaanesh devours them pretty much the second they touch the warp.

Darth Bob wrote:

Aren't there some Chaos-affiliated Eldar floating around on the Crone Worlds?

Yeah there was a throwaway line or two in the older fluff books about there maybe being Eldar still living on the Croneworlds, and of Chaos Eldar being some of the most powerful of Chaos' servants. That's pretty much been soft-retconned though by never mentioning it ever again.

However, there's tons of potential in the idea if done right

Shameless plug:

Spoiler:

As for xenos Daemon Princes I do think it's simply a matter of the human-centric universe (for the most part), and the tooling costs of producing a number of wildly different models to fit the same purpose. Great conversion-fodder though

**Deadshot**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Would a Xenos Daemon Prince look different to a regular Xenos? Would it look different to a human Daemon Prince? Would a human be able to tell the difference? Would a human care?

All answers are no.

Not necessarily. We certainly don't know enough about the process of becoming a daemon prince to state with any sort of certainty that previous physical form has no effect on your ascended form. In fact, we've got at least some evidence that it does as Angron's ascended form features Butcher's Nails.

The answers to both of the first two are 'maybe, we don't really know'. Personally, I think that the form you take when you've ascended is probably a mixture of what your psyche looks like (featuring anything particularly prominent in your mind, like the Butcher's Nails or Magnus' cyclopean eye) blended with whatever the whims of your patron god are at the time.

The last two are most likely 'no, humanity probably can't tell the difference and wouldn't care if they could' though

Frazzled wrote:

Er...Eldar are immune to chaos?

Yeah, definitely not immune to Chaos. In fact, so susceptible to Chaos that they have to either hide from it in the webway and feed it tasty morsels so it doesn't eat them, or practice a mind-bendingly strict ascetic lifestyle to avoid falling to its clutches.

What the OP probably meant, and holds pretty much true, is that it's fantastically unlikely that an Eldar could rise to the ranks of a daemon prince, given that Slaanesh devours them pretty much the second they touch the warp.

Darth Bob wrote:

Aren't there some Chaos-affiliated Eldar floating around on the Crone Worlds?

Yeah there was a throwaway line or two in the older fluff books about there maybe being Eldar still living on the Croneworlds, and of Chaos Eldar being some of the most powerful of Chaos' servants. That's pretty much been soft-retconned though by never mentioning it ever again.

However, there's tons of potential in the idea if done right

Shameless plug:

Spoiler:

I've thought a reasonable amount about Chaos Eldar, coming to the conclusion that the idea of 'Eldar that just decided to worship Chaos' and 'Eldar who were corrupted by Chaos' don't quite cut the mustard fluff-wise to me. However, I'm of the opinion that you can do whatever it is you please with bending 40k fluff so long as you have a good enough reason for it, and twisted chaotic Eldar is too good of an opportunity to pass up.

I quite like the idea of Eldar who dedicated themselves to another Chaos God to try and get their protection from Slaanesh. That's got just the right nuance of desperation to it for me to like it as a piece of fluff. I can just imagine a desperate Corsair or Outcast coming to the end of their life selling their soul to one of the other gods in a desperate (and probably futile) bid to avoid being devoured. Furthermore, I can imagine one of the other Gods flaunting the fact they own an Eldar soul, demonstrating that victory over Slaanesh. It's definitely something I want to explore in the future, but for these guys I had another idea

My other idea is that Slaanesh strikes me as the sort of entity that plays with her food. Contained within her, she has billions upon billions of Eldar souls which i expect she could resurrect and toy with as she pleases, in any form she wished, before consuming them again. These Eldar wouldn't truly be alive in the conventional manner, but also wouldn't be like resurrected phantoms. As the Eldar soul retains consciousness after death, they'd not only remember who they were, but they'd also remember the centuries upon centuries of torture within the belly of Slaanesh. I imagine them as somewhat like conscious living Eldar whose souls are bound to the whims of Slaanesh.

