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It seems we have some new and contradictory information about Maugan Ra's origins. While he was thought by most to be from Altansar originally, the new Jain Zar book actually has Asurmen and Jain Zar finding him in what later became Biel Tan, the library and centre of science and philosophy (yes, really) where he was a mild-mannered librarian and caretaker who wasn't much of a fighter (yes, really).

Also, his 'Harvester of Souls' moniker has a different implication to what we thought - it came not from being a murder machine, but actually from the fact that he was the one who invented/discovered the Infinity Circuit.

I guess it's always the quiet ones, right?

Didn't read the book yet but.

While I don't know the whole facts it's worth to consider Phoenix lords (and Exarchs too) are often named for the original wearer of the Armor whose personality is often in charge.

Maybe there is a small chance the 1st Maugan Ra personality built the basic Dark reaper Path (being the original Biel tan Librarian) but the 2nd or 3rd was in fact the strongest one and belonged to some Warrior from Altansar?

P.S: seems they also changed the origin of Infinity Circuit as it was implied or told Iyanded did it 1st on it's own suplement.

I presume that given Jain Zar's cameo in the Asurmen book we'll be seeing a Maugan Ra-centric book next in the line-up?

I think Karandras or Irilyth would be better but Maugan seems the most likely.

Yeah, there seems to be a connected story of how Asurmen found and trained each Phoenix Lord running through the series (at least the 'in the past' segments). Maugan Ra is likely going to be next, whoever's after that depends on who makes an appearance in Maugan Ra's book.

I honestly enjoyed this book a lot. Just the young Jain Zar and Asurmen sections on their own were fun, a short story or series of vignettes focused solely on their journeys together would actually be very enjoyable.

Still I think the best scene in the book is most likely Jain Zar's conversation with Khaine.

Also reading this together with Darker Road does begin to make it look like the position of Head Farseer of Ulthwe was cursed by Eldrad till he got it, since this is the second time there's been a female leader of the Farseer Council who disagrees with a younger Eldrad and winds up dead by the end of the story. Suspicious.

EDIT: I think a Karandas story would be truly interesting since it would at last deal with our dear Fallen Phoenix in some more detail. I doubt Irilyth will get one, sadly, since the book does constantly make reference to the 'Six Primary Aspects of Khaine' to explain why it only focuses on the Phoenix Lords we know. Still if it did include Irilyth eventually that would be nice.

By day he's a mild mannered Librarian. But by night he is, THE HARVESTER OF SOULS

Today's issue, find out how Maugan Ra defeated an entire tyranid fleet!

 Anemone wrote:
I honestly enjoyed this book a lot. Just the young Jain Zar and Asurmen sections on their own were fun, a short story or series of vignettes focused solely on their journeys together would actually be very enjoyable.

Still I think the best scene in the book is most likely Jain Zar's conversation with Khaine.

Also reading this together with Darker Road does begin to make it look like the position of Head Farseer of Ulthwe was cursed by Eldrad till he got it, since this is the second time there's been a female leader of the Farseer Council who disagrees with a younger Eldrad and winds up dead by the end of the story. Suspicious.

EDIT: I think a Karandas story would be truly interesting since it would at last deal with our dear Fallen Phoenix in some more detail. I doubt Irilyth will get one, sadly, since the book does constantly make reference to the 'Six Primary Aspects of Khaine' to explain why it only focuses on the Phoenix Lords we know. Still if it did include Irilyth eventually that would be nice.

Yeah, the Khaine argument was great. I never thought I'd get to read the immortal god/demigod equivalent of a deadbeat dad getting called out on his nonsense by his daughter.

I honestly thought they were going to fight at the start of that scene. It was very well built-up.

Indeed, it was really good. Honestly the scene where the Avatar kneels down so it can pull Jain Zar into an almost hug would make a very evocative scene, particularly with both of them touching foreheads. It'd make a great art piece.

But yeah I am glad that it seems the Phoenix Lords and Khaine as a whole are gaining greater importance and morphing into a more substantial subplot, with their own books series semi-forming and the Warhammer Community faction focus on Craftworld Eldar focusing heavily on the Phoenix Lords and Avatar.

These stories sound like great fodder for graphic novels... I think the young phoenix lords might be the closest the setting has to super heroes, so it seems a fitting format.

Any idea of such a thing is in the pipeline?

Sadly I don't think so, but I agree with the sentiment. There are a lot of moments in Jain Zar which I think, if rendered visually, could be quite striking.

We've got the touching crests with an Avatar of Khaine whilst they have a familial spat, we've got a young Jain Zar and Asurmen hugging in a very surrogate-father-daughter sense when she expresses her fear that her anger could harm herself or others and more. I enjoy the depiction of the past Phoenix Lords as more mortal individuals with their own emotional states, it contrasts with their present selves nicely.

