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So I've been looking at running a Custodes army and have Voldus be their leader. I'm running the Custodes in the 3 troop 1 elite force org and then taking an inquisitorial ally and using that HQ slot for voldus.

My question is, in the inquisition handbook it states that all models must be from inquisition in the force org (or something to this wording), in gathering storm it says I can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot, is it legal for me to take him in this manner? Or do I have to run the normal CAD with the custodes?

icefire78 wrote:
So I've been looking at running a Custodes army and have Voldus be their leader. I'm running the Custodes in the 3 troop 1 elite force org and then taking an inquisitorial ally and using that HQ slot for voldus.

My question is, in the inquisition handbook it states that all models must be from inquisition in the force org (or something to this wording), in gathering storm it says I can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot, is it legal for me to take him in this manner? Or do I have to run the normal CAD with the custodes?

I think you would have to use a cad or allied attachment. Inq ally is a faction specific formation, cad and allied attachment are not, he is inherently a grey knight and those formations are inherently non dedicated to a faction.

Ok, that was what I was thinking also, thank you! May have to figure out another good ally for my custodes.

does it state in any imperium army or is like the gathering storm 1 charaters, that they can be used in a cad or allied detachment for any imperium army?

Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

He is joining the unit, the unit deep strikes. As long as he has deep strike he can join them. The formation rules are for the unit.

Ceann wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

He is joining the unit, the unit deep strikes. As long as he has deep strike he can join them. The formation rules are for the unit.

In other words, the unit scatters 2d6. The IC does not have the formation rules and forces the unit to scatter fully.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:


My question is, in the inquisition handbook it states that all models must be from inquisition in the force org (or something to this wording), in gathering storm it says I can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot, is it legal for me to take him in this manner? Or do I have to run the normal CAD with the custodes?

Every faction-specific force org (with HQ and Elites/Troops etc.) says the same thing - that the units you select must be from *this* faction. If his rules say "any Imperium army" in the "HQ slot," then it overrides the codices. If it says "Any Combined Arms Detachment" with the "Imperium faction" (or similar) then it does not.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Ceann wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

He is joining the unit, the unit deep strikes. As long as he has deep strike he can join them. The formation rules are for the unit.

In other words, the unit scatters 2d6. The IC does not have the formation rules and forces the unit to scatter fully.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:


My question is, in the inquisition handbook it states that all models must be from inquisition in the force org (or something to this wording), in gathering storm it says I can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot, is it legal for me to take him in this manner? Or do I have to run the normal CAD with the custodes?

Every faction-specific force org (with HQ and Elites/Troops etc.) says the same thing - that the units you select must be from *this* faction. If his rules say "any Imperium army" in the "HQ slot," then it overrides the codices. If it says "Any Combined Arms Detachment" with the "Imperium faction" (or similar) then it does not.

You don't override a codex.
The unit scatters 1d6.
The IC rules count him as a part of that unit for ALL purposes.

A GK cannot use an inquisitor formation because he isn't an inquisitor. A gk can use a cad or allied attachment. So he could take Voldus with an infantry platoon, or a SM scout squad or skitarii rangers or whatever but it had to be in a formation open to his faction which a CAD and allied attachments are.

This is the same reason you can't take RG as an IK.

Ceann wrote:

You don't override a codex.
The unit scatters 1d6.
The IC rules count him as a part of that unit for ALL purposes.

Wrong. From the FAQ:

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.

Further clarification:

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn.

The unit will scatter 2d6.

Ceann wrote:


A GK cannot use an inquisitor formation because he isn't an inquisitor. A gk can use a cad or allied attachment. So he could take Voldus with an infantry platoon, or a SM scout squad or skitarii rangers or whatever but it had to be in a formation open to his faction which a CAD and allied attachments are.

This is the same reason you can't take RG as an IK.

And wrong. If the rule says "Can be taken as part of any Imperial detachment" then you look at the faction - is it imperial? is it a detachment with the appropriate slot? If yes to both, you're good. Some of the Gathering Storm characters exclusively mention CAD's and AD's, some don't.

