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So, in my town we have 3 gaming stores. And there's a problem with each of them.

FLGS #1: The Brat Infestation. Okay, deep breath- this one's gonna sound RUDE. We have a gamer that plays M:tG and 40k. He spends A LOT of money, and this is primarily because the guy has a good sum of disposable income due to the nature of his job. The problem is, this guy brings his wife and kids to the gaming store. His kids are very... loud. And rude. And messy. They run around, make messes, handle things that do not belong to them, scream, fight amongst themselves, you name it.

His wife, instead of attempting to control the children or stay at home with them- elects to slump on our sofa (she is morbidly obese, and takes up the entire thing with her purse, kid-bags, and tends to lay with her legs across it) and play with her phone or iPad. She doesn't bother to tone the kids down, or even get up until her husband is ready to leave. One gamer at the store attempted to ask the guys to tone it down, and the only time I ever saw the wife raise her voice was to tell him that her kids have autism and they cannot help it. I don't know if this is true, and quite frankly- there comes a point where it's not my concern. It's bothersome, noisy, and in a place that small it risks hurting the child or damaging property.

The rule at our FLGS is that you clean up after yourself. Quite often, they load up and leave behind a floor covered in french fries and trash and the rest of us stay behind to clean it. Oh- yeah. It seems like this family will eat six meals from McDonald's on the weekends when he brings them to the store. And the wifey has another one on the way.

FLGS #2: Teenage Wasteland. This store tends to have a different issue- it is a 'first come first serve' table situation, and the tables tend to get hijacked by the card players and other gamers. The store caters to a much wider variety of players, and instead of establishing a few tables for a few different games, the players will just go and start using terrain tables to play cards. M:tG is big here, and these kids put more money into the stores than any other game.

To make matters worse, this is also the 'lock your stuff up' store. Bags, boxes, iPads, hats, jackets- if you don't have LOS or a lock on it, it might get swiped. People actually have bicycle-locked their model boxes to the table legs. We all know it's the teenage kids that do it, because if you come early on School days, it's not a problem. It's only on weekends when the Magic/YuGiOh players are swarming the store. To make matters worse, many of them are children of the staff at this store so they get special consideration.

And the kicker here- when this store has all these teenagers there, it smells like someone scrubbed a sasquatch's butthole with a sweatier sasquatch's butthole.

Games Workshop store: It's simply not possible to play a game in this store. The place has a couple of tables, but you can't walk through the door without him trying to stuff product down your trousers and tell you what you 'need' to optimize your army. The guy simply cannot understand- most of us will buy a pot of paint or a White Dwarf to shut him up, but you cannot play a game without this guy hovering over you and trying to make sales. I get it, it's part of the business, I got it- but his sales method doesn't help- he'll show you something, if you express that you think it's pretty cool or something, he's asking if he can ring it up for you.

I have tried, no joke- seven times to play at this store, and every time me and my gaming partner have both just called it and went somewhere else. Is there something that can be said or done to fix this- is it the norm everywhere?

Given these three locations- what would YOU do to fix all, or at least one of them to have a place to game? Because it's gotten to a point where the gamers here are starting to opt for 'road trips' an hour and a half away to game somewhere else over the weekend.

None. Use Facebook to find non-jerks and then garage hammer. Order online so stores don't get support. feth them

My local group, in order to avoid the local guys who we all hate, put 20$ in for a 100$ deposit on my HOA pool area every sat.
We bring a BBQ, put some brats on, one guy has his wife bring the kids so they can swim for a bit, then leave, and for a whole day we can get in like 6 games.
Anything like that you can do?

I second kronk, get a mutually agreed upon space and pool money to make two or three different tables worth of terrain

Is it necessary that GW stores do what the GW store is doing? Can't they, you know, piss off and let you play?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Is it necessary that GW stores do what the GW store is doing? Can't they, you know, piss off and let you play?

Depends on the store manager to be honest. Some of the best ones in the country are in my neck of the woods and the managers have a very laid back sales pitch. Pretty much greet you, say are you looking for anything, if yes help them out, if not say let me know if you need any help, or if they seem new give them the quick rundown of what the games are etc and some demos

You pretty much have to do what Kronk suggests; Garage Hammer it with some mates you can find.

