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Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Hello! I am going to an 8th Edition fantasy tournament (apparently still a thing) at another store 2 hours from me. Of course its been a while since I have played fantasy BUT I still have my painted high elves and they need to battle. Thoughts and criticisms please?

Archmage, shadows, lvl 4, book of toeth, talisman of preservation 320

Mage, lvl 2, beasts, dispel scroll 145
Noble, BSB, Great Sword, armor of destiny 149

Ellyrian Reavers (5) musician 90
Ellyrian Reavers (5) musician 90
Ellyrian Reavers (5) musician 90
Spearmen (35), full command 345

White lions (30), full command, banner of the world dragon 470

Bolt thrower 70
Bolt thrower 70
Bolt thrower 70
Eagle 50
Eagle 50
Frostheart Phoenix 240

2249

Thanks!

~Ice~
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Made in us
Been Around the Block




I like the list a lot! I assume no one is going to give you "the eye" at fielding 30 Lions with BotWD

My question would be:

- do you need essentially 5 (FIVE!) re-directors (3 Reavers, 2 Eagles)?
- Why the musician with the Reavers? Aren't they fast cav anyway?
- Only 2 combat units (Really strong ones... but only 2 + the monster) - Not sure how to fix that right now, but in 2500 pts you might yourself outnumbered.

Unless... your 5 redirectors are precisely BECAUSE of the low # of combat blocks? Anyway.. at this post just rambling.

Also, of course 8th edition lives! It's better than anything else out there!

Plus, I encourage you to ask this question over at Ulthuan.net - active and always answering questions.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Why the musician with the Reavers? Aren't they fast cav anyway?


You still get the +1 leadership when rallying from a feigned flight if you have a musician.

I think the spearmen could be replaced with silver helms if you have the model. But I guess the idea is to get mind razor or give them wild form?

Lots of re-directors here, which is excellent. It should let you position yourself in advantageous combats.

My only other idea is to replace the Archmage with Alarielle with high magic to give the White Lions a stacking ward save against mundane attacks and the obvious 2++ from the world dragon banner.

Other than just pure Frost Phoenix spam, this is a pretty standard 8th High Elf build. It should do well.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
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Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Why the musician with the Reavers? Aren't they fast cav anyway?


You still get the +1 leadership when rallying from a feigned flight if you have a musician.



You sir, are right! Forgot!


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Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Why the musician with the Reavers? Aren't they fast cav anyway?


You still get the +1 leadership when rallying from a feigned flight if you have a musician.

I think the spearmen could be replaced with silver helms if you have the model. But I guess the idea is to get mind razor or give them wild form?

Lots of re-directors here, which is excellent. It should let you position yourself in advantageous combats.

My only other idea is to replace the Archmage with Alarielle with high magic to give the White Lions a stacking ward save against mundane attacks and the obvious 2++ from the world dragon banner.

Other than just pure Frost Phoenix spam, this is a pretty standard 8th High Elf build. It should do well.


Thanks for the fast responses!

I don't have silver helms unfortunately. I have had good lunch hoard style with mind razor and that's my typical go to for the spearment. Wild form of course as well as you stated.

I like arriele a lot more with phoenix guard imho as the stack is so easy. They just don't do the damage I get from the lions. so much s6!

As for "redirectors" I find the eagles are better at hunting warmachines and obviously the cav is for redirecting.

I have some sword masters, a dragon, griffin, 4th bolt thrower, 2 chariots but that's really my only other choices.

~Ice~
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Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Minimaxed bunch of extra strong cheddar, on 20mm square bases, amongst others.

Your list is solid, solid to the point of being unfair; I don't like it one bit, but as its for a tournament, it is exactly what you need,

It's so squeezed out I couldn't improve it except in the abstract, it has all the must takes for maximum rules exploiting imbalance.

Anyway some nitpicks:

1. Noble BSB with greatsword is standard issue, but not good for tournaments. You will be facing other elves, maybe a lot of them. Halberd trades a point of strength for the re-roll to hit. You will be wounding elves on a 2+ anyway, greatsword is not 'wrong' far from it, but if he is in the white lion unit extra strength is not necessary except for theme, and we hate theme for today.

