Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there was 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/21 12:17:28
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there was 10k Immortals no more, no less!
They probably would if the codex allowed more than 1000 at a time, recruitment wasn't​ near impossible (a lot of initiates don't survive) and geneseed wasn't in minimal supply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/21 09:23:25
Geneseed supply is the biggest problem to mass production of marines, and as such take several years from implantation to maturity, not to mention there is a pretty small age gap that the geneseed can be implanted.
The second, and equally important factor, is that these initiates are the best of the very best. A potential Initiate has skills at the level where they could take down an experienced, fully armed Tempestus Scion unarmed. It is why Space Marine Chapters recruit from death worlds, and even then they are only taking the best from them.
Any chapter even close to 1,000 marines is already "depleted". This is unfortunately one of the silliest little fluff things they ever introduced and kind of ruins the feel of the game from that perspective.
There was an article or discussion where they revealed that most chapters are probably closer to 2300-2500 at least if you include all personnel, initiates in the pipeline etc. The "1,000" number was just a guideline, etc.
Given the small size of a real chapter currently, it's not unfeasible to have any of the big chapters wiped out in a badly run campaign, etc.
Elbows wrote: Any chapter even close to 1,000 marines is already "depleted". This is unfortunately one of the silliest little fluff things they ever introduced and kind of ruins the feel of the game from that perspective.
There was an article or discussion where they revealed that most chapters are probably closer to 2300-2500 at least if you include all personnel, initiates in the pipeline etc. The "1,000" number was just a guideline, etc.
Given the small size of a real chapter currently, it's not unfeasible to have any of the big chapters wiped out in a badly run campaign, etc.
A company of 100 once you add flight crews, tech marines, drivers, gunners and support elements, chaplains, command, it could be getting on for 150 or more all in.
1000 line troops, not 1000 marines.
Also scouts are not counted and in theory you could have high hundreds in various stages of testing, training, augmentation from fresh recruits raw and human to those scout marines ready to graduate to battle brother status.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/21 22:54:31
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Elbows wrote: Any chapter even close to 1,000 marines is already "depleted". This is unfortunately one of the silliest little fluff things they ever introduced and kind of ruins the feel of the game from that perspective.
There was an article or discussion where they revealed that most chapters are probably closer to 2300-2500 at least if you include all personnel, initiates in the pipeline etc. The "1,000" number was just a guideline, etc.
Given the small size of a real chapter currently, it's not unfeasible to have any of the big chapters wiped out in a badly run campaign, etc.
A company of 100 once you add flight crews, tech marines, drivers, gunners and support elements, chaplains, command, it could be getting on for 150 or more all in.
1000 line troops, not 1000 marines.
Also scouts are not counted and in theory you could have high hundreds in various stages of testing, training, augmentation from fresh recruits raw and human to those scout marines ready to graduate to battle brother status.
You'd think there would be at least a few Chapters abusing this- 1,000 Marines and 30,000 scouts.
Rippy wrote: They don't have the geneseed or armament to achieve that, EmpNortonII
that said some chapters have been noted as having "bigger then useal" scout companies. ultramarines and raven guard are noted examples.
One has a 11th company. Second scout.
The one with thr fight off a minor warp deamon to pass training and be clensed.
High fail rate so I believe they have a 11th company of scouts in various stages of training.
Also on scouts.
Yes you may have say 100 -200 that deploy as scout marines. That seems fair.
You have the ones on earlier phase training, augmentation, and those fresh recruits who are starting out new from selection.
So that could be a good few hundred in various stages that are not yet ready to deploy actively yet.
Not included but you have those doing the selection trials to and that's likely part of the scout companies remit also.
So there handling everything probbly from the first selection phase to the black carpace drilling for power armour plugs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 17:35:18
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
One of the many instances where 40K would benefit greatly from the "add a zero or two" fix to all their numbers.
100 to a squad
1000 to a company
10,000 to a chapter
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Anfauglir wrote: One of the many instances where 40K would benefit greatly from the "add a zero or two" fix to all their numbers.
100 to a squad
1000 to a company
10,000 to a chapter
Uh, or Squads could just stay at 10, and you could add other units in to the Company, like say a Platoon. Heck and then a 'Force' if you want them to be different. Then bring back the Force Commander.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 22:47:38
Hopefully if Robute puts out a new edition of his codex that's exactly what will happen. Other forces could get away with an across the board stealth numbers increase. But SM have had so much(possibly to much) attention and detail given to there chapter structure that upping there numbers would require a big fluff event.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 23:21:09
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hopefully if Robute puts out a new edition of his codex that's exactly what will happen. Other forces could get away with an across the board stealth numbers increase. But SM have had so much(possibly to much) attention and detail given to there chapter structure that upping there numbers would require a big fluff event.
honestly, I think chapters would just be better off having their company numbers increased, space marine companies do seem to be working after all. and the problem with going "a company is now 500 men" is that the space marine battle company has long been sort of the target structurte to build towards
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Anfauglir wrote: One of the many instances where 40K would benefit greatly from the "add a zero or two" fix to all their numbers.
