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Half the Machinarium defected to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, and for the past 10,000 years have had free reign to develop technology however they may wish.

Not only are they free of the dictates of the loyal Ad-Mech that prevent innovation and research, but they also have no barriers to stealing and using or incorporating Xenos technology, developing artifical intelligence, or even being limited by ethical barriers when it comes to research and development, such as the use of living subjects. Added to that the fact that they can incorporate magic and Daemons into their technology, it seems a mystery to me (other than for gameplay balance purposes) as to why they're generally only ever on par with their loyalist cousins.

Yes, I get that they have less resources, but they still have literally planets full of raw materials and slaves, and have nothing stopping them taking technology from others. The Imperium has hardly advanced in 10,000 years, but that's because they're against the concept of innovation in general. What's Chaos' excuse? Why aren't they WAY ahead?

Poor writing by GW

They want the Marines to be the best of the best still

in some ways they ARE. the IoM for example never would have been able to construct the planet killer.

that said chaos tech has gone in sort of a differant path. focusing more on warpt echnology etc. so chaos has mostly focused on making deamon engines, and other such things utlizing the warp.

so chaos tech isn't more advanced or less advanced, it's DIFFERANT

Less ressources, madness, living in area were natural laws are suspended or bendable makes scientific endeavor difficult, competition from sorcery, even more constant state of war than the Imperium. Much lower population, much lower capacity to recover STC, no centralised node of education and technological development. These are my hypothesis on the subject.

[Insert here GW officially aproped lore excuse for a thematical/economical/and balance difference between the factions]

epronovost wrote:
Less ressources, madness, living in area were natural laws are suspended or bendable makes scientific endeavor difficult, competition from sorcery, even more constant state of war than the Imperium. Much lower population, much lower capacity to recover STC, no centralised node of education and technological development. These are my hypothesis on the subject.

None of these things prevent them from capturing and utilising Xenos tech. Also, there's plenty of Chaotic worlds that are stable and populous, and population and education in comparison to the Imperium doesn't really matter when the Imperium doesn't leverage or utilise those things themselves anyway, as they don't really try to innovate and only concentrate on dogma.

Yes, there's competition from sorcery, but I'm talking about the Dark Mechinarium here - people who rebelled largely so they could engage in tech-heresy. What have they been doing for the last 10,000 years? They can't even produce a slightly better Land Raider? I'm not asking for time travel - just anything to show that they've not been sat on their hands of millenia.

There's really no excuse for not being way more advanced than the IOM. They've come up with barely anything new since the Heresy apart from sticking daemons in existing stuff.

Why would any follower of Chaos care? That question is far different than "Why should they care". They should, but they don't.

Chaos followers are predicated on might makes right. The only thing that matters to any of them is that they are stronger than the people around them. They don't want the people around them to have better stuff. It makes being the king of their pile harder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hierophant wrote:

Yes, there's competition from sorcery, but I'm talking about the Dark Mechinarium here - people who rebelled largely so they could engage in tech-heresy. What have they been doing for the last 10,000 years?

Helrakes, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends.

Those not good enough? How about the Planet Killer or using actual Blackstone Fortresses instead of bolting guns to them like the Imperium did.

Less technologically advanced than the Imperium? The people of Q'sal would like to have a word with you...

There are a couple of things to consider here... For one, they haven't had 10000 years. Time works differently in the Warp.

For two, everything else also works differently in the warp... it's hard to be innovative when your tools keep spontaneously growing limbs and running off to attack the couch.

The Dark Mechanicus is more than likely is more technologically advanced than everyone else, but 1, they are not likely to share the good stuff, and 2, as a result of this dangerous technology they themselves probably fall prone to lots of workplace accidents. The Black Crusade rpg books talk about lots of cool chaos technology. The reason this stuff isn't seen across Chaos as a whole is because traitor forces don't necessarily work as a team. They are just as likely to attack another chaos faction as they are imperials, given certain situations.

You invent a cool new super weapon, and it is going to bring the Imperium to its knees.

To bad it mutated a mouth and devoured you, before going on a rampage and getting destroyed.

Or a jealous rival doesnt want you to have that kind of power and get that kind if glory, and sabotages it.

Same scenario, but he attacks you outright, and the weapon is damaged beyond use.

Or it mutates into uselessness, and the only thing it fires is a foul goop, which while disgusting, doesnt annihilate fleets.