2. Scroll caddy. You are after the basic spell yes? Might you be better with a level 1? What would you buy with the spare points, more kitties?

This is just minor stuff though, the list itself is pretty tight. Only two larger considerations.

3. You are missing one of the High Elves best win buttons, the Reaver Bow. Not absolutely essential, but a good choice when you are already investing in bolt throwers.

4. Archmage is risky as you might not get the spells you want, and you might be better off having a Loremaster, and knowing what you are getting. Loremaster can have 4++, dispel scroll and Reaver Bow, and you can drop the second mage and buy something else. Dont have the book at hand to total up the saving but you should be able to get something substantial, especially if you trade in a bolt thrower.



n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Orlanth wrote:
Minimaxed bunch of extra strong cheddar, on 20mm square bases, amongst others.




I have to tell you, you made me spit my drink with that sentence. You have won today.

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Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




LiveWaaaaagh wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Minimaxed bunch of extra strong cheddar, on 20mm square bases, amongst others.




I have to tell you, you made me spit my drink with that sentence. You have won today.


Hey, at least he's not using high magic Alarielle.

That would be Blue Stilton territory.
   
Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 Orlanth wrote:
Minimaxed bunch of extra strong cheddar, on 20mm square bases, amongst others.

Your list is solid, solid to the point of being unfair; I don't like it one bit, but as its for a tournament, it is exactly what you need,

It's so squeezed out I couldn't improve it except in the abstract, it has all the must takes for maximum rules exploiting imbalance.

Anyway some nitpicks:

1. Noble BSB with greatsword is standard issue, but not good for tournaments. You will be facing other elves, maybe a lot of them. Halberd trades a point of strength for the re-roll to hit. You will be wounding elves on a 2+ anyway, greatsword is not 'wrong' far from it, but if he is in the white lion unit extra strength is not necessary except for theme, and we hate theme for today.

2. Scroll caddy. You are after the basic spell yes? Might you be better with a level 1? What would you buy with the spare points, more kitties?

This is just minor stuff though, the list itself is pretty tight. Only two larger considerations.

3. You are missing one of the High Elves best win buttons, the Reaver Bow. Not absolutely essential, but a good choice when you are already investing in bolt throwers.

4. Archmage is risky as you might not get the spells you want, and you might be better off having a Loremaster, and knowing what you are getting. Loremaster can have 4++, dispel scroll and Reaver Bow, and you can drop the second mage and buy something else. Dont have the book at hand to total up the saving but you should be able to get something substantial, especially if you trade in a bolt thrower.





Ok so if I went halberd and level 1 what does that 30 points really get me? I could trade an eagle for a 4th bolt thrower.

You really think the reaver bow is "a win button"?

THe loremaster built out is very close in points to the arch mage but mind razor/pit is sooo good with the book of hoeth.

You don't like the second mage at all?

~Ice~
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2019 ITC #1 Overall Best Admech
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Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Icelord wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Minimaxed bunch of extra strong cheddar, on 20mm square bases, amongst others.

Your list is solid, solid to the point of being unfair; I don't like it one bit, but as its for a tournament, it is exactly what you need,

It's so squeezed out I couldn't improve it except in the abstract, it has all the must takes for maximum rules exploiting imbalance.

Anyway some nitpicks:

1. Noble BSB with greatsword is standard issue, but not good for tournaments. You will be facing other elves, maybe a lot of them. Halberd trades a point of strength for the re-roll to hit. You will be wounding elves on a 2+ anyway, greatsword is not 'wrong' far from it, but if he is in the white lion unit extra strength is not necessary except for theme, and we hate theme for today.

2. Scroll caddy. You are after the basic spell yes? Might you be better with a level 1? What would you buy with the spare points, more kitties?

This is just minor stuff though, the list itself is pretty tight. Only two larger considerations.

3. You are missing one of the High Elves best win buttons, the Reaver Bow. Not absolutely essential, but a good choice when you are already investing in bolt throwers.