100 to a squad
1000 to a company
10,000 to a chapter
Uh, or Squads could just stay at 10, and you could add other units in to the Company, like say a Platoon. Heck and then a 'Force' if you want them to be different. Then bring back the Force Commander.
One of John Blanche's pages of concept sketches, from 1990-ish when they introduced the current idea of companies being identified by colours, groups them into three battalions of three companies. That related back to the 1st edition Space Marine army list where Space Marine forces were built up in threes; three detachments (of 40 Marines, for a Tactical Detachment; 20 marines for other infantry) to a company, three companies to a battalion, three battalions to a regiment (plus support elements at each command level). A Chapter (i.e a Legion, since that game was set in the Heresy/Scouring era) had multiple regiments.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Uh, or Squads could just stay at 10, and you could add other units in to the Company, like say a Platoon. Heck and then a 'Force' if you want them to be different. Then bring back the Force Commander.
I like this idea more the more I think about it. Have them be a 'strike force' or 'task force' and give them specific goals in conjunction with the company, or send them away from the company as a distinct unit for special duties, such as the decapitation operations marines are described as taking on, or attaching forces from the 1st,10th, or reserve companies to other companies.
Different chapters could handle it differently too: maybe the Ultramarines have a formalized structure of force divisions in each company, where members of different companies might recognize that they both were members of Reserve Force Orpheus when they served in the 9th company; while the duties of an Imperial Fists Captain would include assigning squads to specific forces in order to tailor them to the campaign at hand, with the only permanent members being those fallen marines who's names are etched on a wall somewhere.
Anfauglir wrote: One of the many instances where 40K would benefit greatly from the "add a zero or two" fix to all their numbers.
Like where else? Planetary populations is the one I see mentioned a lot, in comparison to our own planet. If that's to what you refer, consider that our world population is estimated to be below 1 billion until around 200 years ago, after which its grown in a grossly exponential manner and the planet is disastrously overpopulated. Sure, 5 million planet-wide might not seem that much to us today, but when you take that into consideration you'll realise that whatever number is given the sustainable population of that world.
Once you take that into account then all other numbers make more sense.
100 to a squad
1000 to a company
10,000 to a chapter
Apart from the 100 to a squad thing, you're talking about HH Legions (before the numbers were reworked to be 100k and not 10k.
If would be happy to see such numbers being brought back by Guilliman. He's already in charge of everything, the splitting to dilute his own power makes no sense. But just accept that 1000 is PLENTY to get the job done in the fluff. Does it make sense? Absolutely, considering that its make believe and Marines can do the things Marines can do. They aren't human, they don't need 30 men to take a position, they need 1 Marine with a full magazine and the Urge to Purge.
If you want 10k marine chapters, give them a new name.
1 - Space Marine 10 - Squad, led by Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant 100 - Company, led by Company Captain 1000 - Chapter, led by Chapter Master 10, 000 - ???, led by Primarch or [Insert Title]
Let's definitely not have platoons and battalions and the usual stuff. These are special forces guys, I don't want to have them organised along the same lines as IG, with sub-divisions of 40 marines. Let's just have multiples of 10. It works out very nicely like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/23 16:12:04
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Uh, or Squads could just stay at 10, and you could add other units in to the Company, like say a Platoon. Heck and then a 'Force' if you want them to be different. Then bring back the Force Commander.
The actual unit name/titles can be whatever you want. They can even be chapter/parent chapter specific, if you want. I used squad/company/chapter for the simplicity of demonstrating what adding a zero to the numbers would look like. The result is instantaneous: much better within the setting.
Like pretty much everywhere else, lol. The size and scale of battles/campaigns alone are quite a big, glaring example. Especially when you compare them to our world wars, which, by 40K standards, are primitive medieval skirmishes (until you look at the numbers...).
Planetary populations is the one I see mentioned a lot, in comparison to our own planet. If that's to what you refer, consider that our world population is estimated to be below 1 billion until around 200 years ago, after which its grown in a grossly exponential manner and the planet is disastrously overpopulated. Sure, 5 million planet-wide might not seem that much to us today, but when you take that into consideration you'll realise that whatever number is given the sustainable population of that world.
Our world within the setting would be considered very backwater, rudimental, sparsely populated, sheltered, etc, with the quality of life for majority of population being rather high. Remember, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. And mass overpopulation, pollution, very low quality of life for majority of Imperial citizens, etc. Point is, anything that could happen or has happened on our world should barely register on 40K's galactic stage.