I'd imagine the figureheads of the pleasure cults would revel in this existence, and be looked upon favourably (Favoured Playthings I've called them). For the rest of the population caught up in the cataclysm their souls would be stuck in perpetual torture, and being resurrected as a plaything would be a desperate window in the endless torment. Also, with billions of potential souls to choose from you can bet that Slaanesh would pick up on anything that displeases her, no matter how small, and replace you with another potential candidate. So, you'd get a society constructed of Eldar desperate to please Slaanesh in any way possible borne of a desperate self-centred desire to avoid being returned to torment. They're normal Eldar, reduced to committing horrific acts by the trap they find themselves in. One of my favourite types of villain plus, there's tons of potential for things like Learned Helplessness and Stockholm Syndrome to make interesting characters with

So, here's what I came up with counts-as Heralds of Slaanesh for a Croneworld counts-as Daemons army

As for xenos Daemon Princes I do think it's simply a matter of the human-centric universe (for the most part), and the tooling costs of producing a number of wildly different models to fit the same purpose. Great conversion-fodder though

See, in response to my section, I would argue that the answer is still no. A Xenos is a xenos, whether a Daemonically altered Xenos or the vanilla variety. If it were something like the Laer, for example, would anyone not intricately familiar with Laer physiology be able to distinguish between them? Its the same as asking if humans would be able to tell the difference, as humans are the only opinions or views that actually count (given that its an Imperio-centric setting and also because they are filthy heretic Xenos

).
As to whether it would look different to human DP, the answer is also no, as the whims of the gods completely influence the look of a DP, however, certain features would always be the same. Khorne would be big, red and angry, Nurgle covered in pus and flies, Slaanesh with a mass of sensory organs, sexual organs, or both (likely both sets in a single mass, or a single organ that does both), and Tzeentch a feth fest mash-up of gribbly bits and bright colours. Whether or not the DP is slightly insectoid or ape-like or has twelve limbs makes no difference, as seen with Fulgrim, humanoid DPs can grow new limbs or organs upon ascension.

As to whether humanity would care; apart from calling in the GK vs the Deathwatch, probably not. If you're Guardsman number 1x10^874648454 and a big scary monster charges you, regardless of what it is, you will A) gak your breeches B) shoot at it C)Get killed by either said monster or an angry commissar D) BLAM

**Ynneadwraith**

Deadshot wrote:

See, in response to my section, I would argue that the answer is still no. A Xenos is a xenos, whether a Daemonically altered Xenos or the vanilla variety. If it were something like the Laer, for example, would anyone not intricately familiar with Laer physiology be able to distinguish between them? Its the same as asking if humans would be able to tell the difference, as humans are the only opinions or views that actually count (given that its an Imperio-centric setting and also because they are filthy heretic Xenos ).

Sort of, although you're conflating the two. Just because the humans of the setting can't tell they're different, doesn't mean that they're not actually different which is what the first question was.

As an example, the Imperials in-setting largely don't differentiate between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar. Despite this, they have two distinct model ranges even! From the perspective of the (sort of) omniscient observer of the 40k universe, we know a lot of things that the Imperium doesn't know.

To the Imperium, a xeno is a xeno. To us, a xeno could be of any number of known types. To the Imperium, a xeno deamon prince is a daemon prince. To us, a xeno daemon prince is a xeno daemon prince, and can be as distinct as your conversion skills permit

Deadshot wrote:

As to whether it would look different to human DP, the answer is also no, as the whims of the gods completely influence the look of a DP, however, certain features would always be the same. Khorne would be big, red and angry, Nurgle covered in pus and flies, Slaanesh with a mass of sensory organs, sexual organs, or both (likely both sets in a single mass, or a single organ that does both), and Tzeentch a feth fest mash-up of gribbly bits and bright colours. Whether or not the DP is slightly insectoid or ape-like or has twelve limbs makes no difference, as seen with Fulgrim, humanoid DPs can grow new limbs or organs upon ascension.

Perhaps, but that's an assumption of how ascension to daemon princedom works. There's no actual suggestion that it's wholly up to the whims of the god in question. We know it is for greater daemons, but not for daemon princes. It could equally be that it's based heavily on how the would-be DP views himself in their mind's eye, and that because they associate with that particular god they tend to accrue similar features. However, their core identity shapes their form just as much as that of their patron.

Not saying that's exactly how it works, but it's an option. We just don't know enough about it to draw any meaningful conclusions...

**Deadshot**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

See, in response to my section, I would argue that the answer is still no. A Xenos is a xenos, whether a Daemonically altered Xenos or the vanilla variety. If it were something like the Laer, for example, would anyone not intricately familiar with Laer physiology be able to distinguish between them? Its the same as asking if humans would be able to tell the difference, as humans are the only opinions or views that actually count (given that its an Imperio-centric setting and also because they are filthy heretic Xenos ).

Sort of, although you're conflating the two. Just because the humans of the setting can't tell they're different, doesn't mean that they're not actually different which is what the first question was.