The 2 reasons I'd justify this is:
1. The constant state of war within Chaos factions
2. The decentralisation of Heretek forces

Also you gotta consider that Chaos is in a constant state of civil war. All the 4 gods play the great game - not considering minor warp entities. On top of that you have independent realms of: Daemon Princes, Daemon Forges, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst the Hereteks are not hampered by the red tape of the IoM, they are hampered by the constant need to feed into the war economy. From the look of recent fluff, they meet these demands by focusing most of their work on daemon engines.

Also, unlike the AdMech, the Hereteks have no singular administrative body. Ever since the heresy, its very much been every man, woman and thing to their own. Any R&D would largely be insular, not being fed to the wider chaos forces as a whole and jealously guarded.

So yeah, decentralisation and warlordism would hamper any progress imo. Even with alien tech in the mix.

Warbands vs chapters.

Organization and logistics are NOT a priority to chaos. Look what happened to Abbadon after Cadia, greatest victory for Abbadon ever, his spear ready to thrust straight to terra and slaying the false emperor. Then his spear goes "WHEEE" and scatters to the four winds because chaos does not care in the slightest about his goals, it cares about chaos and causing more. You get recruits once you manage to capture them or you've captured a world on your own. You don't get promoted to Terminator armor, you shiv the last owner and pry him out of it like a clam or salvage your own. How do you think they generally get and maintain tanks? At best they have a pact with a heretech who's also an agent of chaos with his own agenda.

Now you have chapters, so long as they're in favor with the Imperium they have regular resupply, recruiting and an entire order dedicated to maintaining their tech(and poking necrons).

That said, this all is rarely well represented in the game, as it's generally well equipped marines vs spikey marines with some demon stuff rather than the terrifying 10k old space marines who have fought together since the heresy vs the maybe half a millenia old veterans of the Imperium.

Well, I think its the other way around.
The Imperium is more advanced than Chaos.
Chaos have the old Landraider, no Landspeeders. They had no assault cannons (only recently Oblits got them).
Chaos relies on veterans using their old equipment, Cultists, Sorcerers and Daemons. Its a totally different world when compared with earth and mars.

Chaos = Disorder

IoM = Order

Where do you think advancement is possible?


Technology may have been invented on a "learning by doing" way of things , in pre-Emperor of Man times that is. Mankind on its way to the stars surely advanced based on sharing Information. Chaos....isn't really all about "working together for a better future"...

 1hadhq wrote:
Chaos = Disorder

IoM = Order

Where do you think advancement is possible?


Technology may have been invented on a "learning by doing" way of things , in pre-Emperor of Man times that is. Mankind on its way to the stars surely advanced based on sharing Information. Chaos....isn't really all about "working together for a better future"...

I was going to post something but this basically covers it. The real question is...why does chaos still exist after 10,000 years of getting their buts kicked by the combined resources of 1 million planets? + Why would tech go down in 10,000 years on 1 million planets?

For the same reason in Star Wars the Jedi always rule for centuries to millenia when in power while Sith rule never lasts longer then a couple decades: because this is a setting where "the bad side" is not only morally wrong, but also inherently self-destructive.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I was going to post something but this basically covers it. The real question is...why does chaos still exist after 10,000 years of getting their buts kicked by the combined resources of 1 million planets?

The Eye of Terror is easy to spawn-camp but also prevents you from destroying the other dude's Nexus.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Chaos = Disorder

IoM = Order

Where do you think advancement is possible?


Technology may have been invented on a "learning by doing" way of things , in pre-Emperor of Man times that is. Mankind on its way to the stars surely advanced based on sharing Information. Chaos....isn't really all about "working together for a better future"...

I was going to post something but this basically covers it. The real question is...why does chaos still exist after 10,000 years of getting their buts kicked by the combined resources of 1 million planets? + Why would tech go down in 10,000 years on 1 million planets?

Its because tzeentch is a dick.

epronovost wrote:
living in area were natural laws are suspended or bendable makes scientific endeavor difficult

Underrated answer.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Chaos = Disorder

IoM = Order

Where do you think advancement is possible?


Technology may have been invented on a "learning by doing" way of things , in pre-Emperor of Man times that is. Mankind on its way to the stars surely advanced based on sharing Information. Chaos....isn't really all about "working together for a better future"...

I was going to post something but this basically covers it. The real question is...why does chaos still exist after 10,000 years of getting their buts kicked by the combined resources of 1 million planets? + Why would tech go down in 10,000 years on 1 million planets?

Indeed. Because of environmental conditions (they are in another dimension after all) and massive infighting, they have difficulty developing tech, but they can build a fleet and logistical tail sufficient to rock the Imperium (you know the guys planning to fight them for TEN THOUSAND YEARS) . . . it doesn't make that much sense. Oh well.