@ icefire78: Be wary of Ceann's responses to this and other topics, I won't be engaging Ceann further here but wanted to make sure you had the correct info.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Ceann wrote:

You don't override a codex.
The unit scatters 1d6.
The IC rules count him as a part of that unit for ALL purposes.

Wrong. From the FAQ:

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.

A GK cannot use an inquisitor formation because he isn't an inquisitor. A gk can use a cad or allied attachment. So he could take Voldus with an infantry platoon, or a SM scout squad or skitarii rangers or whatever but it had to be in a formation open to his faction which a CAD and allied attachments are.

This is the same reason you can't take RG as an IK.

And wrong. If the rule says "Can be taken as part of any Imperial detachment" then you look at the faction - is it imperial? is it a detachment with the appropriate slot? If yes to both, you're good. Some of the Gathering Storm characters exclusively mention CAD's and AD's, some don't.

That faq is specific to NSF. The IC doesn't gain the rule to arrive a turn earlier.
Because the formation gains the rule.
The rule in question is a modifier of the deep strike rule which is a rule Voldus does have, he is not gaining it from the formation.

You never override a codex.
You override basic conflicting rules.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Ceann wrote:

You don't override a codex.
The unit scatters 1d6.
The IC rules count him as a part of that unit for ALL purposes.

Wrong. From the FAQ:

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.

Further clarification:

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn.

The unit will scatter 2d6.

It should be pointed out that the FAQ you quoted falls under a double standard. Many of the "reasons" they give that it won't work would stop Stubborn from working, too, and that rule is one that is supposed to show us how special rules do work between unit and IC.

In what I quoted? Because I read "although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn" as being an exception.

I've seen your arguments on this in other threads, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed again to the point that certain other individuals force this thread off topic, but if you could quickly clarify that may help the OP and myself see it in what I quoted.

Voldus got the same rule as Guilliman, who this forum already concluded could be taken as an Imperial Knight LoW (and thus become a Super-Heavy Walker). There's no reason you can't slap Voldus in an Inquisition slot because his rule, like Guilliman's, disregards faction restrictions.

Jacksmiles wrote:
In what I quoted? Because I read "although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn" as being an exception.

I've seen your arguments on this in other threads, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed again to the point that certain other individuals don't force this thread off topic, but if you could quickly clarify that may help the OP and myself see it in what I quoted.

IC & Special Rules tells us that Stubborn tells us that Stubborn specifies that it confers between IC & unit.

Stubborn works is by applying its affect to the unit as a whole. It gives two conditions for a unit and then allows that unit the ability to ignore an affect when it fulfills those conditions.

IC & Special Rules does not tell us that "when a special rule has the same condition of possession as Stubborn", it states that Stubborn states it confers between IC & Unit. Stubborn gives its ability to the unit entire, and that is the only time Stubborn actually does anything. Even then, it doesn't give the actual rule itself to any anything, all it does is affect the unit with its ability. No real difference from Blind.

The only time that Stubborn can be considered affecting both unit and joined IC is when it addresses the unit as a whole and we remember that when an IC "is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes...".

If Special Rules like Stubborn and Stealth, which only work by addressing the units with their abilities, why then do other rules that address units with their abilities not work? I can understand for those whose conditions were set like Fleet and Deep Strike which require all models to have them, but this is not a stated in most of those other special rules nor is it a general requirement until we get to the FAQ.

Jacksmiles wrote:
In what I quoted? Because I read "although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn" as being an exception.

I've seen your arguments on this in other threads, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed again to the point that certain other individuals don't force this thread off topic, but if you could quickly clarify that may help the OP and myself see it in what I quoted.

The other formations you referenced grant the unit an ability that an IC would not gain because they are not a part of the formation.
There is no ability granted by the formation that Voldus does not already have, namely deep strike.

The rule is modifying deep strike, he has deep strike.
In the cases you reference those pertain to things like shock deployment which an IC from outside the formation can't gain.
This formation grants the custodes deep strike, he already had deep strike so he is not conflicting with the formation rule.