To be honest I would really just love a book about young Asurmen and Jain Zar during their search of the old Eldar Core Worlds, having filler-like adventures and growing their connection and path as they travel a post-apocalyptic hellscape of Daemons and Eldar-survivours. The Post-Fall Eldar Empire has never really been investigated much, and by the Great Crusade almost any evidence of Eldar in the Eye of Terror seems muted at best, but Jain Zar gives us things like Eldar Hippies who brainwash people with love into serving Slaanesh and Eldar Ghosts eternally locked in combat with each other.

 Robin5t wrote:
It seems we have some new and contradictory information about Maugan Ra's origins. While he was thought by most to be from Altansar originally, the new Jain Zar book actually has Asurmen and Jain Zar finding him in what later became Biel Tan, the library and centre of science and philosophy (yes, really) where he was a mild-mannered librarian and caretaker who wasn't much of a fighter (yes, really).

Also, his 'Harvester of Souls' moniker has a different implication to what we thought - it came not from being a murder machine, but actually from the fact that he was the one who invented/discovered the Infinity Circuit.

I guess it's always the quiet ones, right?

This is where the wording becomes important. In the Iyanden supplement, it is stated that Mehlendri Silversoul and Bonesinger Ivaril Brightshard are the ones that adapted Iyanden's infinity circuit into a permanent soul reservoir.

So strictly speaking that is not quite the same as inventing infinity circuits...

I withhold opinion until I get my copy of the book.

Finished listening to the audiobook. Some idle thoughts (spoilers ahead):

1. Jain Zar's confrontation with the Avatar was indeed a highlight of the book. Something I've gathered from this and the Asurmen entries is that it's the Exarchs who are actually deeper down the Khaine rabbit-hole than the Phoenix Lords.

2. I actually took a shine to Maensith. One of my favourite parts was her trying to figure out a way to stab Jain Zar in the back, only for the Phoenix Lord to read her mind and wag her finger to her and saying "Nuh, uh uh."

3. I was somewhat bemused by the fact that when in the aftermath of the Fall when Asurmen and Jain Zar met with some cultists who were part of what was clearly a scam religion that the reader used a fake Indian accent to voice the dialogue of the cultists. Otherwise Emma Gregory did a fairly solid job.

4. It is somewhat unclear to me precisely when the "contemporary" part of this book takes place. Is it sometime after the Horus Heresy or after the War of the Beast? TBA implied that Eldrad was the head honcho Seer of Ulthwé at the time, whereas in this book he's still the FNG of the Seer Council. It is also mentioned that the Imperium fought a devastating war with the Orks, though I suppose that could also refer to the first Ullanor Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy.

5. This would be the second time (first being that Valedor book written by Guy Haley) in which we see a Howling Banshee Exarch who was actually a dude.

6. Somewhat disappointed that in spite of the Phoenix Lords being the Eldar equivalents to the Primarchs that Jain Zar basically "conceded" so quickly to that first Keeper of Secrets in the book. Yes, a Phoenix Lord barring real good dice rolls will in all likelihood get stomped by a Greater Daemon, but given how the fluff has Space Marine Chapter Masters going through the Avatar like nothing...

7. Oh, and speaking of which, chalk up another ignominious death for an Avatar.

Agiel wrote:
Finished listening to the audiobook. Some idle thoughts (spoilers ahead):

1. Jain Zar's confrontation with the Avatar was indeed a highlight of the book. Something I've gathered from this and the Asurmen entries is that it's the Exarchs who are actually deeper down the Khaine rabbit-hole than the Phoenix Lords.

2. I actually took a shine to Maensith. One of my favourite parts was her trying to figure out a way to stab Jain Zar in the back, only for the Phoenix Lord to read her mind and wag her finger to her and saying "Nuh, uh uh."

3. I was somewhat bemused by the fact that when in the aftermath of the Fall when Asurmen and Jain Zar met with some cultists who were part of what was clearly a scam religion that the reader used a fake Indian accent to voice the dialogue of the cultists. Otherwise Emma Gregory did a fairly solid job.

4. It is somewhat unclear to me precisely when the "contemporary" part of this book takes place. Is it sometime after the Horus Heresy or after the War of the Beast? TBA implied that Eldrad was the head honcho Seer of Ulthwé at the time, whereas in this book he's still the FNG of the Seer Council. It is also mentioned that the Imperium fought a devastating war with the Orks, though I suppose that could also refer to the first Ullanor Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy.

5. This would be the second time (first being that Valedor book written by Guy Haley) in which we see a Howling Banshee Exarch who was actually a dude.

6. Somewhat disappointed that in spite of the Phoenix Lords being the Eldar equivalents to the Primarchs that Jain Zar basically "conceded" so quickly to that first Keeper of Secrets in the book. Yes, a Phoenix Lord barring real good dice rolls will in all likelihood get stomped by a Greater Daemon, but given how the fluff has Space Marine Chapter Masters going through the Avatar like nothing...