However one thing I found to have worked is if you go in to the GW store and just lay it straight with the man, like "dude, I will buy stuff when I need to, and I have bought stuff before. Plus me playing here is free advertisement for your store."

That or tell him that he won't change your mind and whatever time he could be spending pestering you is time he could be using to pester someone who isn't wise to his schtick. The latter works amazingly well surprisingly.

Go to the GW store. Explain that you will never buy anything that he shows you ever. You will only buy items you came in specifically to get, unless he shows them to you, then you will buy them elsewhere and return only to play them in his store.

Or man up and tell the guy with the kids to control his fething kids and his hippopotamus. Cleaning up after them and being shouted down is a perfect way to make them feel like their behavior is acceptable.

I know gaming culture is very different in USA than in Europe and that normally stores there have gaming space.

In Europe, or at least Spain, the bigger part of wargames is done in clubs and local associations.

So, basically, put monthly fees, look for a site that you can rent for the weekends (Maybe a library? A church reunion site?) Or if you are lucky and have a big building because you have a near urbanization that normally is empty when they haven't local reunions they will leet you use it for your club/group, maybe free, maybe for a rent.
The club I'm member here cost me 60€ a year, for all the table time I want whenever I want. When we want to make a new big table we make a money collection to fund it or we make our own terrain for example. I just do a general cleaning of the rooms we use in the comunal building 2 days a year, and we have even had events with funding by the cultural office of theTown Hall, with lots of children, teaching them how to play wargames, boardgames, rpgs, etc...

It ask you more than just going to the store with your models and playing, but at the end, I find is a more enjoyable experience.

I'd have a chat with the manager of the first store and raise the point that the money spent by the dude will eventually be dwarfed by the money NOT spent by the people his family drove away.

My "local" gaming stores are between 75 and 90 miles away from me. With the sole exceptions of two local friends, and a couple of younger kids I taught one summer, I haven't been part of the official scene in 12 years.

Before I was married I'd drive 90 miles once per week to game, carpooling with a buddy. Now that I have a house, I found it's much easier to just have my own table. I think I might have a couple more guys interested in playing since 8th edition looks to be easier to learn and rules are free. I have room for a second table to leave up 24/7.

Well, if my experiences as a former GW Till Monkey are anything to go by, your local GW is doing it wrong.

Granted, my training was 7 years go and in the UK, but the training brought in then most definitely wasn't this....


Which sadly is a scenario I'm sure most of us have seen.

Big chunk of the training I underwent was all about knowing your customer. For instance, my former boss is the still the manager at my local store. He knows I'm largely immune to sales patter (as Daddy Grotsnik says, 'you can't bs a bullshitter') - but he also knows exactly how and when to push my buttons - mostly by simply reminding me something cool is still in stock.

So any GW employee who's constantly hovering isn't getting it right. Save that for the newer gamers, who will likely require the support. Those who've been playing for a while will likely come to you (but again, tailor it. Some people are naturally shy, and need you to break that ice on each visit)

Other than that? Definitely look at starting a Gaming Club.

See, the one time I went to a store, the manager was AWESOME.
1: He left us to our game, said nothing about the fact we where never there before(But he knew the one guy)
2: He didnt give me gak about only buying paint
3: He knew we where there to play
4: He gave us beer left over from a New years Party at the shop
5: After we left and where hanging out at the wing stop, he came over and hanged with us. He even started talking about.......Warmachine
Only problem was, he did NOTHING about the giant political argument in the store about Pro-gun Vs Anti-gun that was getting loud. Its apparently a thing.
Apparently

Is that store in the DC area Hotsauce? Cause I swear that sounds way too familiar.

I personally find the best time to argue my opinions about gun control is while drilling the barrels of tiny plastic guns. That my friends is catharsis



See you start with something simple like "sure is a shame about that kid" and then you wait for someone to take the bait and say "what kid?"

No, it was here in cali

I've hoofed people out of GW stores for starting on politics.

Neither the time, nor the place, and probably just looking to wind someone else up for reasons best known to themselves.

Got to be consistent though!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, it was here in cali

We had the same thing at the store I used to go to when I lived in DC. There were these three guys and every time they came in they managed to get in a fight with someone about guns while playing with little plastic gunmen. Not that that's an invalidation or anything, it's just kind of funny. This is the place you choose to talk about guns? Really?