Any Imperial detachment. Is a cad something any Imperial can take? Yes.
Can I use an oathsworn detachment to take a baneblade? No. It isn't in his codex.

Codex precedence or army list entry precedence only relates to the own document in which it is contained. If you want to take an inq, with servo skulls you have to use the inq codex, you can't use imperial agents. Each is specific to a codex. It can't answer for another codex.
A cad and allied attachment are basic formations that can be RG or Voldus can override. You cannot override another codexs formation. Which is why RG can go in a cad with non ultramarines, his data sheet can overide a cad, cad is from BRB.

 Charistoph wrote:


If Special Rules like Stubborn and Stealth, which only work by addressing the units with their abilities, why then do other rules that address units with their abilities not work? I can understand for those whose conditions were set like Fleet and Deep Strike which require all models to have them, but this is not a stated in most of those other special rules nor is it a general requirement until we get to the FAQ.

But we do now have that FAQ that tells us this is the case. I agree with you that RAW in the rulebook Stubborn says nothing about IC's though we are told it's supposed to clarify how it works in regards to them. But when we look at the FAQ and it says "Formation rules only work on models from the formation, unless it's a rule like Stubborn that does confer." The question then becomes "what rules DO confer, and how do we know?" RAW, we really don't for sure, we can make a lot of educated guesses though. I would posit that they would be named USR's, with phrasing like "if one model in a unit has this rule," and I'm 90% sure that's how it's generally played. BUT the exceptions explicitly stated in the FAQ are Stubborn and Stealth - not the rule that is in the detachment in question, and that rule is phrased nothing like Stubborn or Stealth. I've probably taken this farther off-topic than I wanted to, but I feel like in this case where it's easy for those with the chops for it to prove that RAW doesn't even exist, it's best to go with the most generally accepted understanding. Which would be 2d6 scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
In what I quoted? Because I read "although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn" as being an exception.

I've seen your arguments on this in other threads, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed again to the point that certain other individuals don't force this thread off topic, but if you could quickly clarify that may help the OP and myself see it in what I quoted.

The other formations you referenced grant the unit an ability that an IC would not gain because they are not a part of the formation.
There is no ability granted by the formation that Voldus does not already have, namely deep strike.

The rule is modifying deep strike, he has deep strike.
In the cases you reference those pertain to things like shock deployment which an IC from outside the formation can't gain.
This formation grants the custodes deep strike, he already had deep strike so he is not conflicting with the formation rule.

He has deep strike, but he has deep strike on 2d6 scatter, and formation bonus changes it to 1d6. He is not part of the formation, he scatters 2d6 - he forces the unit he has joined to do the same.

Any Imperial detachment. Is a cad something any Imperial can take? Yes.
Can I use an oathsworn detachment to take a baneblade? No. It isn't in his codex.

Codex precedence or army list entry precedence only relates to the own document in which it is contained. If you want to take an inq, with servo skulls you have to use the inq codex, you can't use imperial agents. Each is specific to a codex. It can't answer for another codex.
A cad and allied attachment are basic formations that can be RG or Voldus can override. You cannot override another codexs formation. Which is why RG can go in a cad with non ultramarines, his data sheet can overide a cad, cad is from BRB.

This is just nonsense. You're saying the rule basically doesn't even exist as it is written. Imperial faction detachments is a much wider net than "Combined Arms Detachment" or "Allied Detachment." You've already been proven to lack credibility and understanding in basic vs. advanced rules.

Your servo skull example has no point. "If you want to use the rule, you use the source it's in" is basically what you're saying. I can point to a rule that says I can put Voldus as an HQ in any detachment from Armies of the Imperium -it's directly on his data sheet. You haven't refuted that in any way at all.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


If Special Rules like Stubborn and Stealth, which only work by addressing the units with their abilities, why then do other rules that address units with their abilities not work? I can understand for those whose conditions were set like Fleet and Deep Strike which require all models to have them, but this is not a stated in most of those other special rules nor is it a general requirement until we get to the FAQ.