Apart from the 100 to a squad thing, you're talking about HH Legions (before the numbers were reworked to be 100k and not 10k.
No I'm not. I'm saying that adding a zero would improve the Chapters. I would similarly improve the Legions by giving them a zero, too. It's a very simple concept that I've used as an example, nothing more.
But just accept that 1000 is PLENTY to get the job done in the fluff. Does it make sense? Absolutely, considering that its make believe and Marines can do the things Marines can do. They aren't human, they don't need 30 men to take a position, they need 1 Marine with a full magazine and the Urge to Purge.
But... I don't have to just accept it. Even with an added zero, Marine numbers would be still be tiny on a grander military resource scale. Having them do the things they do in the fluff (like take entire planets, etc) would still be ridiculously silly and implausible. It's not a total, perfect fix. It's simply an example I used to show just how much the writers struggle with the sheer mathematical scale of their mass, never-ending galactic uber-war. And how adding a simple zero to their numbers would make things laughable without taking away any sense of their specialness or eliteness.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Let's definitely not have platoons and battalions and the usual stuff. These are special forces guys, I don't want to have them organised along the same lines as IG, with sub-divisions of 40 marines. Let's just have multiples of 10. It works out very nicely like that.
Special Forces are still generally organized similar to regular units, just different sizes and missions.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Uh, or Squads could just stay at 10, and you could add other units in to the Company, like say a Platoon. Heck and then a 'Force' if you want them to be different. Then bring back the Force Commander.
The actual unit name/titles can be whatever you want. They can even be chapter/parent chapter specific, if you want. I used squad/company/chapter for the simplicity of demonstrating what adding a zero to the numbers would look like. The result is instantaneous: much better within the setting.
Fair enough, a 100 man Squad just came across as odd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/23 18:30:49
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hopefully if Robute puts out a new edition of his codex that's exactly what will happen. Other forces could get away with an across the board stealth numbers increase. But SM have had so much(possibly to much) attention and detail given to there chapter structure that upping there numbers would require a big fluff event.
honestly, I think chapters would just be better off having their company numbers increased, space marine companies do seem to be working after all. and the problem with going "a company is now 500 men" is that the space marine battle company has long been sort of the target structurte to build towards
That also breaks any links to company in other units.
Real world 80-120 strong.
Guard have a company of 3-4 platoons so about 100-120
Plus 100 man company makes up a easy decimal system, 10 , 100.
If you want to enlarge chapters maybe up to say 20 companies' and keep thr first elite or add a elite devastator, centurian company for heavy firepower, top 6-7 now battle, 9 or so reserve and primus companies, last few scouts in various stages of training and such.
Now a chapter stands at 2000, 200 elites, 6-700 line troops, 8-900 reserves, maybe 1000 scouts in various stages of training from start to end with 2-300 scouts who are deployment ready and fully augmented.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all out wars etc.
Take a depleted chapter, keep fighting various conflicts while already under strength and sustain losses faster than the scouts become Marines = depleted chapter.
I imagine that isn't hard to do in the worst places of the Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/25 02:03:54
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all-out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there were 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
They said there can be a 1000 Adeptus Astartes, but they never said how many Neophytes a Chapter can have.
I don't think many chapters are depleted just the vast majority that is very critical to Terra and the surrounding area is because well resources become tighter during a war. Especially transporting new recruits to scout squads especially.
WE have no idea how many Astartes are made per a time, If anything it would be overseen by the companies apothecaries and captains, per company oversees their own scout squads I would assume as the scout company I doubt that the scout company is limited to just a hundred.
Though we can keep discussing how big a chapter. I want to know what idiot was like "Lets deploy all these astartes here." And then puts them all in one pot.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all-out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there were 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
They said there can be a 1000 Adeptus Astartes, but they never said how many Neophytes a Chapter can have.
I don't think many chapters are depleted just the vast majority that is very critical to Terra and the surrounding area is because well resources become tighter during a war. Especially transporting new recruits to scout squads especially.
WE have no idea how many Astartes are made per a time, If anything it would be overseen by the companies apothecaries and captains, per company oversees their own scout squads I would assume as the scout company I doubt that the scout company is limited to just a hundred.
Though we can keep discussing how big a chapter. I want to know what idiot was like "Lets deploy all these astartes here." And then puts them all in one pot.
actually they never said how Many Marines can be in a chapter persay. reading between the lines of the 7th edition codex, what the codex Astartes SAYS is how many men each company shall consist of, with the exception of the 10th, which does not have alimit on personal. the armory, librarius, also do not count. (this means a chapter that is partiuclarly healthy could have a considerable amount of additional marines in the form of large numbers of scouts, honor guard, Librarians and or tech marines) the Ultramarines are noted as having a partiuclarly large scout marine company and honor guard. the raven guard for having a lot of scouts. presumably the Imperial fists may have more tech marines then average. or more space marines running their fleet
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all-out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there were 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
They said there can be a 1000 Adeptus Astartes, but they never said how many Neophytes a Chapter can have.