As an example, the Imperials in-setting largely don't differentiate between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar. Despite this, they have two distinct model ranges even! From the perspective of the (sort of) omniscient observer of the 40k universe, we know a lot of things that the Imperium doesn't know.

To the Imperium, a xeno is a xeno. To us, a xeno could be of any number of known types. To the Imperium, a xeno deamon prince is a daemon prince. To us, a xeno daemon prince is a xeno daemon prince, and can be as distinct as your conversion skills permit

Deadshot wrote:

As to whether it would look different to human DP, the answer is also no, as the whims of the gods completely influence the look of a DP, however, certain features would always be the same. Khorne would be big, red and angry, Nurgle covered in pus and flies, Slaanesh with a mass of sensory organs, sexual organs, or both (likely both sets in a single mass, or a single organ that does both), and Tzeentch a feth fest mash-up of gribbly bits and bright colours. Whether or not the DP is slightly insectoid or ape-like or has twelve limbs makes no difference, as seen with Fulgrim, humanoid DPs can grow new limbs or organs upon ascension.

Perhaps, but that's an assumption of how ascension to daemon princedom works. There's no actual suggestion that it's wholly up to the whims of the god in question. We know it is for greater daemons, but not for daemon princes. It could equally be that it's based heavily on how the would-be DP views himself in their mind's eye, and that because they associate with that particular god they tend to accrue similar features. However, their core identity shapes their form just as much as that of their patron.

Not saying that's exactly how it works, but it's an option. We just don't know enough about it to draw any meaningful conclusions...

From a modelling perspective you are absolutely right and make great points, however, again from a fluff point of view, is there really a difference? A Xenos DP is still a DP, and its origin species is ultimately inconsequential when its tearing through your lines or leading a Chaos Warband.

On the note of Eldar, I would argue that it is not the Imperium who fail to differentiate, but rather, the OOU player and writer who differentiate for simplicity. After all, Harlequins, Craftworld, Corsairs, Exodites, Dark, Ynneadi... all are just Eldar, there is no biological difference between them, rather, the differences lie in their lifestyle and personal beliefs. A craftworlder can become a Corsair just by heading off to raid, and can likewise return as a craftworlder (Yriel). A Dark Eldar could, if so inclined, join the Harlequins or Craftworlds and renounce his former ways, and an Exodite could journey to Commoragh to embrace her lust for power and violence.

On the second point you also make good points, and I will admit I mistakenly neglected that, however, I will again argue that its inconsequential. After all, whether the God decides utterly, or the personal perception has an impact, a Nurgle DP will still be a bloated mass of pus, filth and maggots, and a Khorne one will still be a huge angry red dude. Perhaps with Slaanesh, being focused on that personal perception, would be the one where it would have an impact, with say, a fish-based Xenos species becoming something like DC's King Shark (Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Shark), seeing itself as the peak of fishy evolution?

Its a very interesting idea to play around with and I'm keen to see possibilities that a Xenos DP could look like, such as a giant Lizard-creature, Landshark (King Shark style), maybe even a giant Praying Mantis variant, but as you say, too little information to go off

**Hierophant**

When I said the Eldar and a bunch of other Xenos were largely immune to corruption for different reasons, I should have put more emphasis on the 'largely' and 'different reasons' parts.

With the Eldar, what I mean was that unlike the other races physical immunities, theirs is largely social (it seems the Tau's immunity is a mixture of both). The Eldar are so mentally strong, and so aware of the dangers of Chaos, that's it's said to be almost impossible to corrupt them - at least in the current era. It's not to say it doesn't and can't happen, but just that it's incredibly rare. They only previously fell due to complacency and hubris, not due to an inbuilt susceptibility like with humanity.

The Eldar also had their own gods pre-fall, and it may be they were unable to become Daemon Princes, because their Gods had first dibs on their souls. Once Slaanesh was born, the Eldar became more vigilant, and it may be that due to the nature of Slaanesh, they are automatically devoured, and cannot be elevated. It may be there were Eldar Daemons pre-Fall, but the birth of Slassnesh consumed them too.

