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Link: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/05/17/steve_rogers_joins_hydra_in_the_comics_but_the_story_s_more_complicated.html


f you’re at all a follower of superhero stories—movies, comics, whatever—it has probably come to your attention that somehow or other Captain America has recently turned into a crypto-Nazi, and that fans are understandably outraged about it. That’s absolutely true, but what’s happening in the stories in question, and the way they’re being received, is more complicated than it seems.

The premise of “Secret Empire,” the current Marvel Comics storyline whose effects will be felt in most of the company’s superhero comics this year, is that Steve Rogers, a.k.a. Captain America—the compassionate, bully-bashing, blue-eyed hero played by Chris Evans in Marvel’s recent movies—has turned out to be a murderous fascist. “Secret Empire” is the payoff to several years’ worth of buildup across a handful of comic book series, mostly written by Nick Spencer, but the gist of it is this: The past year of Spencer’s Captain America: Steve Rogers has detailed how (thanks to a deus-ex-machina gizmo) the character’s history has been retroactively changed. In the newly altered reality, he has always been a sleeper agent of the fascist organization Hydra. At the beginning of a new miniseries actually called Secret Empire, he reveals his true goals, betrays his heroic allies, and helps Hydra launch its totalitarian conquest of America.

That’s an enormously upsetting turn of events—it’s supposed to be. It’s the cliffhanger at the beginning of a serial. But rather than drawing closer to see what happens next, the reaction of a lot of superhero fans has been to recoil in disgust. The heel-turn that’s transformed Steve Rogers into an oppressor of the weak is not just alarming but, somehow, unspeakable: a betrayal not just of readers’ expectations but of their needs. It’s been interpreted as if the story, or Spencer himself, were overtly endorsing fascism. Marvel’s boneheaded spin on it—downplaying the idea that “Secret Empire” is especially political, and suggesting that comics store employees wear Hydra T-shirts—has mostly just fed the flames; early this month, they took the remarkably odd step of issuing a statement to reassure fans that everything will ultimately turn out all right.

But what, exactly, is it about Steve Rogers that makes this particular plot such an affront? (It’s hard to imagine the same torrent of fury in response to a story about, say, Green Arrow or Iron Man turning evil.) There’s an argument that depicting the character as having been involuntarily transformed into something very much like a Nazi is intrinsically beyond the pale because his creators, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, were Jewish. That’s not entirely convincing, especially since Kirby drew (and probably plotted) a 1965 story in which a mind-controlled Rogers is shown sieg-heiling Hitler himself.

It’s probably more accurate to say that there’s a substantial number of fans who think of Rogers—the star of Captain America comics for most of their 75-year history—as a sort of secular holy figure. In a long-running era of flawed heroes and antiheroes and broken heroes, Rogers has almost always been written as a genuinely good, entirely earnest guy: the indomitable spirit of liberty, a defender of the afflicted and oppressed, more uncompromised and virtuous than any real-life political actor. He gets to give inspirational speeches about how you can “plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world—’no, you move.’” He even gets to punch Nazis in the face (in fact, he was punching Hitler on the cover of his very first appearance, published several months before Pearl Harbor). And now he’s suddenly become another monster who wants to see the world burn, at a moment when American politics is not short of those monsters.

As it happens, since before Captain America: Steve Rogers began its current run, Spencer has been also writing a series starring a genuinely heroic, red-blooded Captain America. It’s called Captain America: Sam Wilson. Wilson, formerly known as the Falcon (Anthony Mackie’s character in the movies), has been a part of Captain America’s cast for close to fifty years. He is as patriotic a totalitarian-smacking American as anyone could wish, and he was also Marvel’s first African-American superhero.