I don't think many chapters are depleted just the vast majority that is very critical to Terra and the surrounding area is because well resources become tighter during a war. Especially transporting new recruits to scout squads especially.
WE have no idea how many Astartes are made per a time, If anything it would be overseen by the companies apothecaries and captains, per company oversees their own scout squads I would assume as the scout company I doubt that the scout company is limited to just a hundred.
Though we can keep discussing how big a chapter. I want to know what idiot was like "Lets deploy all these astartes here." And then puts them all in one pot.
actually, they never said how Many Marines can be in a chapter per say. reading between the lines of the 7th edition codex, what the codex Astartes SAYS is how many men each company shall consist of, with the exception of the 10th, which does not have a limit on personal. the armory, librarius, also do not count. (this means a chapter that is particularly healthy could have a considerable amount of additional marines in the form of large numbers of scouts, honor guard, Librarians and or tech marines) the Ultramarines are noted as having a particularly large scout marine company and honor guard. the raven guard for having a lot of scouts. presumably, the Imperial fists may have more tech marines then average. or more space marines running their fleet
You must have gotten that from my thread I had a while back... Oh wait I did have a thread about that :
Asherian Command wrote: One of the most common things I have seen is that people often say that it is impossible for a space marine to only have a thousand astartes. Which I agree with.
So the purposes of this thread are debate whether a Space Marine Truly has more than a thousand. And this thread will be used for reference for any debate that might occur from it.
This will also list what space marine doctrine is and how they are commonly deployed to demystify the whole idea that space marines are deployed on the frontlines like they were in the Great Crusades.
*Authors Note: these are estimations and numbers*
According to the Codex Lore on the Ultramarines Chapter a very common chapter to use for Examples like these:
There are:
Spoiler:
Manpower/Organization HeadQuarters and Staff
Chapter Master staff
Marneus Calgar
27 Honour Guard Astartes
1 Land Raider (Maximus)
1,700 Chapter Equerries (Chapter Serfs) and Servitors
Chaplain Cassius
total (Including Pilots: 2): 31
Armory
Fennias Maxim, Master of the Forge
27 Techmarines
95 Tech-Servitors
52 Main Battle Tanks (multiple types) (We don't know what these are)
25 Predators (2 Per) (50)
8 Vindicators (2 per) (16)
9 Whirlwinds (2 per) (18)
12 Land Raiders (2 per) (24)
14 Gunships (Stormtalons and Stormravens) (19?)
24 Centurion warsuits (24)
19 Land Speeders (38)
Assault Bikes and Attack Bikes
Master of the Fleet: Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, an Astartes of the Ultramarines Chapter and Hero of Macragge, has been made the Master of the Ultramarines Chapter Fleet by Marneus Calgar
3 Battle Barges (usually A Space Marine Commander on Board) (3)
15 Strike Cruisers (Usually a Space Marine Commander) (15)
20 Escorts (Usually a Space marine Commander) (20)
35 Thunderhawks
Accordingly, there are Thunderhawk Pilots usually two per: (70)
Total: 118*
*estimation gained from Codex and models. (Space marines leave a commander on board the Ships, as space marines also pilot thunderhawks)
According to the Codex there are usually 10 Scout Squads, but sometimes there are 20, as scout squads are often either squad of 10 or 20 scouts per squad.. or sometimes it just says SCOUTS, it is reasonable to say that the chapter has
The Scout Company still has
1 Command Squad,
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)
Total: 207 (With Dreadnoughts 209)
Veteran Company
Company Captain
Chaplain
Command Squad
97 veterans
3 Dreadnoughts
Total: 107
Grand Total: 1653 without Dreadnoughts. With Dreadnoughts: 1671
it is impossible to see the chapter going down to only a thousand per a chapter as that would severely handicap the whole chapter.
This list also does not include the Tyrannic War Veterans which the Ultramarines Do have.... A thousand battle brothers are more of a symbol, of just how different the Current Space Marines are compared to their Great Crusade Counterparts.
