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Now, before we go further, I have no interest in hating on the Ultramarines or any other chapter. I totally get that hating on Ultramarines is the cool thing to do, but I'm more looking for factual and evidence based elements to support claims.

This is for a story I am currently writing and I would like to know which chapter's marines, as part of a Deathwatch Killteam, would be most likely to come in as the gung-ho "I'll show you how to do it!" newbie? I hav a few potential candidates for this, including Ultramarines (for genericness) and Minotaurs but I'm struggling to come up with others. Please note I have to discard several of the obvious choices, like Space Wolves, as they are already featured in the story and it wouldn't work if the newbie was of the same chapter as another character.

So, my initial ideas on this include Ultramarines, Minortaurs, or another Ultramarine successor. Which chapter would be the best for an arrogant newbie, discounting the following chapters as well? Why would they be arrogant in this manner?

- Blood Ravens
- White Scars and successors (have homebrew chapter character)
- Black Templars
- Crimson Fists
- Blood Angels
- Iron Hands
- Genesis Chapter
- Angels of Absolution/any Unforgiven
- Space Wolves
- Raptors
- Deathwatch Black Shields

Dang it would have been so easy to go with the Wolves... Maybe the Blood Angels could work, but more of a vanity trip than pure arrogance.

I think the Ultramarines would come off as arrogant, or though a lot of the horus heresy fiction suggests that they aren't, they just appear that way to many.

I think the Black Templars could come off as arrogant, in so far as believing their faith makes them better than other marines.

Given the Blood Angels curse, I doubt they would be arrogant.

Iron hands maybe?

Marines Malevolent

Hostage Situation?
Guess what their Solution is? (Hint, it involves Whirlwinds)

Plus they're Generally hated by EVERYONE

I could name you a top five but probably couldn't narrow it down to one.

Space Wolves - Boasting is a primary form of communication for the Wolves of Fenris, mind you, they had a recent humbling in the form of two straight failures.

Dark Angels - Different kind of arrogance, while the Wolves never shut up the First Legion refuses to talk to anyone beneath their notice.

Grey Knights - think they know what's best for everyone, harping on about never having a traitor, stooges without an original thought in their ranks.

Custodes - not exactly Space Marines but arrogant scuds nonetheless. One job to do and they blew it.

Flesh Tearers - Blood Angels successors but unlike their founding chapter the Flesh Tearers are almost guaranteed to fall to the Black Rage, and even before that are prone to killing innocents because...reasons. They believe the greatest clarity is in bloodsoaked battle-madness.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I could name you a top five but probably couldn't narrow it down to one.

Space Wolves - Boasting is a primary form of communication for the Wolves of Fenris, mind you, they had a recent humbling in the form of two straight failures.

Dark Angels - Different kind of arrogance, while the Wolves never shut up the First Legion refuses to talk to anyone beneath their notice.

Grey Knights - think they know what's best for everyone, harping on about never having a traitor, stooges without an original thought in their ranks.

Custodes - not exactly Space Marines but arrogant scuds nonetheless. One job to do and they blew it.

Flesh Tearers - Blood Angels successors but unlike their founding chapter the Flesh Tearers are almost guaranteed to fall to the Black Rage, and even before that are prone to killing innocents because...reasons. They believe the greatest clarity is in bloodsoaked battle-madness.

Okay, that Flesh Tearer comment is very interesting as I would never take them as arrogant given how succeptible they are to the flaw. It works great as well as I have a FT shoulder pad to use as well.

I could see the Imperial Fists being considered asshats - but that might just be my own headcanon.

I'm thinking of the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands. The first have a reputation for honest bluntness and there is the history with the Iron Warriors. The Iron Hands only respect strength and will look down on any chapter not meeting their standards.

Any Chapter that adheres very rigidly to the Codex Astartes could work, especially if some of the other Kill Team members are less codex-compliant.

These Chapters would work very well I feel:
Ultramarines
Red Scorpions
Praetors of Orpheus
Novamarines
Genesis Chapter

Fire hawks. are above all, they were, well, kinda killed off because of it.

Marines Malevolent (quite happy with civilian casualties/collateral damage during 3rd Armageddon war).
Iron Hands (despise any perceived signs of weakness).
Dark Angels (The Lion was definitely arrogant, today they are maybe a bit more on the secretive side).

Red Scorpions are quite arrogant. They disdain stealth and subterfuge, and are obsessed with the genetic purity of their geneseed.

I wouldn't recommend a Minotaur as an arrogant newbie as such. While they may be arrogant - they are specialised marine killers and have every reason to be feared.