A few years ago, Wilson inherited the name and the shield of Captain America from Rogers (who had been transformed into a frail old man; long story, but aren’t they all?). Ever since then, he’s been in the position of trying to defend a public that refuses to accept him, even while it demands that he act as a figurehead. In one sequence, a younger black superhero stops a robbery, but the police robots that arrive at the scene beat and arrest him. When community rage about the incident boils over, Wilson is in the impossible bind of being expected to say or do something that quiets the streets but doesn’t deny the protesters’ well-warranted fury.

As soon as Rogers came back, rejuvenated (and secretly an agent of Hydra)—in an issue whose cover depicted Wilson punching him in exactly the same pose that Rogers punched Hitler—Captain America: Sam Wilson started hammering home the idea that, no matter how heroically Wilson acts, the people he’s protecting won’t see him as legitimate. Neither do a lot of readers. The title of the first collected volume of CA: Sam Wilson is “Not My Captain America”—a phrase disgruntled fans have used to dismiss his series. CA: Sam Wilson—with the same writer as CA: Steve Rogers (and comparable artists), telling the same story from a different angle—has been selling roughly half as many copies each issue as Steve Rogers, damningly underscoring the point of both.

It’s a blunt and very political point, but Captain America has never not been political. Even the title “Secret Empire” comes from a 1974 sequence that ended with a thinly disguised Richard Nixon being unmasked as a supervillain and killing himself in the Oval Office. The incident that sets off Secret Empire involves an equally unsubtle metaphor: the construction of a wall around the entire Earth that’s meant to keep out dangerous aliens (the kind from outer space), but ends up locking out the world’s defenders.

If you go into Secret Empire and the two Captain America series thinking of it as Rogers’ story – in which Rogers is the “real” Captain America and Wilson is the temp who’s been holding down the job – then yes, Evil Cap is a horrifying development. But if you read Spencer’s three-pronged narrative as Sam Wilson’s story, it looks very different. It becomes the story of an impeccably qualified black hero whose time in the spotlight is abruptly cut off by the return of an old white man who once had his position, and of a public so thirsty for the moral certainty of the Greatest Generation that they can’t see the nightmarish perversion of it that’s right in front of them until it’s too late.


I don't really follow the comics, but I am sure people here do.

I would love to hear more about the discussion around this heel-turn. Thoughts?

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It's certainly not new news, and it is all because of Space Magic (Cosmic Cube Tinkering).

It will be interesting - I suppose - to see how it all ends up, and to see if Marvel sticks to its word of 'no more major events for a long time after this one' promise.

   
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Sounds like this is where they got the idea for the Hydramatrix on Agents of Shield.

 
   
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So Marvel is trolling their readers by demonstrating there's more demand for a corrupt, white fascist than for an upright, qualified, black man? Seems like playing with fire.

Will there be a Ms. Marvel run about her emails?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 20:24:53


   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So Marvel is trolling their readers by demonstrating there's more demand for a corrupt, white fascist than for an upright, qualified, black man? Seems like playing with fire.

But man do I feel that this point is extremely relevant:

If you go into Secret Empire and the two Captain America series thinking of it as Rogers’ story – in which Rogers is the “real” Captain America and Wilson is the temp who’s been holding down the job – then yes, Evil Cap is a horrifying development. But if you read Spencer’s three-pronged narrative as Sam Wilson’s story, it looks very different. It becomes the story of an impeccably qualified black hero whose time in the spotlight is abruptly cut off by the return of an old white man who once had his position, and of a public so thirsty for the moral certainty of the Greatest Generation that they can’t see the nightmarish perversion of it that’s right in front of them until it’s too late.


There is an extremely real perception in some areas of the US that millenials are "morally bankrupt" or that they "lack moral fiber" and that we're entitled or spoiled and that we need to be shown a thing or two by "The Greatest Generation" and that the injustices that some decry aren't real.

It completely glosses over the whole internment of Japanese-Americans and the gross mistreatment of African Americans in the military and civilian life.
   