As far as I'm concerned there were many good points raised in this thread.
For one the dark mech keep to themselves, even amongst themselves. So CSM, who are in the spotlight lorewise and on the tabletop, aren't privvy to much of their stuff.
Then there is the whole infighting and destroying their own creations before they are destroyed by them.

But I think the main reason is that the dark mech became largely obsessed with fusing the immaterium with the real world, aka daemon engines.
This would have been about as far detached from the knowledge they held as possible.
They'd have to learn about the nature of daemons and how to summon them and not become mechanical sock puppets.
So they had to learn all these dark arts and only then could they even begin researching how to fuse them.
Which in and of itself would be one hell of task, even without being beset on all sides by murderers and traitors.

Daemon engines as a technology is way ahead of anything the imperium could produce I'd say, but it took a very long time for the dark mech to get there.
Not mention that compared to quite literally making the impossible, possible, retrieving and working on/improving STC seems like a unworthy task.
They'd only be maintaining that sort of stuff as much as needed, if that, also resulting in forgetting how to operate conventional technology after a while.

AI also takes a back seat when you can infuse technology with an immortal living entity that is forced to do your bidding.
So yea, my take on why chaos tech sin't more advanced is basically tunnel vision on the part of the dark mech. Spiced with betrayal and daemons eating their slave labour.
Even though the tech they have is technically superior, it's all focused in one area.

Sure there are exceptions but they're not really part of the big picture.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Chaos = Disorder

IoM = Order

Where do you think advancement is possible?


Technology may have been invented on a "learning by doing" way of things , in pre-Emperor of Man times that is. Mankind on its way to the stars surely advanced based on sharing Information. Chaos....isn't really all about "working together for a better future"...

I was going to post something but this basically covers it. The real question is...why does chaos still exist after 10,000 years of getting their buts kicked by the combined resources of 1 million planets? + Why would tech go down in 10,000 years on 1 million planets?

Indeed. Because of environmental conditions (they are in another dimension after all) and massive infighting, they have difficulty developing tech, but they can build a fleet and logistical tail sufficient to rock the Imperium (you know the guys planning to fight them for TEN THOUSAND YEARS) . . . it doesn't make that much sense. Oh well.

Incidently this also answers why Cawl has seemingly succeeded where Fabius Bile has failed. Bile has to deal with rivals blowing up his lab every so often (Chaos can blame Abbaddon for the lack of Chaos Primarius Marines ) and it's REALLY hard to do genetics work when everything mutates around you. and why bother, appease Khrone, Nurgle etc and they'll just pump you up with chaos juice anyway

Their mechanicus is twisted, which is why we have Forgefiends and defliers. Technically, these are more advanced

 Novelist47 wrote:
The 2 reasons I'd justify this is:
1. The constant state of war within Chaos factions
2. The decentralisation of Heretek forces

Also you gotta consider that Chaos is in a constant state of civil war. All the 4 gods play the great game - not considering minor warp entities. On top of that you have independent realms of: Daemon Princes, Daemon Forges, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst the Hereteks are not hampered by the red tape of the IoM, they are hampered by the constant need to feed into the war economy. From the look of recent fluff, they meet these demands by focusing most of their work on daemon engines.

Also, unlike the AdMech, the Hereteks have no singular administrative body. Ever since the heresy, its very much been every man, woman and thing to their own. Any R&D would largely be insular, not being fed to the wider chaos forces as a whole and jealously guarded.

So yeah, decentralisation and warlordism would hamper any progress imo. Even with alien tech in the mix.

This is it. Most other people said so too with other valid points but this is the biggest one. It's every man for them self. The dark mechanicum isn't really an organization anymore than it is a title. There's no unity of members and no database that a Heretek can access if he wants to imitate a weapon that has been built a sector away. The Mechanicus on the other hand actually share sometimes and can access the information used by other forgeworld (that they choose not to kept for tgemselves), which can explain why the loyalists have grav guns on the tabletop while chaos doesn't. It's not a hard concept OP. In fact, I'm surprised chaos doesn't have crappier technology. Surprised the legions still have land raiders after all this time


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand, when they do innovate, they can come up with things like the idolater(?) Escort. It's made using Tau technology or something like that and it's supposed to be a powerful frigate/raider

It's worth mentioning that the adeptus mechanicus do their share of science and innovation too (the ordinatus for example and they can bend the rules by claiming something is implicit in design of an incomplete stc). It's just that when they do genuinely invent something new they're likely to seal it away in a vault rather than share it with the rest of the imperium for reasons that are frankly far less sensible than their dark counterparts.