But we do now have that FAQ that tells us this is the case. I agree with you that RAW in the rulebook Stubborn says nothing about IC's though we are told it's supposed to clarify how it works in regards to them. But when we look at the FAQ and it says "Formation rules only work on models from the formation, unless it's a rule like Stubborn that does confer." The question then becomes "what rules DO confer, and how do we know?" RAW, we really don't for sure, we can make a lot of educated guesses though. I would posit that they would be named USR's, with phrasing like "if one model in a unit has this rule," and I'm 90% sure that's how it's generally played. BUT the exceptions explicitly stated in the FAQ are Stubborn and Stealth - not the rule that is in the detachment in question, and that rule is phrased nothing like Stubborn or Stealth. I've probably taken this farther off-topic than I wanted to, but I feel like in this case where it's easy for those with the chops for it to prove that RAW doesn't even exist, it's best to go with the most generally accepted understanding. Which would be 2d6 scatter.

The formation rules grant them deep strike, voldus already has deep strike so he is not conflicting with the rule. The examples you stated conflict with an IC because you are trying to deploy him differently, normally that IC couldn't come in on the first turn.

This is the same scenario as only an IC with infiltration can attach to a unit infiltrating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


If Special Rules like Stubborn and Stealth, which only work by addressing the units with their abilities, why then do other rules that address units with their abilities not work? I can understand for those whose conditions were set like Fleet and Deep Strike which require all models to have them, but this is not a stated in most of those other special rules nor is it a general requirement until we get to the FAQ.

But we do now have that FAQ that tells us this is the case. I agree with you that RAW in the rulebook Stubborn says nothing about IC's though we are told it's supposed to clarify how it works in regards to them. But when we look at the FAQ and it says "Formation rules only work on models from the formation, unless it's a rule like Stubborn that does confer." The question then becomes "what rules DO confer, and how do we know?" RAW, we really don't for sure, we can make a lot of educated guesses though. I would posit that they would be named USR's, with phrasing like "if one model in a unit has this rule," and I'm 90% sure that's how it's generally played. BUT the exceptions explicitly stated in the FAQ are Stubborn and Stealth - not the rule that is in the detachment in question, and that rule is phrased nothing like Stubborn or Stealth. I've probably taken this farther off-topic than I wanted to, but I feel like in this case where it's easy for those with the chops for it to prove that RAW doesn't even exist, it's best to go with the most generally accepted understanding. Which would be 2d6 scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
In what I quoted? Because I read "although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn" as being an exception.

I've seen your arguments on this in other threads, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed again to the point that certain other individuals don't force this thread off topic, but if you could quickly clarify that may help the OP and myself see it in what I quoted.

The other formations you referenced grant the unit an ability that an IC would not gain because they are not a part of the formation.
There is no ability granted by the formation that Voldus does not already have, namely deep strike.

The rule is modifying deep strike, he has deep strike.
In the cases you reference those pertain to things like shock deployment which an IC from outside the formation can't gain.
This formation grants the custodes deep strike, he already had deep strike so he is not conflicting with the formation rule.

He has deep strike, but he has deep strike on 2d6 scatter, and formation bonus changes it to 1d6. He is not part of the formation, he scatters 2d6 - he forces the unit he has joined to do the same.

Any Imperial detachment. Is a cad something any Imperial can take? Yes.
Can I use an oathsworn detachment to take a baneblade? No. It isn't in his codex.

Codex precedence or army list entry precedence only relates to the own document in which it is contained. If you want to take an inq, with servo skulls you have to use the inq codex, you can't use imperial agents. Each is specific to a codex. It can't answer for another codex.
A cad and allied attachment are basic formations that can be RG or Voldus can override. You cannot override another codexs formation. Which is why RG can go in a cad with non ultramarines, his data sheet can overide a cad, cad is from BRB.

This is just nonsense. You're saying the rule basically doesn't even exist as it is written. Imperial faction detachments is a much wider net than "Combined Arms Detachment" or "Allied Detachment." You've already been proven to lack credibility and understanding in basic vs. advanced rules.