They never got thrown out either, no matter how rowdy they got, but fortunately they didn't come around much. My experience in FLGS has generally been pretty good. Some general annoyances but nothing like the OP describes. Sounds like his area is a nightmare.

Well Option 1 and 3 are probably salvageable.

----Option 2-----

Store 2 is best avoided. Any gaming room where you need to wear a class A biohazard suit and require a decontamination shower afterwards on top of the constant risk of things getting stolen just isn't worth it in my opinion. Additionally unlike 1) the store obviously caters for this crowd and you aren't going to get much changed so best avoided.

---Option 1-----

With store 1 it appears is problematic because of one family (and by your wording appears to be your favoured haunt). It appears though the manager is unwilling or unable to deal with the situation and is being exploited by a person that *knows* they spend a lot of money and that they are less likely to be dealt with. In the long term these type of people are just bad news as they will continue to push to see how far they can go. Generally its best to try and rid yourself of the issue before it gets out of hand and does come to a head. However it depends on how vulnerable the store is to losing such income (such as if it is on a knife edge financially, but then that's a bad place to be because they could still move out of town or he could lose his job and then that's the end for the store as well).

Although I can't comment on whether the children have autism or not, it is not an excuse for letting them run riot and parents still have responsibility for their actions. It sounds more like that the parents allow them to do what the hell they want and hence they don't care what disruption they cause. I feel sorry for the teachers. There's a couple of ways of approaching this. You could persuade the manager to speak to the person but he will need to be 'strong' and enforce any new rules (such as no food/drink in the shop etc). Alternatively as gamers a good group of you might collar him and talk to him about the issue in the store. That may 'embarrass' him enough to try and reign the kids/wife in (but you'd have to keep on top of it if things slide because they will after a short period of time and the message will need to be continuously reinforced).

Alternatively you could be a bit more subtle. It is possible that this is the guy's chance to get away from the kids for a moment but the wife has no real interest in being there. As such you could make the shop less accommodating for the wife and she may then up-sticks and find some other poor company to envelop. For example you mentioned a sofa. If you remove that and replace with, for example another gaming table and remove any facility to sit down and relax then it would mean the wife would have to stand whilst waiting for the husband. Given that it sounds like she is an earthquake on two legs it is unlikely she will find this comfortable for very long and hence she may find somewhere else to go (and hopefully take one or more of the kids with them if this is the 'guys' time). As it stands the sofa, space and accommodation are making it too easy for her to treat it as café rather than a gaming store. For the gamers that want to sit whilst playing the manager could perhaps provide fold away chairs but these are *only* to be used for people playing games.

---- Option 3 ----

Store 3 (the GW one) could be the easiest to resolve. Firstly if you go there only ever to play games and never buy anything then you aren't really helping and I can understand the sales person being a bit pushy. However if they start you can speak to him quietly and calmly that what he is doing is really annoying then he may back off (not to the point not to talk at all, light banter should be fine!). If he backs off on the overbearing sales pitch (or even just improves) then buy something at the end of the session, but if he continues the sales pitch then you'll play the game and not buy anything. If you commit to this (and buy something reasonably substantial, i.e. not a pot of paint) then this may send a positive reinforcement message and if you repeat this each time then it is likely that a lesson will be learnt (you could even tell him what you are going to do). However it is important you do buy something each time there is an improvement. It's very basic and a bit like training a dog but it can work on people too...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
My local group, in order to avoid the local guys who we all hate, put 20$ in for a 100$ deposit on my HOA pool area every sat.

A very good idea, and there's often places you could use for free in a larger apartment block. A mate used to live in a place that had a reasonably large conference room (or whatever use it was) with enough tables and chairs to seat all residents if they needed to hold a meeting about something. They seldom did so it wasn't exactly difficult for him to book the space for an evening, and he also managed a full saturday or sunday once every six weeks or so. So for an evening we could set up 2-3 tables and manage a full game on each, a whole day meant several games.

Ofc, we had to clean up after us but that's common courtesy in any place you'd play.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
My local group, in order to avoid the local guys who we all hate, put 20$ in for a 100$ deposit on my HOA pool area every sat.
We bring a BBQ, put some brats on, one guy has his wife bring the kids so they can swim for a bit, then leave, and for a whole day we can get in like 6 games.
Anything like that you can do?