(Taken From Codex Space Marine)
Doctrine:
According to the Codex Astartes, Space Marines are meant to be the ones that fall upon their prey's leadership, striking down the enemy war leaders instead of attacking the front line and assault forces. The Space marines are drop troopers, they are deployed into the heart of the enemies logistics and central command to deal with the enemy leaders. They are not meant to be the Imperial Guard or Imperial Army. They are equal to the modern day special forces, deploying to deal with threats but are not meant to serve a frontline battle role. But they can be deployed to do so. Space Marines also do wear camo armor as it is detailed in the codex Astartes to do so. (Codex Space Marine, Forge World Red Scorpions)
Also in the codex it also heavily implies that space marines do not worship the emperor unless otherwise noted.*
It is a Complete myth that space marines fight in the frontlines of Combat.
*canon conflicts are bound to happen, various sources say different things on the matter of space marines religious side. There is a popular myth that space marines are warrior monks when they are according to the lore soldiers, not warriors. As the Deception is seen in many of the Black Library books, marking the difference between a Soldier and a Warrior in 40k lore.
Warning: More Information will be added including weapon specs for bolters and power armor. Taken from IvanTiH and several threads. This thread will serve as a source for those to use in debates used.
If you wish to submit thread discussions on these matters please feel free to do so.
Sources:
Coming Soon.....
It is fascinating though how space marines constantly are slaughtered. Or thrown to the dogs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/25 04:57:07
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I remember reading somewhere that a Chapter was limited to 1,000 Full Battle Brothers, but that techmarines/serfs/scouts so on did not count to that number. I.E. The vehicle crews for some heavily armored chapters would still not count towards the 1000.
Rysgame wrote: I remember reading somewhere that a Chapter was limited to 1,000 Full Battle Brothers, but that techmarines/serfs/scouts so on did not count to that number. I.E. The vehicle crews for some heavily armored chapters would still not count towards the 1000.
This is correct, you are allowed, per the Codex, 9 companies of 100 marines organised into 10 squads of 10. On top of that 900, you are also permitted 10 Captains, each with a command squad of 5 (4 Company veterans who can include Company Champion, Banner Bearer, company veterans, or replace 1 with an Apothecary so a squad of 4 and 1 officer, and 1 senior Veteran Sergeant to act as the Captain's right hand), so between the 10 companies that's an additional 50-60 marines for a high of 960. Then you have The other command and auxiliary officers do not count towards this number, these being the Chapter Master, Honour Guard, all Chaplains, all Librarians, all Apothecaries and all Techmarines. That leaves 40 marines unaccounted for. I'd assume that these are Scout Squad Sergeants. Scout Sergeants are full battle brothers and so it stands to reason they would be included in the number. 40 Scout sergeants means a potential 400 scouts at any one time at full strength.
Then you hav the unaccounted marines, that don't make up the 1000. They are permanent vehicle crew, such as Thunderhawk pilots and strike cruiser commanders, Rhino drivers, Dreadnoughts, etc. You also have then unlimited scouts, although in the field organised in squads of 10. Plus then you have all the non-astartes personnel to do th menial tasks.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all-out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there were 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
They said there can be a 1000 Adeptus Astartes, but they never said how many Neophytes a Chapter can have.
I don't think many chapters are depleted just the vast majority that is very critical to Terra and the surrounding area is because well resources become tighter during a war. Especially transporting new recruits to scout squads especially.
WE have no idea how many Astartes are made per a time, If anything it would be overseen by the companies apothecaries and captains, per company oversees their own scout squads I would assume as the scout company I doubt that the scout company is limited to just a hundred.
Though we can keep discussing how big a chapter. I want to know what idiot was like "Lets deploy all these astartes here." And then puts them all in one pot.
actually, they never said how Many Marines can be in a chapter per say. reading between the lines of the 7th edition codex, what the codex Astartes SAYS is how many men each company shall consist of, with the exception of the 10th, which does not have a limit on personal. the armory, librarius, also do not count. (this means a chapter that is particularly healthy could have a considerable amount of additional marines in the form of large numbers of scouts, honor guard, Librarians and or tech marines) the Ultramarines are noted as having a particularly large scout marine company and honor guard. the raven guard for having a lot of scouts. presumably, the Imperial fists may have more tech marines then average. or more space marines running their fleet
You must have gotten that from my thread I had a while back... Oh wait I did have a thread about that :
Asherian Command wrote: One of the most common things I have seen is that people often say that it is impossible for a space marine to only have a thousand astartes. Which I agree with.
So the purposes of this thread are debate whether a Space Marine Truly has more than a thousand. And this thread will be used for reference for any debate that might occur from it.
This will also list what space marine doctrine is and how they are commonly deployed to demystify the whole idea that space marines are deployed on the frontlines like they were in the Great Crusades.