Your servo skull example has no point. "If you want to use the rule, you use the source it's in" is basically what you're saying. I can point to a rule that says I can put Voldus as an HQ in any detachment from Armies of the Imperium -it's directly on his data sheet. You haven't refuted that in any way at all.

Proven to lack understanding?
The issue is exactly the opposite.

People have a false pretense of BvA they refuse to let go of.
All of their arguments are based off assumption and rather than discussing your own view, you buy into mob mentality.

Shame on you.

People get upset when they get told they are wrong. Nothing new.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


If Special Rules like Stubborn and Stealth, which only work by addressing the units with their abilities, why then do other rules that address units with their abilities not work? I can understand for those whose conditions were set like Fleet and Deep Strike which require all models to have them, but this is not a stated in most of those other special rules nor is it a general requirement until we get to the FAQ.

But we do now have that FAQ that tells us this is the case. I agree with you that RAW in the rulebook Stubborn says nothing about IC's though we are told it's supposed to clarify how it works in regards to them. But when we look at the FAQ and it says "Formation rules only work on models from the formation, unless it's a rule like Stubborn that does confer." The question then becomes "what rules DO confer, and how do we know?" RAW, we really don't for sure, we can make a lot of educated guesses though. I would posit that they would be named USR's, with phrasing like "if one model in a unit has this rule," and I'm 90% sure that's how it's generally played. BUT the exceptions explicitly stated in the FAQ are Stubborn and Stealth - not the rule that is in the detachment in question, and that rule is phrased nothing like Stubborn or Stealth. I've probably taken this farther off-topic than I wanted to, but I feel like in this case where it's easy for those with the chops for it to prove that RAW doesn't even exist, it's best to go with the most generally accepted understanding. Which would be 2d6 scatter.

You asked why I consider it a double standard, and that is why. If the IC is part of the unit for Stubborn and Stealth, why not for any of these Detachment Special Rules that affect the unit? Is it still not part of the unit? Why are to consider where the IC comes from when we're not considering anything about its unit for anything else?

It's not the only one in the FAQ making up rules that have no written rules regarding it. For example, the Battle Brothers being unable to be Embarked on a Transport during Deployment. If anything the written rules specifically allow it as much as it would any unit of the same Faction. Yet, here we are.

Let's dig in and fully explicate why an Independent Character attached to a unit in a Golden Legion Task Force does not get the Golden Legion Task Force unit's special rules.

Consider the case of a 3 man unit of Crisis Suits which I think sheds light on the issues involved. You purchase Vectored Retro-thrusters for one of the models giving that model Hit & Run and Fleet. So basically you have a model that has Hit & Run and Fleet, but you don't have a unit that has Hit & Run and Fleet.

The thing to determine is if the ability of the special rule on that model confers to the unit or not.

Hit & Run reads "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . can" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will confer to the unit and the unit will have the Hit & Run ability.

Fleet reads "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will not confer to the unit and no model in the unit will have the Fleet ability.

The use of the indefinite article in "a unit" means that "a unit" itself is being used in a non-specific, general way. If all one says is "a unit" then nothing is being specified at all about "a unit". "A unit" can refer to a unit as described on an Army List Entry or it can refer to a unit with an Independent Character attached to it or it can refer to a unit that is shooting, or a Deathmark unit, etc. "A unit" could refer to a unit that has no models with a special rule.

But, we aren't just dealing with "a unit". We are dealing in the case of Hit & Run with "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule". "That contains at least one model with this special rule" is an dependent adjectival clause modifying "a unit". The adjectival clause provides information that specifies how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit. When we go to define what kind of unit the special rule will confer to, if we are dealing with a unit that has at least one model with the special rule . . . can" then the Hit & Run ability will confer from the model or models with the special rule to the unit. Since this dependent adjectival clause matches Stubborn's dependent adjectival clause in wording and function (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit) we can consider a Special Rule that has a clause to this effect to be "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".