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I have to admit, at first blush it seems like the comic is a pretty bold piece of pop criticism. However, I have not read it myself so I could be very, very, very wrong.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So Marvel is trolling their readers by demonstrating there's more demand for a corrupt, white fascist than for an upright, qualified, black man? Seems like playing with fire.

But man do I feel that this point is extremely relevant:

If you go into Secret Empire and the two Captain America series thinking of it as Rogers’ story – in which Rogers is the “real” Captain America and Wilson is the temp who’s been holding down the job – then yes, Evil Cap is a horrifying development. But if you read Spencer’s three-pronged narrative as Sam Wilson’s story, it looks very different. It becomes the story of an impeccably qualified black hero whose time in the spotlight is abruptly cut off by the return of an old white man who once had his position, and of a public so thirsty for the moral certainty of the Greatest Generation that they can’t see the nightmarish perversion of it that’s right in front of them until it’s too late.


There is an extremely real perception in some areas of the US that millenials are "morally bankrupt" or that they "lack moral fiber" and that we're entitled or spoiled and that we need to be shown a thing or two by "The Greatest Generation" and that the injustices that some decry aren't real.

It completely glosses over the whole internment of Japanese-Americans and the gross mistreatment of African Americans in the military and civilian life.



Complaining about young people being shiftless, entitled hoodlums is as old as wiener dog hunting. What makes it worse today is that the millennial a seem to have grown up doing exactly what is always asked of the young by society, but through no agency of their own been excluded from the rewards. They know their opportunities, their lives, are worse than their parents', and if they complain they are dismissed as whiners and brats. The hostility aimed at them is kicking icing on the cake when it's down. And then adding insult sprinkles to injuries that aren't covered because they're all part time unpaid interns.


   
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My issue isn't that they had him Steve Rogers go bad for a story but that it has been going on for a long time over multiple crossovers. For example he is behind all the bad stuff in Civil War 2. Someone died? Turns on Steve got there earlier and killed them. Something stolen? Steve got there earlier and stole it. And so on and so on.

The other issue is that even for comics it seems somewhat pointless. The Cosmic Cube can rearrange anything at anytime for any reason. ATM, IIRC, the Cosmic Cube is a little girl and this timeline is supposedly the 'real' one and that the good guys used the Cube to make the Allies win WWII.

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I have no problem with Sam Wilson being Captain America. He *earned* that right by being the guy who served the longest with Cap and came the closest to matching his ideals. Giving the mantle to Sam Wilson made way more sense than having the Punisher claim it when Cap died, which is a thing that really happened. And it was terrible. Until Bucky spent several pages beating the gak out of Frank Castle. That part was nice.

TL;DR

Hydra!Cap is terribad; Falocn!Cap is awesomesauce and deserves more love from the readers.

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Doesn't this grand reality tinkering shenanigans go on all the time in comics ?

The usual point is to drive up sales via inane amount of cross-overs and some interwebs 'outcry' publicity which their ever predictable fanbse will provide almost on demand

That said that whole Dr Manhattan is god thing was a lark




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 Ahtman wrote:
My issue isn't that they had him Steve Rogers go bad for a story but that it has been going on for a long time over multiple crossovers. For example he is behind all the bad stuff in Civil War 2. Someone died? Turns on Steve got there earlier and killed them. Something stolen? Steve got there earlier and stole it. And so on and so on.


Steve did virtually nothing during the recent Civil War. He straight up Stopped killing people and stealing things while it was going down because he was worried the psychic guy who saw the future would out him if he tried anything.

 
   
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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Doesn't this grand reality tinkering shenanigans go on all the time in comics ?


Yes, pretty much!

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

The usual point is to drive up sales via inane amount of cross-overs and some interwebs 'outcry' publicity which their ever predictable fanbse will provide almost on demand


Yes again, and with the shrinking fanbase for print comics, the studios try harder and harder, and oftentimes do go for the 'crazy' in order to generate as much publicity (and sales) as possible.

Having said that, I'm certainly interested all this one turns out.