Now that is the perfect solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, it was here in cali

We had the same thing at the store I used to go to when I lived in DC. There were these three guys and every time they came in they managed to get in a fight with someone about guns while playing with little plastic gunmen. Not that that's an invalidation or anything, it's just kind of funny. This is the place you choose to talk about guns? Really?

They never got thrown out either, no matter how rowdy they got, but fortunately they didn't come around much. My experience in FLGS has generally been pretty good. Some general annoyances but nothing like the OP describes. Sounds like his area is a nightmare.

As a self avowed gun nut, we never talked politics in stores. Now we'd talk about our latest acquisition etc. but we did the same about houses, etc.

 Whirlwind wrote:

---Option 1-----

With store 1 it appears is problematic because of one family (and by your wording appears to be your favoured haunt).

Although I can't comment on whether the children have autism or not, it is not an excuse for letting them run riot and parents still have responsibility for their actions.

It has been for some time, but since this guy came back from work overseas (He's a high-end contractor with the DoD), this problem has been happening a bit more. Apparently, it was this way before he left (and long before I got to this area).

And as far as the 'autism' thing goes, I don't know how you guys have it in the UK- but there's a stereotype with some merit about parents that have really bad, uncontrolled children saying they have Autism. It's the new ADD- it's real, and there's a lot of people that claim their kids have it just to excuse poor parenting and poor behavior. That makes it harder for parents with children that DO have Autism (my cousin, for example) to get some credibility.

 Whirlwind wrote:
---- Option 3 ----

Store 3 (the GW one) could be the easiest to resolve. Firstly if you go there only ever to play games and never buy anything then you aren't really helping and I can understand the sales person being a bit pushy. However if they start you can speak to him quietly and calmly that what he is doing is really annoying then he may back off (not to the point not to talk at all, light banter should be fine!). If he backs off on the overbearing sales pitch (or even just improves) then buy something at the end of the session, but if he continues the sales pitch then you'll play the game and not buy anything. If you commit to this (and buy something reasonably substantial, i.e. not a pot of paint) then this may send a positive reinforcement message and if you repeat this each time then it is likely that a lesson will be learnt (you could even tell him what you are going to do). However it is important you do buy something each time there is an improvement. It's very basic and a bit like training a dog but it can work on people too...

Yeah, I've been thinking about seeing if he'll just stock some very specific purchases, and telling him I'll support him in purchasing from him. The problem is, you can't buy a box of Tartaros terminators without him trying to shove the Burning of Prospero box at you.

What I have been doing is telling him "I have a sixty-dollar budget today" and he generally lets me make my purchases. But he still keeps trying to hound me. I get it, I've worked retail stores before and I know how those sales pay the bills. But if you're in the store he's trying to make a sale. My fiance' won't even go in this store, because she has expressed zero interest in playing the game and the ONLY part of the hobby she cares about is that we have an excuse to go to the crafts store together. Oddly enough, the lady will gladly accompany me to any other store because she particularly likes children and loves spending time with them. Yet it never fails, old dude is always trying to sell her something and she just gets fed up with it and refuses to go inside.

Oh, and she can't even handle the 'autistic' kids that the dude brings in, and she works with children with various disorders for a living. Part of the reason that the 'they have autism' thing has some doubts behind it.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


And as far as the 'autism' thing goes, I don't know how you guys have it in the UK- but there's a stereotype with some merit about parents that have really bad, uncontrolled children saying they have Autism. It's the new ADD- it's real, and there's a lot of people that claim their kids have it just to excuse poor parenting and poor behavior. That makes it harder for parents with children that DO have Autism (my cousin, for example) to get some credibility.

No it's less like that over here. Bad children are generally assumed to be because of poor parenting (and occasionally they like to blame the schools). Unfortunately you can get the opposite effect though that autistic children don't get picked up early enough (teachers/lecturers aren't allowed to suggest a child is autistic, they can only suggest the parents visit a doctors to make a diagnosis and a lot just don't which holds back the child for years and years).