#############################

So now let's consider the case of an Independent Character attached to 3 man unit of Crisis Suits where one model has Hit & Run and Fleet.

Essentially it works out the same way as when only one model in a unit has a special rule.

The Independent Character Special Rules rule simply reinforces the way the ability of a special rule propagates through a unit that is heterogeneous with respect to a special rule.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The Special Rules rule requires that a special rule has something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".

In the case of Hit & Run, we have already identified that something to be the dependent adjectival clause ("that contains at least one model with this special rule"). Not only is the clause worded the same as Stubborn but it also works to the same effect (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit). We are simply dealing with the same specified kind of conferring from model to unit that we are dealing with in the case of Stubborn.

In the case of Fleet, not only do we lack the requisite dependent adjectival clause (i.e. something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule") but we have a dependent adjectival clause that prohibits the conferring of the ability of the special rule of the model to the unit unless all models in the unit have that rule, which nullifies the rule entirely.

#############################

Okay. So far so good. These are the results one would expect based on our discussion of the 3 man unit of Crisis Suits.

But what happens in the case of a rule like Objective Secured?

Objective Secured: All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.

In the case of Objective Secured, the troop unit has the special rule but since there is no dependent adjectival clause "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)" the special rule does not confer the Objective Secured ability to the Independent Character. The models comprising the troop unit still have the special rule and the ability of the special rule, but the Independent Character does not get the Objective Secured ability since the Special Rules rule was not satisfied. So if only the Independent Character is in range of an objective then it cannot take control of the objective away from non Objective Secured units.

The FAQ merely validates what I and several others have been arguing for quite some time now.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

In short, Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Golden Legion Task Force rules.

Special rules that are written along the lines of Stubborn allow the abilities of special rules to confer beyond the models that have the special rules on their datasheet. If they aren't written along the lines of Stubborn the abilities of the special rules stay locked to the models that have the special rules on their datasheet.

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

I will point one thing out here that all of us probably missed....

Adeptus Custodes don't actually have deep strike and the formation doesn't grant them deep strike.
It is for units that deep strike from the formation.

The only unit in the formation that actually has deep strike, is the Contemptor Dreadnought, which I feel pretty safe to say you cannot attach an IC onto.
Meaning that the original question is actually pointless to discern an answer too.

Ceann wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

I will point one thing out here that all of us probably missed....

Adeptus Custodes don't actually have deep strike and the formation doesn't grant them deep strike.
It is for units that deep strike from the formation.

The only unit in the formation that actually has deep strike, is the Contemptor Dreadnought, which I feel pretty safe to say you cannot attach an IC onto.
Meaning that the original question is actually pointless to discern an answer too.

What are you talking about? The Custodian Guard Squad have Deep Strike on their Army List Entry.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
Another quick question, would attaching an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force, would the unit scatter 2d6 when deep striking, or would it still get the 1d6 scatter?

I will point one thing out here that all of us probably missed....

Adeptus Custodes don't actually have deep strike and the formation doesn't grant them deep strike.
It is for units that deep strike from the formation.

The only unit in the formation that actually has deep strike, is the Contemptor Dreadnought, which I feel pretty safe to say you cannot attach an IC onto.
Meaning that the original question is actually pointless to discern an answer too.

What are you talking about? The Custodian Guard Squad have Deep Strike on their Army List Entry.

I must have missed that when I just looked at the book, oh well.
By all means continue then.

To answer the OP . . .

1) You can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot.



2) If you attach an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force the unit would scatter 2d6 when Deep Striking. The unit effectively loses the Deep Striking formation bonus when the IC is attached since all models in the unit would need to have the bonus to be able to Deep Strike with 1d6 scatter.

The reason for this is clarified in the FAQ . . .



If you need further help understanding why then read the spoiler below . . .

col_impact wrote:
To answer the OP . . .

1) You can take Voldus in any Imperium Army in an HQ slot.

Spoiler:

Grand Master Voldus and Roboute Guilliman are new Army List Entries that can be included in any Armies of the Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction.