*Authors Note: these are estimations and numbers*
According to the Codex Lore on the Ultramarines Chapter a very common chapter to use for Examples like these:
There are:
[spoiler]Manpower/Organization HeadQuarters and Staff
Chapter Master staff
Marneus Calgar 27 Honour Guard Astartes 1 Land Raider (Maximus) 1,700 Chapter Equerries (Chapter Serfs) and Servitors Chaplain Cassius
total (Including Pilots: 2): 31
Armory
Fennias Maxim, Master of the Forge 27 Techmarines 95 Tech-Servitors 52 Main Battle Tanks (multiple types) (We don't know what these are) 25 Predators (2 Per) (50) 8 Vindicators (2 per) (16) 9 Whirlwinds (2 per) (18) 12 Land Raiders (2 per) (24) 14 Gunships (Stormtalons and Stormravens) (19?) 24 Centurion warsuits (24) 19 Land Speeders (38) Assault Bikes and Attack Bikes
Master of the Fleet: Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, an Astartes of the Ultramarines Chapter and Hero of Macragge, has been made the Master of the Ultramarines Chapter Fleet by Marneus Calgar 3 Battle Barges (usually A Space Marine Commander on Board) (3) 15 Strike Cruisers (Usually a Space Marine Commander) (15) 20 Escorts (Usually a Space marine Commander) (20) 35 Thunderhawks
Accordingly, there are Thunderhawk Pilots usually two per: (70) Total: 118* *estimation gained from Codex and models. (Space marines leave a commander on board the Ships, as space marines also pilot thunderhawks)
According to the Codex there are usually 10 Scout Squads, but sometimes there are 20, as scout squads are often either squad of 10 or 20 scouts per squad.. or sometimes it just says SCOUTS, it is reasonable to say that the chapter has The Scout Company still has 1 Command Squad, 1 Chaplain, 1 Captain, 2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)
Total: 207 (With Dreadnoughts 209)
Veteran Company
Company Captain Chaplain Command Squad 97 veterans 3 Dreadnoughts
Total: 107
Grand Total: 1653 without Dreadnoughts. With Dreadnoughts: 1671 it is impossible to see the chapter going down to only a thousand per a chapter as that would severely handicap the whole chapter.
This list also does not include the Tyrannic War Veterans which the Ultramarines Do have.... A thousand battle brothers are more of a symbol, of just how different the Current Space Marines are compared to their Great Crusade Counterparts.
(Taken From Codex Space Marine)
Doctrine:
According to the Codex Astartes, Space Marines are meant to be the ones that fall upon their prey's leadership, striking down the enemy war leaders instead of attacking the front line and assault forces. The Space marines are drop troopers, they are deployed into the heart of the enemies logistics and central command to deal with the enemy leaders. They are not meant to be the Imperial Guard or Imperial Army. They are equal to the modern day special forces, deploying to deal with threats but are not meant to serve a frontline battle role. But they can be deployed to do so. Space Marines also do wear camo armor as it is detailed in the codex Astartes to do so. (Codex Space Marine, Forge World Red Scorpions)
Also in the codex it also heavily implies that space marines do not worship the emperor unless otherwise noted.*
It is a Complete myth that space marines fight in the frontlines of Combat.
*canon conflicts are bound to happen, various sources say different things on the matter of space marines religious side. There is a popular myth that space marines are warrior monks when they are according to the lore soldiers, not warriors. As the Deception is seen in many of the Black Library books, marking the difference between a Soldier and a Warrior in 40k lore.
Warning: More Information will be added including weapon specs for bolters and power armor. Taken from IvanTiH and several threads. This thread will serve as a source for those to use in debates used.
If you wish to submit thread discussions on these matters please feel free to do so.
Sources:
Coming Soon.....
It is fascinating though how space marines constantly are slaughtered. Or thrown to the dogs.
I got a grand total of 1305, not including Dreadnoughts as these are Dreadnoughts not Astartes but that can be debated on. I'll explain what I did not count from your list
I did not count the 19 pilots for Stormtalon and Stormravens, as models show that these are piloted by Techmarines and so already included in the 27 Techmarine count.
I also did not count the 24 Centurion Warsuit pilots, as canonically these are hardware upgrades to Assault and Devastator marines and do not have dedicated pilots. They, like bikes, are handed out on an as-needed basis.
Land Speeders are likewise only pilots by Assault and 7th Company marines. Unlike Predators, they do not have a dedicated crew, so that's 38 gone as well. My count so far is 81 lower than yours.
I did count 1 Chief Libby, 5 Epistolaries, 9 Codicers and 10 Lexicanums, however, I did not count the 3 Neophytes as these are Neophytes and so likely exempt as with scouts. 84 lower than your total at this point.
For the Veteran, Battle and Reserve companies, I added 100 Marines (10 squads of 10), 5 (Command Squad max number), and 2 (Captain and Chaplain), getting 107, and multiplied this by 9 for the 9 companies. Note however you included 3 Dreadnoughts in the count towards 107 for the Veteran Company, so you are now an additional 3 ahead. My count is 87 lower than yours at this point.