7. Oh, and speaking of which, chalk up another ignominious death for an Avatar.

It's set somewhere close-ish to the Path of the Eldar series, at least, given that Maensith was a side-character in Path Of The Outcast.

On her capitulating to the Greater Daemon - the book did state that the daemon was basically invincible to attack due to where they were at the time. Given that we actually saw her take down N'Kari fairly handily later on, we know she can wreck a Keeper of Secrets if they aren't protected by plot-ex-machina.

Agiel wrote:


7. Oh, and speaking of which, chalk up another ignominious death for an Avatar.

Alright, spoil her up, let's hear how it went down this time.

You know, I don't even remember how it died. That's how unceremonious it was.

Was it off-page? I think it might have died off-page.

After talking all that smack, too.

It happened off-page, and I believe it was said to have been smushed by a ginormous Squiggoth.

Also it occurred to me that the Asurmen book came out almost two years ago. One wonders if Gav Thorpe wrote that back then as a one-shot to start with BL looking at the numbers before deciding to go ahead with a series. If not, well, let's hope it doesn't take close to another two years to see the next book in the series.

A squiggoth? Man that is embarrassing.

I miss the Avatar from Shadowpoint.

Why do the avatars just die like this? Why must GW do this?

Maensith - ohh my fav character in the Path novels - what happens to the lovely Corsair captain??

Nothing bad I hope - she was great.

thanks

 Robin5t wrote:
It seems we have some new and contradictory information about Maugan Ra's origins. While he was thought by most to be from Altansar originally, the new Jain Zar book actually has Asurmen and Jain Zar finding him in what later became Biel Tan, the library and centre of science and philosophy (yes, really) where he was a mild-mannered librarian and caretaker who wasn't much of a fighter (yes, really).

Also, his 'Harvester of Souls' moniker has a different implication to what we thought - it came not from being a murder machine, but actually from the fact that he was the one who invented/discovered the Infinity Circuit.

I guess it's always the quiet ones, right?

Wait....so like Orion Pax -> Optimus Prime?

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
It seems we have some new and contradictory information about Maugan Ra's origins. While he was thought by most to be from Altansar originally, the new Jain Zar book actually has Asurmen and Jain Zar finding him in what later became Biel Tan, the library and centre of science and philosophy (yes, really) where he was a mild-mannered librarian and caretaker who wasn't much of a fighter (yes, really).

Also, his 'Harvester of Souls' moniker has a different implication to what we thought - it came not from being a murder machine, but actually from the fact that he was the one who invented/discovered the Infinity Circuit.

I guess it's always the quiet ones, right?

Wait....so like Orion Pax -> Optimus Prime?

Yeah. Like that, but with more bodies.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maensith - ohh my fav character in the Path novels - what happens to the lovely Corsair captain??

Nothing bad I hope - she was great.

thanks

Agiel wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maensith - ohh my fav character in the Path novels - what happens to the lovely Corsair captain??

Nothing bad I hope - she was great.

thanks

Spoiler:

The book more or less describes how it was she fell into the Corsairs, so you have nothing to worry about on that front.

Sweet - thanks for the info

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Why do the avatars just die like this? Why must GW do this?

Worf Effect.

The only time I've heard of an Avatar being a legitimate hardcase is Valedor I think (can't remember which one). Basically, there's an Eldar world that's been overrun by Tyranids. Eldar fly by and notice there's still something going on on the surface. Avatar's still knocking around krumpin heads like nothing has happened.

More of that please

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The only time I've heard of an Avatar being a legitimate hardcase is Valedor I think (can't remember which one). Basically, there's an Eldar world that's been overrun by Tyranids. Eldar fly by and notice there's still something going on on the surface. Avatar's still knocking around krumpin heads like nothing has happened.

More of that please

That's Valedor. And my favourite part just because for once an Avatar is done right. Arguably it's okay in the Eldar Path books because it doesn't do anything spectacular but isn't killed by a random Ork either.

Yeah we definitely need more of that.

The bit I like in the Path books is that when the Avatar's being awoken it has a marked effect on all of the residents of that Craftworld. They start getting tetchy and snappy, anger bubbling up from within them until the only way to release it is to go to war. Really fitting depiction of the shard of a war god waking within a society of psychically attuned beings I thought

I loved the part in this book when Jain Zar and Khaine are staring each other down, it looks like it's going to turn into a fight, and all the other aspect warriors in the room read the mood then immediately skedaddle.

Sure, we'll fight Orks by the million, tangle with Space Marines and even duke it out with the forces of Chaos, but getting involved in a familial dispute between Khaine and his demigoddess daughter? Nope, for some things, the War Mask just isn't enough.

The OP is incorrect. Maugan Ra is found in the pocket webway realm of Biel-Tanigh, which is a library of esoteric knowledge. That is different from the craftworld ship of Biel-tan, which is already mentioned as being a trading ship in the pre-Fall section of the book Asurmen. The two are distinct and separate places.