2) If you attach an IC to a Golden Legion Task Force the unit would scatter 2d6 when Deep Striking. The unit effectively loses the Deep Striking formation bonus when the IC is attached since all models in the unit would need to have the bonus to be able to Deep Strike with 1d6 scatter.

The reason for this is clarified in the FAQ . . .

Spoiler:

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn.

If you need further help understanding why then read the spoiler below . . .

Spoiler:

Let's dig in and fully explicate why an Independent Character attached to a unit in a Golden Legion Task Force does not get the Golden Legion Task Force unit's special rules.

Consider the case of a 3 man unit of Crisis Suits which I think sheds light on the issues involved. You purchase Vectored Retro-thrusters for one of the models giving that model Hit & Run and Fleet. So basically you have a model that has Hit & Run and Fleet, but you don't have a unit that has Hit & Run and Fleet.

The thing to determine is if the ability of the special rule on that model confers to the unit or not.

Hit & Run reads "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . can" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will confer to the unit and the unit will have the Hit & Run ability.

Fleet reads "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will not confer to the unit and no model in the unit will have the Fleet ability.

The use of the indefinite article in "a unit" means that "a unit" itself is being used in a non-specific, general way. If all one says is "a unit" then nothing is being specified at all about "a unit". "A unit" can refer to a unit as described on an Army List Entry or it can refer to a unit with an Independent Character attached to it or it can refer to a unit that is shooting, or a Deathmark unit, etc. "A unit" could refer to a unit that has no models with a special rule.

But, we aren't just dealing with "a unit". We are dealing in the case of Hit & Run with "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule". "That contains at least one model with this special rule" is an dependent adjectival clause modifying "a unit". The adjectival clause provides information that specifies how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit. When we go to define what kind of unit the special rule will confer to, if we are dealing with a unit that has at least one model with the special rule . . . can" then the Hit & Run ability will confer from the model or models with the special rule to the unit. Since this dependent adjectival clause matches Stubborn's dependent adjectival clause in wording and function (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit) we can consider a Special Rule that has a clause to this effect to be "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".

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So now let's consider the case of an Independent Character attached to 3 man unit of Crisis Suits where one model has Hit & Run and Fleet.

Essentially it works out the same way as when only one model in a unit has a special rule.

The Independent Character Special Rules rule simply reinforces the way the ability of a special rule propagates through a unit that is heterogeneous with respect to a special rule.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The Special Rules rule requires that a special rule has something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".

In the case of Hit & Run, we have already identified that something to be the dependent adjectival clause ("that contains at least one model with this special rule"). Not only is the clause worded the same as Stubborn but it also works to the same effect (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit). We are simply dealing with the same specified kind of conferring from model to unit that we are dealing with in the case of Stubborn.

In the case of Fleet, not only do we lack the requisite dependent adjectival clause (i.e. something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule") but we have a dependent adjectival clause that prohibits the conferring of the ability of the special rule of the model to the unit unless all models in the unit have that rule, which nullifies the rule entirely.

#############################

Okay. So far so good. These are the results one would expect based on our discussion of the 3 man unit of Crisis Suits.

But what happens in the case of a rule like Objective Secured?

Objective Secured: All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.

In the case of Objective Secured, the troop unit has the special rule but since there is no dependent adjectival clause "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)" the special rule does not confer the Objective Secured ability to the Independent Character. The models comprising the troop unit still have the special rule and the ability of the special rule, but the Independent Character does not get the Objective Secured ability since the Special Rules rule was not satisfied. So if only the Independent Character is in range of an objective then it cannot take control of the objective away from non Objective Secured units.

The FAQ merely validates what I and several others have been arguing for quite some time now.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

In short, Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Golden Legion Task Force rules.

Special rules that are written along the lines of Stubborn allow the abilities of special rules to confer beyond the models that have the special rules on their datasheet. If they aren't written along the lines of Stubborn the abilities of the special rules stay locked to the models that have the special rules on their datasheet.

Perfect, thank you! So I can run my formation with voldus at the lead, I'm good with that.