Another good choice might be a Carcharodon? Just because they are brutal murderers and their genetic heritage is pretty shady (think Night Lords or World Eaters). I can imagine a brash and bloodthirsty newbie Carcharodon armed with a chain axe.

Alternatively you could create a home-brew chapter, or pick a marine from an unlikely chapter - chapter stereotypes do exist but marines do have personalities and some can be wildly at variance to their chapter norms.

Fire Hawks- so full of bravado, pride, grudges, etc., that they escalated the Badab War to what it became when it arguably might have still been defused, and later turned into scary space marines as their curse or w/e (or, at least, consistently and extremely heavily implied)

On the other side, the Astral Claws are known for being particularly prideful, (it also being their downfall, in a less supernatural way), what with thinking they're the best and treating lesser beings with contempt even before mr. H got to direct the party.

Templars and Wolves are both pretty obvious picks more on the firebrand/boisterous side of arrogance. Pretty much any but the friendliest (like salamanders) would be fine if all you're looking for is a haughty, grizzled vet.

Thanks for the replies everyone, really great suggestions coming through and please keep them coming!

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Fire Hawks- so full of bravado, pride, grudges, etc., that they escalated the Badab War to what it became when it arguably might have still been defused, and later turned into scary space marines as their curse or w/e (or, at least, consistently and extremely heavily implied)

On the other side, the Astral Claws are known for being particularly prideful, (it also being their downfall, in a less supernatural way), what with thinking they're the best and treating lesser beings with contempt even before mr. H got to direct the party.

Templars and Wolves are both pretty obvious picks more on the firebrand/boisterous side of arrogance. Pretty much any but the friendliest (like salamanders) would be fine if all you're looking for is a haughty, grizzled vet.

Just to clarify its not a Veteran I'm looking for, its a literally newbie* but supremely talent to the point of arrogance. He knows he's the gak and isn't afraid or humble enough to deny that, happily standing up and saying "I got this" when marines with 40x his experience are saying take cover. He's not doing it maliciously, he's just "Well, I can do this so why would I not?"

Space Wolves and Black Templars do seem the obvious choices but unfortunately I already have a Space Wolf and an arrogant Black Templar marine!

*Can't give too much away here, soz guys



For anyone interested in reading this story, link can be found in my sig! I upload 1 full chapter (around 5000-6500 words) every month! I have the first 5 already uploaded and the 6th this weekend. Please note this is a 1st draft though and I'm using feedback to write a second!

Minotaurs and their massive funding by the High Lords of Terra.

Templars are deffo up there. You just know they consider themselves "true knights" compared to lesser marines, and their eternal crusade to be more in keeping with, and therefore more worthy of, the Emperor's legacy.

I think they regard fellow Imperial Fists successors with a bit more respect. But I easily see them looking down their noses on everyone else.

Iron Hands, Templers, Space Wolves can be, Marines malevolent by a mile.
Minotours.

All marines are to a degree, others take that more extreme than others.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I could name you a top five but probably couldn't narrow it down to one.

Space Wolves - Boasting is a primary form of communication for the Wolves of Fenris, mind you, they had a recent humbling in the form of two straight failures.

Dark Angels - Different kind of arrogance, while the Wolves never shut up the First Legion refuses to talk to anyone beneath their notice.

Grey Knights - think they know what's best for everyone, harping on about never having a traitor, stooges without an original thought in their ranks.

Custodes - not exactly Space Marines but arrogant scuds nonetheless. One job to do and they blew it.

Flesh Tearers - Blood Angels successors but unlike their founding chapter the Flesh Tearers are almost guaranteed to fall to the Black Rage, and even before that are prone to killing innocents because...reasons. They believe the greatest clarity is in bloodsoaked battle-madness.

Okay, that Flesh Tearer comment is very interesting as I would never take them as arrogant given how succeptible they are to the flaw. It works great as well as I have a FT shoulder pad to use as well.

Flesh Tearers come from a death world that's almost exactly like Fenris except you'll die of heat exposure rather than cold. The elements want you dead, the wildlife wants you dead, the plantlife wants you dead and even the water wants you dead.
Surviving all that, being a cut above the other survivors in such a way that the near godly Space Marine chapter notices your skills then breezing the Space Marine entry trials as well makes arrogant "I've got this" rookies.
The knowledge of their impending madness doesn't bother the Flesh Tearers until they get older and it starts claiming their closer team mates or they start getting the visons themselves - because until it hits close they don't really hear about it, they aren't like the Wolves who get together in big group hugs to swap stories, Flesh Tearers only gather when they need numbers to kill stuff.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I could name you a top five but probably couldn't narrow it down to one.