I then added 20 for the 20 Scout Sergeants as an upper limit as you suggested, for the scout company, and then a further 7 to cover the 10th Company Captain, Chaplain and COmmand Squad.
I also didn't count the 200 scouts that you did, as these are specifically not included in the count. So that leaves me 287 lower than you.
I then added a further 1, as not listed here is the Reclusium numbers. Assuming there is only 10 chaplains, one for each company, that still leaves the Reclusiarch unaccounted for (2IC for the chaplains). This means I am a total of 286 lower than you.
Grand total, not including Dreadnoughts: 1305*
* Note there are still 52 MBTs with unknown crews.
This still leaves me 62 Marines unaccounted for compared to yours and I'm wondering where I'm missing them though.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/25 13:17:46
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
HexHammer wrote: It makes no sense that chapters constantly have depleted chapters if they have been in long battles or all-out wars etc.
I understand it takes long time to train new recruits to fully space marines, if I was in charge of a planet I would make initiates camps where recruits can undergo the basic stuff and only get rudimentary training, thus they are in waiting to be transferred to a chapter, bit like the Persians Immortals, there were 10k Immortals no more, no less!
To circumvent the law that chapters can't exceed 1k marines, they should make sacrificial chapters that will supply other chapters with manpower.
They said there can be a 1000 Adeptus Astartes, but they never said how many Neophytes a Chapter can have.
I don't think many chapters are depleted just the vast majority that is very critical to Terra and the surrounding area is because well resources become tighter during a war. Especially transporting new recruits to scout squads especially.
WE have no idea how many Astartes are made per a time, If anything it would be overseen by the companies apothecaries and captains, per company oversees their own scout squads I would assume as the scout company I doubt that the scout company is limited to just a hundred.
Though we can keep discussing how big a chapter. I want to know what idiot was like "Lets deploy all these astartes here." And then puts them all in one pot.
actually, they never said how Many Marines can be in a chapter per say. reading between the lines of the 7th edition codex, what the codex Astartes SAYS is how many men each company shall consist of, with the exception of the 10th, which does not have a limit on personal. the armory, librarius, also do not count. (this means a chapter that is particularly healthy could have a considerable amount of additional marines in the form of large numbers of scouts, honor guard, Librarians and or tech marines) the Ultramarines are noted as having a particularly large scout marine company and honor guard. the raven guard for having a lot of scouts. presumably, the Imperial fists may have more tech marines then average. or more space marines running their fleet
You must have gotten that from my thread I had a while back... Oh wait I did have a thread about that :
Asherian Command wrote: One of the most common things I have seen is that people often say that it is impossible for a space marine to only have a thousand astartes. Which I agree with.
So the purposes of this thread are debate whether a Space Marine Truly has more than a thousand. And this thread will be used for reference for any debate that might occur from it.
This will also list what space marine doctrine is and how they are commonly deployed to demystify the whole idea that space marines are deployed on the frontlines like they were in the Great Crusades.
*Authors Note: these are estimations and numbers*
According to the Codex Lore on the Ultramarines Chapter a very common chapter to use for Examples like these:
There are:
[spoiler]Manpower/Organization HeadQuarters and Staff
Chapter Master staff
Marneus Calgar
27 Honour Guard Astartes
1 Land Raider (Maximus)
1,700 Chapter Equerries (Chapter Serfs) and Servitors
Chaplain Cassius
total (Including Pilots: 2): 31
Armory
Fennias Maxim, Master of the Forge
27 Techmarines
95 Tech-Servitors
52 Main Battle Tanks (multiple types) (We don't know what these are)
25 Predators (2 Per) (50)
8 Vindicators (2 per) (16)
9 Whirlwinds (2 per) (18)
12 Land Raiders (2 per) (24)
14 Gunships (Stormtalons and Stormravens) (19?)
24 Centurion warsuits (24)
19 Land Speeders (38)
Assault Bikes and Attack Bikes
Master of the Fleet: Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, an Astartes of the Ultramarines Chapter and Hero of Macragge, has been made the Master of the Ultramarines Chapter Fleet by Marneus Calgar
3 Battle Barges (usually A Space Marine Commander on Board) (3)
15 Strike Cruisers (Usually a Space Marine Commander) (15)
20 Escorts (Usually a Space marine Commander) (20)
35 Thunderhawks
Accordingly, there are Thunderhawk Pilots usually two per: (70)
Total: 118*
*estimation gained from Codex and models. (Space marines leave a commander on board the Ships, as space marines also pilot thunderhawks)
According to the Codex there are usually 10 Scout Squads, but sometimes there are 20, as scout squads are often either squad of 10 or 20 scouts per squad.. or sometimes it just says SCOUTS, it is reasonable to say that the chapter has
The Scout Company still has
1 Command Squad,
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)
Total: 207 (With Dreadnoughts 209)
Veteran Company
Company Captain
Chaplain
Command Squad
97 veterans
3 Dreadnoughts
Total: 107
Grand Total: 1653 without Dreadnoughts. With Dreadnoughts: 1671
it is impossible to see the chapter going down to only a thousand per a chapter as that would severely handicap the whole chapter.