Regarding early human Daemon Princes, you could have an argument for the bar to feats being much lower back in an era where FTL among susceptible races was rare, and the Chaos Gods themselves were less influential. There's also the argument of with Slaanesh coming into being, yet instantly always having existed, making time not an important factor. It could be that Doombreed was elevated because Khorne knew of the importance of humanity and rewarded him for his contributions in making humanity more warlike, and for his knowledge of human nature, which would come into more importance in the future. This isn't Khorne having prescience, but more him likely existing outside of time as we understand it. It may be Doombreed was never a Daemon Prince until the Heresy era, and then he instantly always was one.

**Souleater**

A long time ago there were Chaos worshipping Orks, Genestealer Cults that made pacts with Chaos and that kind of thing. It felt kind of lame to be honest...very 80''s. ...just sticking 'Chaos' in front if things.

That's very much been brushed under that carpet and forgotten now.

Some races have their own presence in the Warp e.g. Orks and Tyranids. In those cases there doesn't seem to be much opportunity for the traditional big four chaos powers to nab followers.

There could be lesser chaos powers that have become patrons to other Xenos races. As yet undiscovered or already wiped out.

The case if the Aeldari also shows how interaction with Chaos can go very differently for other races.

I am deeply suspicious of the Yncarnate...looks exactly as I would expect the 'Chaos Eldar' that were mentioned as haunting the Crone Worlds. Whether such creatures still exist in the modern background is another matter.

**ProfViolence**

Hierophant wrote:

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau are largely immune to Chaos for different reasons (and even the Tau are likely too inconsequential). Orks could arguably become Daemon Princes of Khorne though, I guess, but Chaos Orks are pretty rare, so any Khornate Ork warband would be tiny and of limited galactic influence, and I doubt non-Orks would willingly serve under one.

Just to irritate my son, an Ork player, I'm going to buy a box of Boyz. I'll paint their skin red, add Khorne iconography, and field them as bloodletters in my Khorne deamons list. I'll justify it by saying they were Orks from his Waaaagh that turned.

**jhe90**

ProfViolence wrote:
Hierophant wrote:

Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids and Tau are largely immune to Chaos for different reasons (and even the Tau are likely too inconsequential). Orks could arguably become Daemon Princes of Khorne though, I guess, but Chaos Orks are pretty rare, so any Khornate Ork warband would be tiny and of limited galactic influence, and I doubt non-Orks would willingly serve under one.

Just to irritate my son, an Ork player, I'm going to buy a box of Boyz. I'll paint their skin red, add Khorne iconography, and field them as bloodletters in my Khorne deamons list. I'll justify it by saying they were Orks from his Waaaagh that turned.

They exist

Just ork ways. If you ain't green you ain't good.

**GodDamUser**

I think they may well be Xenos Daemon Princes..

But on the table top we don't really get to see that.. In the fluff typically the big daemons tend to be formless blobs of mouths and eyes.. Or they are based on the form of the host body.. And in the case of the 40k playable races.. Generally they are all Humanoid

Otherwise the Daemon prince may well choose a humanoid form to strike fear in the minds of their opponent (in 40k tabletop generally human)

**Blackhair Duckshape**

I would have to say most assuredly. We have cases of human daemon princes which predate space travel like Doombreed who is supposedly Hitler or Ghengis Khan. One would assume that in the unimaginable vastness of time and space there exists/existed/will exist a xeno species capable of producing a daemon prince or two without first forming a galaxy spanning empire. If this race is humanoid, we likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and a regular human daemon prince.

I also recall a story about some Khornate Eldar, I'm not sure if it's still/was ever canon but I like the idea of a small faction of Eldar devoting themselves to Khorne in exchange for protection from Slaanesh.

Have I ever mentioned that I hate the way this forum extends all the way to the edges of the browser? I write what feels like a massive essay and it winds up only being three lines

**EmberlordofFire8**

Be'lakor had to have been a Xenos, since he rose to Daemonhood before humanity came about.

**Ynneadwraith**

GodDamUser wrote:

Otherwise the Daemon prince may well choose a humanoid form to strike fear in the minds of their opponent (in 40k tabletop generally human)

Now that's an interesting theory. If DPs can change their form at will, or even if they can change certain parameters (such as they can change what they look like, so long as it's still Khornate), then it would make a lot of sense for them to pick stuff that falls into the uncanny valley of human-like but different to cause fear...

Actually, tinfoil hat on for a second. You could class the daemon Primarchs as xenos daemon princes. Primarchs most assuredly aren't human. They're genetic creations that only bear the loosest resemblance to humans for their purpose as figureheads. You'd need a pretty broad definition of 'human' to fit them in it. A definition certainly broader than what the Imperium usually classifies as human certainly...