Your language suggests that you are suspicious that the children (how many are there?) are not autistic but just unruly and lack control (especially given your partners experience as well). The parents approach (one just buying games, the other just ignoring the world) might also indicate the children have a severe lack of discipline and what they are demonstrating could be due to this and either the parents don't care or have given up; which can only be bad news for the children's future. That they don't also clear up after their kids would imply a lack of care or concern.

However it doesn't really solve the problem. if you can persuade the manager and the rest of the gamers there I would suggest trying to change things in the shop. They are both using it as an excuse to let some else look after them whilst they do their own thing. The guy will probably still come in (he is after things after all). The wife is likely to stop coming in if it makes her uncomfortable. I would seriously consider trying to get the sofa removed and replace it with another small gaming table, display case etc (so it doesn't look too obvious). That way she has no place to rest her feet and hence is less likely to stay around (my suspicion is she won't want to stand for too long). Of course you could be really mean and have a conversation with your friends whilst she is in ear shot that you heard that unscrupulous characters had been seen around the shop...

Yeah, I've been thinking about seeing if he'll just stock some very specific purchases, and telling him I'll support him in purchasing from him. The problem is, you can't buy a box of Tartaros terminators without him trying to shove the Burning of Prospero box at you.

What I have been doing is telling him "I have a sixty-dollar budget today" and he generally lets me make my purchases. But he still keeps trying to hound me. I get it, I've worked retail stores before and I know how those sales pay the bills. But if you're in the store he's trying to make a sale. My fiance' won't even go in this store, because she has expressed zero interest in playing the game and the ONLY part of the hobby she cares about is that we have an excuse to go to the crafts store together. Oddly enough, the lady will gladly accompany me to any other store because she particularly likes children and loves spending time with them. Yet it never fails, old dude is always trying to sell her something and she just gets fed up with it and refuses to go inside.

This probably won't work, because he'll just push something in relation to what he thinks you want. You need to be stern with him when he starts and tell him that he is annoying you (and your partner); that if it continues you won't buy anything but if ceases then you will (but you must follow through with this). It's positive reinforcement with a harsh undertone, if you are playing a game just turn round and tell him sternly "No, not now" and then turn back around to your game and then ignore him - don't even entertain talking about a product. He has to understand that it is what he is doing that could damage the sale. It's best not to try and get something in specifically for you because then he will try and push it on to you (he's taken a risk and doesn't want to see it sitting there). It's hard because as person you never want to make someone feel bad but sometimes you must to get them to change their ways. It won't happen overnight so it will take some work. He's probably a decent person underneath, just desperate for sales to keep the job and that's pushing him to take desperate actions.

Autistic children will act uncontrollably in certain ways, but the behavior you are describing is inexcusable. If the children's autism is actually present/that severe then the parent has even MORE of a responsibility to teach the kids proper behavior since they are incapable of learning it on their own. A parent who claims nonexistent autism to do nothing about a child's behavior is bad, but a parent who uses actual autism to do nothing about a child's behavior is downright despicable. They are setting their kids up for failure the rest of their lives. I have ASD (high functioning, but still) and people I interact with generally don't realize I have it because my parents taught me how to act appropriately. What these parents are doing is lying and poor parenthood at BEST.

Moved from OT.

FYI gaming-related subjects are not off-topic. I mention this specifically because some users (wisely) avoid the OT altogether so may not see your post.

Turning to the topic:

@dorito marine

LGS #1 - manager needs to step in

LGS #2 - manager needs to step in

WH Store - sorry charlie, they ain't designed to be LGS-equivalent

I think you will have better luck with LGS #1. The problem with LGS #2 is, you will never get the business to guarantee the security of your possessions. With LGS #1, you can make a solid argument to a manager that the McFamily is fething up the ambiance and in fact already in violation of store policy, given their hygienic incompetence.

I reckon you could also talk to Daddy McFamily but that seems like a presumptive dead end. He probably can only play at the LGS on condition that everyone can come along. May also be a case of, "I spend money here so this is my store" type colonization.

Your WH store manager sounds like he needs to work on his sales technique. But he is just trying to make a living, however ham-handedly. The best thing a WH store manager can do is encourage people with really nicely painted stuff, especially stuff that is actually also on the shelves for sale, to enjoy themselves so that new customers who have come in to see what this hobby is all about can see the spectacle in progress and hopefully ask the players some questions. Getting existing customers to sell to new customers is obviously part of the WH store strategy, even if that can be tricky depending on who comes in. Not sure there is a way to explain that to the guy without being his manager or at least buddy, however.