This list also does not include the Tyrannic War Veterans which the Ultramarines Do have.... A thousand battle brothers are more of a symbol, of just how different the Current Space Marines are compared to their Great Crusade Counterparts.
(Taken From Codex Space Marine)
Doctrine:
According to the Codex Astartes, Space Marines are meant to be the ones that fall upon their prey's leadership, striking down the enemy war leaders instead of attacking the front line and assault forces. The Space marines are drop troopers, they are deployed into the heart of the enemies logistics and central command to deal with the enemy leaders. They are not meant to be the Imperial Guard or Imperial Army. They are equal to the modern day special forces, deploying to deal with threats but are not meant to serve a frontline battle role. But they can be deployed to do so. Space Marines also do wear camo armor as it is detailed in the codex Astartes to do so. (Codex Space Marine, Forge World Red Scorpions)
Also in the codex it also heavily implies that space marines do not worship the emperor unless otherwise noted.*
It is a Complete myth that space marines fight in the frontlines of Combat.
*canon conflicts are bound to happen, various sources say different things on the matter of space marines religious side. There is a popular myth that space marines are warrior monks when they are according to the lore soldiers, not warriors. As the Deception is seen in many of the Black Library books, marking the difference between a Soldier and a Warrior in 40k lore.
Warning: More Information will be added including weapon specs for bolters and power armor. Taken from IvanTiH and several threads. This thread will serve as a source for those to use in debates used.
If you wish to submit thread discussions on these matters please feel free to do so.
Sources:
Coming Soon.....
It is fascinating though how space marines constantly are slaughtered. Or thrown to the dogs.
I got a grand total of 1305, not including Dreadnoughts as these are Dreadnoughts not Astartes but that can be debated on. I'll explain what I did not count from your list
I did not count the 19 pilots for Stormtalon and Stormravens, as models show that these are piloted by Techmarines and so already included in the 27 Techmarine count.
I also did not count the 24 Centurion Warsuit pilots, as canonically these are hardware upgrades to Assault and Devastator marines and do not have dedicated pilots. They, like bikes, are handed out on an as-needed basis.
Land Speeders are likewise only pilots by Assault and 7th Company marines. Unlike Predators, they do not have a dedicated crew, so that's 38 gone as well. My count so far is 81 lower than yours.
I did count 1 Chief Libby, 5 Epistolaries, 9 Codicers and 10 Lexicanums, however, I did not count the 3 Neophytes as these are Neophytes and so likely exempt as with scouts. 84 lower than your total at this point.
For the Veteran, Battle and Reserve companies, I added 100 Marines (10 squads of 10), 5 (Command Squad max number), and 2 (Captain and Chaplain), getting 107, and multiplied this by 9 for the 9 companies. Note however you included 3 Dreadnoughts in the count towards 107 for the Veteran Company, so you are now an additional 3 ahead. My count is 87 lower than yours at this point.
I then added 20 for the 20 Scout Sergeants as an upper limit as you suggested, for the scout company, and then a further 7 to cover the 10th Company Captain, Chaplain and COmmand Squad.
I also didn't count the 200 scouts that you did, as these are specifically not included in the count. So that leaves me 287 lower than you.
I then added a further 1, as not listed here is the Reclusium numbers. Assuming there is only 10 chaplains, one for each company, that still leaves the Reclusiarch unaccounted for (2IC for the chaplains). This means I am a total of 286 lower than you.
Grand total, not including Dreadnoughts: 1305*
* Note there are still 52 MBTs with unknown crews.
This still leaves me 62 Marines unaccounted for compared to yours and I'm wondering where I'm missing them though.
Reminder : I wrote that three to four years ago. Having done the math again, coming at your number, I realized you had not included thunder hawk pilots (2 per thunder hawks) and space commanders on naval vessels (Theorized)
It would not be impossible to think that the thunder hawks are not manned by the reserve companies as they would probably be dedicated to the position.
But again the point is not the number, in my summarization....
1000 Space Marines is more of a symbol than an actual credible number.
Which is true, if the chapters reserved themselves to only 1000 the chapter would long be dead and would not have the fighting strength to do anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/25 15:18:38
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
2250pts Darthex Legions
3500pts The United