Back in 2nd edition Crusade-era tech wasn't as advanced as 'contemporary' technology, which had slowly improved over 10,000 years, so the Chaos Marines were stuck with obsolescent gear. It used to be that things like jump packs, land speeders, and reliable plasma guns didn't exist during the Crusade and were later developments.

Now, of course, the game lore is that the Crusade and Heresy were more advanced and the current age is a fallen one, but they haven't really updated the Chaos codex accordingly, other than the addition of Raptors.

 Saber wrote:
Back in 2nd edition Crusade-era tech wasn't as advanced as 'contemporary' technology, which had slowly improved over 10,000 years, so the Chaos Marines were stuck with obsolescent gear. It used to be that things like jump packs, land speeders, and reliable plasma guns didn't exist during the Crusade and were later developments.

Now, of course, the game lore is that the Crusade and Heresy were more advanced and the current age is a fallen one, but they haven't really updated the Chaos codex accordingly, other than the addition of Raptors.

That's very interesting. I remember seeing some old artwork where the chaos marine backpack vents were being used as jump packs...
It was wierd, and it was official

 Novelist47 wrote:
The 2 reasons I'd justify this is:
1. The constant state of war within Chaos factions
2. The decentralisation of Heretek forces

Also you gotta consider that Chaos is in a constant state of civil war. All the 4 gods play the great game - not considering minor warp entities. On top of that you have independent realms of: Daemon Princes, Daemon Forges, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst the Hereteks are not hampered by the red tape of the IoM, they are hampered by the constant need to feed into the war economy. From the look of recent fluff, they meet these demands by focusing most of their work on daemon engines.

Also, unlike the AdMech, the Hereteks have no singular administrative body. Ever since the heresy, its very much been every man, woman and thing to their own. Any R&D would largely be insular, not being fed to the wider chaos forces as a whole and jealously guarded.

So yeah, decentralisation and warlordism would hamper any progress imo. Even with alien tech in the mix.

The constant warfare feeds into the lack of logistical supply.
The IoM has a million worlds to produce food, ammo, build tanks, recruit more soldiers, and harvest minerals/fuels.
Chaos doesnt.
Probably half of the dark mechanicum is figuring out how to supply the forces of chaos with limited materials. How to make sure CSMs dont run out of ammo. How to supply a thousand different patterns of IG equipment, piecemealed together. How to make new CSMs. Hence daemon engines(just piles of scrap animated with a daemon)

Dark Mech tech IS better than IoM, but given their circumstances, they end up using much of that advantage making up for their comparative lack of material.

 Saber wrote:
Back in 2nd edition Crusade-era tech wasn't as advanced as 'contemporary' technology, which had slowly improved over 10,000 years, so the Chaos Marines were stuck with obsolescent gear. It used to be that things like jump packs, land speeders, and reliable plasma guns didn't exist during the Crusade and were later developments.

Now, of course, the game lore is that the Crusade and Heresy were more advanced and the current age is a fallen one, but they haven't really updated the Chaos codex accordingly, other than the addition of Raptors.

Land Speeders and Land Raiders were recovered STC tech found well after the Horus Heresy. That's how the Imperium gets new tech, it doesn't improve or create new stuff, it scavenges for old, lost tech (mostly, anyways).

Hierophant wrote:
Half the Machinarium defected to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, and for the past 10,000 years have had free reign to develop technology however they may wish.

Not only are they free of the dictates of the loyal Ad-Mech that prevent innovation and research, but they also have no barriers to stealing and using or incorporating Xenos technology, developing artifical intelligence, or even being limited by ethical barriers when it comes to research and development, such as the use of living subjects. Added to that the fact that they can incorporate magic and Daemons into their technology, it seems a mystery to me (other than for gameplay balance purposes) as to why they're generally only ever on par with their loyalist cousins.

Yes, I get that they have less resources, but they still have literally planets full of raw materials and slaves, and have nothing stopping them taking technology from others. The Imperium has hardly advanced in 10,000 years, but that's because they're against the concept of innovation in general. What's Chaos' excuse? Why aren't they WAY ahead?

It can be handwaved away easily enough. One possibility is that due to a heavy reliance on the arcane (i.e. warp shenanigans, the daemonic, sorcery, psychic powers, etc), the forces of Chaos hasn't had a real need to.


Why worry about improving the engineering behind the Land Raider, when it'll eventually grow appendages and teeth to better kill with?