Space Wolves - Boasting is a primary form of communication for the Wolves of Fenris, mind you, they had a recent humbling in the form of two straight failures.

Dark Angels - Different kind of arrogance, while the Wolves never shut up the First Legion refuses to talk to anyone beneath their notice.

Grey Knights - think they know what's best for everyone, harping on about never having a traitor, stooges without an original thought in their ranks.

Custodes - not exactly Space Marines but arrogant scuds nonetheless. One job to do and they blew it.

Flesh Tearers - Blood Angels successors but unlike their founding chapter the Flesh Tearers are almost guaranteed to fall to the Black Rage, and even before that are prone to killing innocents because...reasons. They believe the greatest clarity is in bloodsoaked battle-madness.

Okay, that Flesh Tearer comment is very interesting as I would never take them as arrogant given how succeptible they are to the flaw. It works great as well as I have a FT shoulder pad to use as well.

Flesh Tearers come from a death world that's almost exactly like Fenris except you'll die of heat exposure rather than cold. The elements want you dead, the wildlife wants you dead, the plantlife wants you dead and even the water wants you dead.
Surviving all that, being a cut above the other survivors in such a way that the near godly Space Marine chapter notices your skills then breezing the Space Marine entry trials as well makes arrogant "I've got this" rookies.
The knowledge of their impending madness doesn't bother the Flesh Tearers until they get older and it starts claiming their closer team mates or they start getting the visons themselves - because until it hits close they don't really hear about it, they aren't like the Wolves who get together in big group hugs to swap stories, Flesh Tearers only gather when they need numbers to kill stuff.

Anyone else ever entertained the wild idea that the Flesh Tearers might actually be a loyalist World Eater chapter, given a more... "politically acceptable" genealogy on paper?

Their desire to sleep in coffins is enough to fool the inquisition.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I could name you a top five but probably couldn't narrow it down to one.

Space Wolves - Boasting is a primary form of communication for the Wolves of Fenris, mind you, they had a recent humbling in the form of two straight failures.

Dark Angels - Different kind of arrogance, while the Wolves never shut up the First Legion refuses to talk to anyone beneath their notice.

Grey Knights - think they know what's best for everyone, harping on about never having a traitor, stooges without an original thought in their ranks.

Custodes - not exactly Space Marines but arrogant scuds nonetheless. One job to do and they blew it.

Flesh Tearers - Blood Angels successors but unlike their founding chapter the Flesh Tearers are almost guaranteed to fall to the Black Rage, and even before that are prone to killing innocents because...reasons. They believe the greatest clarity is in bloodsoaked battle-madness.

Okay, that Flesh Tearer comment is very interesting as I would never take them as arrogant given how succeptible they are to the flaw. It works great as well as I have a FT shoulder pad to use as well.

Flesh Tearers come from a death world that's almost exactly like Fenris except you'll die of heat exposure rather than cold. The elements want you dead, the wildlife wants you dead, the plantlife wants you dead and even the water wants you dead.
Surviving all that, being a cut above the other survivors in such a way that the near godly Space Marine chapter notices your skills then breezing the Space Marine entry trials as well makes arrogant "I've got this" rookies.
The knowledge of their impending madness doesn't bother the Flesh Tearers until they get older and it starts claiming their closer team mates or they start getting the visons themselves - because until it hits close they don't really hear about it, they aren't like the Wolves who get together in big group hugs to swap stories, Flesh Tearers only gather when they need numbers to kill stuff.

Anyone else ever entertained the wild idea that the Flesh Tearers might actually be a loyalist World Eater chapter, given a more... "politically acceptable" genealogy on paper?

Nah. They're from the second founding, explicitly made up of marines from the IX Legion and led by the "Flesh Tearer" himself Nassir Amit who was a Blood Angels captain.

All space Marine chapters can have their arrogant members etc, so really anyone COULD work. In this case it sounds like you're asking more what would be the best and most belivable. my gut feeling is that the best way would be to prey on some rivalry that exists, and I think in that case I have the perfect suggestion.

My suggestion? put an Ultramarine in the squad, (Ideally as squad leader) and make the Gung Ho newbie a member of the Hammers of Dorn. the Hammers of Dorn, as a chapter have a (very one sided) compeitive rivalry with the ultramarines, and are constantly trying to show them up. in time the gung ho newbie's rough edges can come off, and you can show a friendship developing between these two whom where once compeitetors.

Aren't they led by Gabriel Seth?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't they led by Gabriel Seth?

Yes, thr other one was the second founding chapter master originally, a particularly brutal Blood Angel.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't they led by Gabriel Seth?