4. Archmage is risky as you might not get the spells you want, and you might be better off having a Loremaster, and knowing what you are getting. Loremaster can have 4++, dispel scroll and Reaver Bow, and you can drop the second mage and buy something else. Dont have the book at hand to total up the saving but you should be able to get something substantial, especially if you trade in a bolt thrower.





Ok so if I went halberd and level 1 what does that 30 points really get me? I could trade an eagle for a 4th bolt thrower.

You really think the reaver bow is "a win button"?

THe loremaster built out is very close in points to the arch mage but mind razor/pit is sooo good with the book of hoeth.

You don't like the second mage at all?


I disagree, I never leave home without a scroll caddy. Is true you can drop the extra level on him since all you want is the signature.

The biggest liability with the loremaster is just +2 to cast/dispel but you aren't guaranteed to get mindrazor on a lv4 either. Your call.

Personally I'd swap some eagles/reavers for min-sized units of silver helms. They're much more resilient to shooting and will clear other chaff for your own redirectors to do their job, and in a pinch they make great flankers (can't do that with reavers or risk giving in more CR than you get).

You have a single combat block (spearmen are nice only if you can get mindrazor on them) so you can't afford to have them redirected to turn 6.

Otherwise try a silver helm bus. Chuck in a mounted bsb and mount the archmage on a horse using high magic with some sort of MR. WLs can operate on their own and you have a second fast combat block.

With Phoenix support (not just the S decrease, it also removes one pip of armour piercing) a silver helm bus punches way above their weight for a core unit, especially with the increasing ward save from high magic.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Icelord wrote:

Ok so if I went halberd and level 1 what does that 30 points really get me? I could trade an eagle for a 4th bolt thrower.


That depends, you use it to help drop multiple stuff and find room for a second frozen chicken, or just add a couple more White Lions.


 Icelord wrote:

You really think the reaver bow is "a win button"?


It's a solid component of the win button. Bs6 heavy bolter in WHFB, what is there not to like, and its insanely cheap now. You can take a naked standalone hero for 95pts, who is to all intents and purposes a warmachine, though ideally you want to further tool him and give him another role. Or you can invest 25pts into a character you already need, in which case you are only really paying 25pts for the functionality. I put mine on the BSB if I dont take an extra hero, this drops his save to 5++ but he isnt really survivable anyway unless you dump High Magic into the unit..

As for what it brings, high accuracy sniper shots, and unlike other artillery this one is magical so it makes a mess of ethereal troops. On a Loremaster its not as accurate but then its only genuinely 25pts as a Loremasters primary roles of infantry general and toolbox caster offers room to use him as a bonus artillery. It is part of what makes Loremaster useful as a solo character.

I wouldnt include a dedicated archer hero in a tourney list, but for the record a noble with reaver bow, decent mundane armour and wargear and the potion of strength is rather handy. The once a game S8 ROF3 missile attack is nasty, not enough to kill a monster, but enough to put a large dent in one.

 Icelord wrote:

THe loremaster built out is very close in points to the arch mage but mind razor/pit is sooo good with the book of hoeth.


Archmage are solid choices and as stated your loadout is 'standard issue'. Nothing wrong with an archmage, except that you might not get the spells you want. This places a lot of randomness in turn 0, also one miscast might cost you the game, or at least kick you off top tier. For a standalone game an archmage is almost an autoinclude, for a tournament I am not so sure.
Loremaster is a more reliable general, you known what you will have and know you have many many tools to win with, an archmage is too set on one lore to patch any army weakness and you are at the mercy of random selection. This indeed can cause you to win big, but it also means that the dice gods can gimp you easily, for a tournament, if you want to have a crack at winning you need to consistently win each game or you wont be high enough on the leaderboard to challenge the prize. You cant do this with a general of random if potentially extreme power who has a tendency to blow himself up. A Loremaster doesn't have that problem, as its hard (though possible) to completely feth up when you are only two dice casting all game.

 Icelord wrote:

You don't like the second mage at all?


You need two lores one way or another, so yes include him.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Ok I am intrigued. Can you show me a 2250 variant of my list with the loremaster?

I don't have 2 phoenix :(

~Ice~
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2019 ITC #1 Overall Best Admech
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