@NinthMusketeer

Totally agree - blaming bad parenting on an afflication the kid has to live with is pretty lame.

The first store - I mean I understand this. My neice has *serious* autism, and it's a complete handful for the parents to deal with. They're wonderful people, they just get overwhelmed. It's tough being a parent to a kid like that, and they do an amazing job, but it wears them down. I have to believe that there's a way to communicate to these parents to be more considerate. If you try to pin it on the kids they will become defensive; you could remind them that ultimately the mess is their responsibility. Keep in mind too, that it is 100% impossible to get a sitter for autistic kids (depending on area). If she's lying about the autism that's a new kind of low, and you have my permission to start swinging.

The second store is simply not correctable. Leave it behind.

As for the GW store, I understand what you mean. You can't walk into a GW store without the guy behind the counter trying to sell you white dwarf and other stuff. That's just the way of it. But this problem is correctable by having a friendly conversation, or just dismiss it as dealing with a salesperson. If he's being pushy he might be under intense pressure, perhaps some sympathy is in order.

@Marmatag

But why are we talking about finding a sitter? The kids (autistic or otherwise) have two parents who can be at different places at the same time. Daddy McFamily could go to the game store without bringing McMamma and the McNuggets - they choose to move as a McHerd. McMamma has laid down the law about this (cannot bear to be pit alone against the McNuggets?) and/or Daddy McFamily brings them along to help mark LGS #1 as his territory.

We don't play in gaming stores. We rent a room out at a Community Centre every Saturday night for 4 hours. Its relaxed, in a location with good facilities and we have 100% control over the venue (we're key holders for the centre, and we're the only group using it on Saturday nights). We even get our own cupboard to store wargaming terrain and board games in.

Admittedly we've gotten a good and very generous deal which probably won't be possible for most gaming groups. We only have to pay £2 per person that attends each session (2 people = £4, 10 people = £20), so we don't have a fixed cost every week. The owners don't want the centre to go unused on Saturdays, and consider letting us use it for cheap to be a way of promoting the community centre and helping us grow our club. If we were paying full cost, it would probably be £15 - £20 per session.

Does the USA have community centres? If you have a decent sized group, it could be a viable option.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Does the USA have community centres? If you have a decent sized group, it could be a viable option.

We do, but...

HARSH TRUTH INCOMING

STAND BY FOR TRIGGERINGS

Here, it's in the ghetto. And a LOT of them are in the ghetto in this state. Let me explain the issues that would come with that.

-Junkies and Vagrants will linger around, and they're quick to break into vehicles and steal anything they can get their mitts on. If they aren't stealing it, they're lingering around and bumming money. Look, I get it- they have problems and I do have some sympathy, but handing out cash to these guys means they'll start following you (and perhaps attempt to rob you for any spare cash you have).

-The ghetto kids show up and start trouble, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Oh- and they'll steal your stuff just as fast. That's if they're not brawling.

-All of us would have to throw in on terrain. We have jobs, we have money- but not disposable income that can afford us armies AND the kind of terrain you have at a FLGS.

-It is usually booked by religious outreach groups. Oh, and the local cult. I'm not joking.

Our best hope so far is to see if someone can open up the garage. Mine is off-limits, as it's actually being used as a garage to work on things.

Yes - as someone mentioned above, the best we generally have in the States are library conference rooms. These are not very convenient. Obviously, the library frowns on the noise level that tends to go along with gamers having a good time. And there are logistical problems, for example: many libraries have policies against grouos making standing reservations of space.

I wonder what kind of off-season deals one could manage for hotel conference space.

Yep, rent-able spaces in the US are surprisingly...hard to come by. Namely a place where you can set up a large table, game with several people and not be super-quiet. Often they're quite expensive to rent to, particularly for only 6-8-10 hours. Hotels often have small conference rooms but rates are exceptionally high.

Other places like libraries, churches etc. are not always the most receptive to wargames, etc. Genuine community centers? Forget about it...see Adeptus' post above.

Essentially you're best off finding someone locally who has spare garage space, etc.