I mean, I won't be buying any issues or anything crazy like that - but I'll check the news sites!

   
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I like the story arc and as a non-American, it isn't really that outrageuos that Cap turns bad.

But what bothers me, is his ideals changed from "Kill and do bad stuff when necessary for the good of all" (pre-Secret Empire) to "Annihilate an entire city because there are rebels inside" (now)

   
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 Alpharius wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Doesn't this grand reality tinkering shenanigans go on all the time in comics ?


Yes, pretty much!


But like any storytelling convention it can be done well and it can be done poorly. This is the latter.

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Fair point!

It has the feel of 'shock for shock's sake'...

   
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And again, apparently this result isn't from Cosmic Cube tinkering. Until it is, of course. It certainly feels like they're making it up as it goes along.

Which is why I feel like this storyline is starting to resemble a certain clone storyline from the same company. He's a clone! No, he's the clone! No...in fact, HE'S the clone.

The big two seem utterly consumed with universe tinkering, everything-you-know-is-a-lie reveals, etc.

Just tell good stories.


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Telling good stories is surprisingly hard!

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 gorgon wrote:
And again, apparently this result isn't from Cosmic Cube tinkering.


Kobik is the Cosmic Cube (sort of) given sentience and form, and Kobik is the one that reverted him to Captain America with part of that reversion being that he was a HYDRA Agent all along.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Isn't the current story that the Allies originally lost WWII, but used a cube to change reality so that they won and Cap was a good guy? So this current cube meddling just reset the original reality in which Cap was Hydra from the beginning. At least I think that's the story as of now. Quite the rabbit hole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/23 13:58:54


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 gorgon wrote:
Isn't the current story that the Allies originally lost WWII, but used a cube to change reality to where they won and Cap was a good guy and never Hydra? So this current cube meddling just reset the original reality where Cap was Hydra from the beginning.


Yes, but only Cap remembers the "original" (not really) timeline, where the Axis won the war and he is a Hydra agent. But... Spoilers below

Spoiler:

"Secret Empire #2" just revealed an old Steve Rogers helping a girl on the last page. There is obviously a lot more timeline fuckery going on. We'll see when this story arc concludes. I'm guessing they find the cube shards and rewrite reality again to the Status Quo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/23 14:01:24


   
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Man, time travel shenanigans are a pretty good indicator of bad writing. It rivals "it was all just a dream" for weaksauce.

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Agreed. Generally, if it involves time travel I can expect it to be crap!

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 Easy E wrote:
Agreed. Generally, if it involves time travel I can expect it to be crap!


HG Wells might have a word.

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Not time travel, just time lines, more like alternate realities. My guess is when the kid cube "fixed" Steve and made him young and Hydra with the memories of Hydra winning and the allies using their cube to rewrite the world, what the kid cube actually did was sort of swap our Captain America out with the one from said alternate world where Hydra won and this revealed old Steve is in fact the old Steve somehow back from whereever he was sent when the kid cube did her thing. He can come in and help save the day and they can fix stuff and not have to deal with a post brainwashed Steve who had killed a bunch of his friends and other good guys while Hydra.

 
   
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Comics are all about the status quo. Remember when Captain America died? Yeah. That didn't take. This won't either. The fact that comic book fans keep forgetting this is mind numbing.

Also this:

It’s been interpreted as if the story, or Spencer himself, were overtly endorsing fascism


... seems to be something that appears more and more. If you write something about people doing bad things, or like characters that are bad guys, then you are somehow endorsing/supporting/promoting the bad things they do, or believe in their causes.

It's utter horse gak, but it keeps coming up. Saw someone not long ago attacking a whole group for liking Darth Vader. Hell, even liking Star Destroyers was enough to get you labelled as a 'fascist' or a 'white supremacist'.