Yes, thr other one was the second founding chapter master originally, a particularly brutal Blood Angel.

That's high praise. Having a founding chapter named after you.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't they led by Gabriel Seth?

Yes, thr other one was the second founding chapter master originally, a particularly brutal Blood Angel.

That's high praise. Having a founding chapter named after you.

Far as I believe. He was a senior captain in Blood angels.
I don,t know exactly, not first but one of the legions more higher ranking officers.

 Deadshot wrote:
I would like to know which chapter's marines, as part of a Deathwatch Killteam, would be most likely to come in as the gung-ho "I'll show you how to do it!" newbie?

Most Chapters see Death Watch duty as a great honor. It's an important service to the Empire and those taking part gain prestige and knowledge to take back home should they survive. They're not going to send a newbie who can't be relied upon to behave himself, no matter if he's the hottest initiate of the century or not. That said almost every marine will be arrogant in some way.

What I'm getting at is the "arrogant newbie" isn't likely to be 100% wrong - his ideas could well work (and maybe even be the best for a certain situation) but the team leader has his own particular methods that also work. And maybe a story to share about why he prefers this or that approach these days, something the newbie just couldn't have learned before joining.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I would like to know which chapter's marines, as part of a Deathwatch Killteam, would be most likely to come in as the gung-ho "I'll show you how to do it!" newbie?

Most Chapters see Death Watch duty as a great honor. It's an important service to the Empire and those taking part gain prestige and knowledge to take back home should they survive. They're not going to send a newbie who can't be relied upon to behave himself, no matter if he's the hottest initiate of the century or not. That said almost every marine will be arrogant in some way.

What I'm getting at is the "arrogant newbie" isn't likely to be 100% wrong - his ideas could well work (and maybe even be the best for a certain situation) but the team leader has his own particular methods that also work. And maybe a story to share about why he prefers this or that approach these days, something the newbie just couldn't have learned before joining.

Most chapters simply don't send newbies to the Deathwatch, there is a reason the basic Deathwatch units are called Veterans. There are exceptions - AKA Drenn Redblade but Space Wolves usually send Wolf Scouts - not that their rules reflect it but Wolf Scouts are Veterans themselves.
If a newbie has been sent they need a strong backing story explaining why their commanding officer didn't just fix them with a backhand.

 Drakeslayer wrote:


Another good choice might be a Carcharodon? Just because they are brutal murderers and their genetic heritage is pretty shady (think Night Lords or World Eaters). I can imagine a brash and bloodthirsty newbie Carcharodon armed with a chain axe.

Off topic, but the Carcharodons have far more evidence supporting that they're actually a Raven Guard successor, specifically originating from the Terran Raven Guard whom Corax really didn't like and had sent off during the Great Crusade to deal with enemies at the edge of and outside the Galaxy's plane. It would seem that he loathed the Terran born so much, that he didn't call them back to help rebuild the legion during the Horus Heresy. Also, they're shoulder pad insignia was very similar if not outright identical to that of Carcharodons now.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I would like to know which chapter's marines, as part of a Deathwatch Killteam, would be most likely to come in as the gung-ho "I'll show you how to do it!" newbie?

Most Chapters see Death Watch duty as a great honor. It's an important service to the Empire and those taking part gain prestige and knowledge to take back home should they survive. They're not going to send a newbie who can't be relied upon to behave himself, no matter if he's the hottest initiate of the century or not. That said almost every marine will be arrogant in some way.

What I'm getting at is the "arrogant newbie" isn't likely to be 100% wrong - his ideas could well work (and maybe even be the best for a certain situation) but the team leader has his own particular methods that also work. And maybe a story to share about why he prefers this or that approach these days, something the newbie just couldn't have learned before joining.

Most chapters simply don't send newbies to the Deathwatch, there is a reason the basic Deathwatch units are called Veterans. There are exceptions - AKA Drenn Redblade but Space Wolves usually send Wolf Scouts - not that their rules reflect it but Wolf Scouts are Veterans themselves.
If a newbie has been sent they need a strong backing story explaining why their commanding officer didn't just fix them with a backhand.

Thanks for the input mate, very useful information there which will help immensely! And thanks to everyone else as well, lots of great info!

While I cant give too much away, I will say there is definitely suitable backstory to justify all this, this newbie isn't exactly an old silverback but he's a bit more experienced than Neophyte, but in comparison to the team he'll be with, he might as well be a newborn babe. He also is very aware that he literally is the most talented this century and has no issue using his talents as he sees fit to the point of disobediance as he sees the others as making inferior tactical decisions (ie, ones that dont put him at the forefront of every plan)