**Rippy**

Bubonicus is another Xenos one AFAIK

**Deadshot**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:

Otherwise the Daemon prince may well choose a humanoid form to strike fear in the minds of their opponent (in 40k tabletop generally human)

Now that's an interesting theory. If DPs can change their form at will, or even if they can change certain parameters (such as they can change what they look like, so long as it's still Khornate), then it would make a lot of sense for them to pick stuff that falls into the uncanny valley of human-like but different to cause fear...

Actually, tinfoil hat on for a second. You could class the daemon Primarchs as xenos daemon princes. Primarchs most assuredly aren't human. They're genetic creations that only bear the loosest resemblance to humans for their purpose as figureheads. You'd need a pretty broad definition of 'human' to fit them in it. A definition certainly broader than what the Imperium usually classifies as human certainly...

You are somewhat correct however I would point out that Xenos specifically refers to aliens (coming from the Greek Xenos meaning stranger or alien). Primarchs certainly aren't human, but then, neither are Astartes. The definition of humanity is broad enough in 49k to include; regular, unaltered humans, partially-altered humans by way of bionics, radically altered by the way of mechanic or genetic enhancement, post-human warriors, The Godly Emperor of Mankind and his Demogod Primarchs, mutated abhumans (within parametres)"

Xenos specifically refers to those who dont trace their genetic line back to Terra.

**Ynneadwraith**

Deadshot wrote:

You are somewhat correct however I would point out that Xenos specifically refers to aliens (coming from the Greek Xenos meaning stranger or alien). Primarchs certainly aren't human, but then, neither are Astartes. The definition of humanity is broad enough in 49k to include; regular, unaltered humans, partially-altered humans by way of bionics, radically altered by the way of mechanic or genetic enhancement, post-human warriors, The Godly Emperor of Mankind and his Demogod Primarchs, mutated abhumans (within parametres)"

Xenos specifically refers to those who dont trace their genetic line back to Terra.

Yeah it was a bit of a tinfoil hat thing

Saying that, as is fitting for the dogmatic ignorance of the Imperium, there's tons of exceptions and blurred lines. Astartes are genetically 100% human, they've just been augmented with biologically engineered implants. In the fluff, that's how they get around the whole dogma of the 'holy human form', and the punishments for genetic engineering. As such, it seems like a lot of the definition of whether something is human or not is whether they are genetically deemed to be human (with stable sub-species of genetic humans such as ogryn and ratlings being classed as human enough).

Interestingly, that particular dogma specifically forbids changing the human form on the genetic level. It's delightfully ironic and perfectly fitting that the demigods of the Imperium, the Primarchs, fall foul of this but no-one cares. Of course, that's also flouted at many different levels of the Imperium with various genetically enhanced warriors of all types and creeds which are also fine, so the lines are blurred.

I suppose the question actually becomes whether the Primarch's contain any human DNA or whether they're entirely artificial. I suppose the answer is actually yes they do, or at least yes they are likely constructed with genetic materials from Terra. Howeverm it's definitely interesting to point out the dogma and ignorance in the IoM

adds to the whole bokeh of the setting

Actually, I really like the definition 'Xenos specifically refers to those who dont trace their genetic line back to Terra'. That's a really well formed definition that seems to catch everything. Nicely done! As an interesting tidbit, we know that the Eldar have 20 base pairs in their DNA. All life on Earth has 4 base pairs. That means we're more closely related to cuttlefish, giant sequoias and the botulinum bacteria than we are to the Eldar. Jsut a neat way of demonstrating how alien they actually are, despite visual similarities

**Frazzled**

GodDamUser wrote:
I think they may well be Xenos Daemon Princes..

But on the table top we don't really get to see that.. In the fluff typically the big daemons tend to be formless blobs of mouths and eyes.. Or they are based on the form of the host body.. And in the case of the 40k playable races.. Generally they are all Humanoid

Otherwise the Daemon prince may well choose a humanoid form to strike fear in the minds of their opponent (in 40k tabletop generally human)

I see a conversion project. Have Ork greater "demons" but have them as manifestations of Gork (or was it Mork). Use Gorkonaut rules, or Deff Dredd rules if not that over the top.

**ProwlerPC**

The massively huge majority of orks that are orky will always drown the unorky whatevers in a greentide of violent entertainment. Not to mention any warboss not wanting anything that can rival his strength to continue standing. While not immune to chaos, racial cleansing is probably quick and efficient.