Finally this:

If you go into Secret Empire and the two Captain America series thinking of it as Rogers’ story – in which Rogers is the “real” Captain America and Wilson is the temp who’s been holding down the job – then yes, Evil Cap is a horrifying development. But if you read Spencer’s three-pronged narrative as Sam Wilson’s story, it looks very different. It becomes the story of an impeccably qualified black hero whose time in the spotlight is abruptly cut off by the return of an old white man who once had his position, and of a public so thirsty for the moral certainty of the Greatest Generation that they can’t see the nightmarish perversion of it that’s right in front of them until it’s too late.


There is an extremely real perception in some areas of the US that millenials are "morally bankrupt" or that they "lack moral fiber" and that we're entitled or spoiled and that we need to be shown a thing or two by "The Greatest Generation" and that the injustices that some decry aren't real.

It completely glosses over the whole internment of Japanese-Americans and the gross mistreatment of African Americans in the military and civilian life.


I don't think it does that at all. Again, comics abhor a change to the status quo. Anyone who didn't think Thor would go back to being Thor eventually, or that Sam would eventually go back to being Falcon, clearly hasn't read a comic. Ever.

People are far too quick to put motive onto creative works.

He made a good guy a Nazi? He must support Nazis!
He made a black character Captain America and then changed him back? He must hate black people!

Again, it's all horse gak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/26 03:18:43


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They are like sitcoms that way. No matter what craziness happens, we are all back to the status quo by the end of the episodes arc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/26 14:02:14


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HBMC: Keep in mind that superhero comics are pretty much the modern equivalent of ancient popular myths (morality tales and entertainment with varying levels of success at each), full of demigods and magic, so it is easy to see why people get wrapped up in them and fail to see the patterns. They identify with certain aspects and get touchy when viewpoints they disagree with show up. It's the same cycle that has been going on for thousands of years and is a smaller reflection of the same identification and struggles you see in politics and religion. Heck, the crossover is sometimes explicit! It is both manipulative and banal, as comics operate out of a profit motive, but also consistent with just about anything humans do. At least with comics, the believers are content to just verbally spar.

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 jmurph wrote:
HBMC: Keep in mind that superhero comics are pretty much the modern equivalent of ancient popular myths (morality tales and entertainment with varying levels of success at each), full of demigods and magic, so it is easy to see why people get wrapped up in them and fail to see the patterns. They identify with certain aspects and get touchy when viewpoints they disagree with show up. It's the same cycle that has been going on for thousands of years and is a smaller reflection of the same identification and struggles you see in politics and religion. Heck, the crossover is sometimes explicit! It is both manipulative and banal, as comics operate out of a profit motive, but also consistent with just about anything humans do. At least with comics, the believers are content to just verbally spar.


Agreed. There was a hilarious hissy fit of a thread in here when the whole "Cap is Hydra!" story first surfaced. Some people put way, way too much of their own identity into a fictional character.

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 feeder wrote:
 jmurph wrote:
HBMC: Keep in mind that superhero comics are pretty much the modern equivalent of ancient popular myths (morality tales and entertainment with varying levels of success at each), full of demigods and magic, so it is easy to see why people get wrapped up in them and fail to see the patterns. They identify with certain aspects and get touchy when viewpoints they disagree with show up. It's the same cycle that has been going on for thousands of years and is a smaller reflection of the same identification and struggles you see in politics and religion. Heck, the crossover is sometimes explicit! It is both manipulative and banal, as comics operate out of a profit motive, but also consistent with just about anything humans do. At least with comics, the believers are content to just verbally spar.


Agreed. There was a hilarious hissy fit of a thread in here when the whole "Cap is Hydra!" story first surfaced. Some people put way, way too much of their own identity into a fictional character.


Well as has been said it isn't always what is done but how it is done. As I've said I don't think they have done a very good job with this, storytelling wise. Look at something like this in Injustice where Superman becomes a bad guy and it is handled so much better than it is here.

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Injustice is an amazing story of the paramount of a superhuman being succumbing to the dark side.

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