Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Khorne (plus Papa Smurf) saves the Blood Angels and all their successors... This. Does. Not. Bode. Well.
I can only think of 1 reason he would send his greatest lieutenant to stop Leviathan eating them...

Interestingly enough we also find out that:
-The Blood Angels do not get wiped out (just).
-The Crusade of RG made it through the warp rift and is now in the Dark Imperium, not on the Terran side (this is quite a huge development).
-Chaos has the ability to wipe out the entirety of the largest hive fleet seen to date (this is an assumption - they may have sent the majority of it through the warp elsewhere), whilst it is already committed to countless fields of war across the galaxy.
-Sanguinus does not reappear from the dead to save Baal.
-All the BA, aside from 1 chapter, are in 1 place, therefore in Legion strength before Leviathans attack, presumably given Primaris marines to make up for losses to be towards legion strength again after it's all over. Make of that what you will.

Thoughts?

I am so sick of tired of Blood Angels being a punching bag (Wharf Effect?). Ultramarines at chapter strength defeat a Hive Fleet, while Blood Angels at legion strength get mauled be a Hive Fleet.

If being saved by Ka'bandha is a sign that Blood Angels will go to Khorne I will retire my Blood Angels.

Chaos v tyranid box set?
Now, that would be cool...

Ubermahweens should get their teef knocked out by some vicious orks.
Blood Angels should become a pariah along with the rest of the cursed founding remnants,
in the grey zone between traitors and Ubers.

Gulliman should get dead by Mortarian.
Vulcan should return to kill Mortarian and join forces with Cawl.
A new Uberprimarch should come from the new primaris founding-seediness.

Or, maybe not.
Wardiness dictates that Ubers crush all and install their own to rebuild the other surviving chapters in the form of their spiritual liege sans flaws.

How exactly does Girlyman get from Terra side to the other without trouble?
Has this question been answered, or is it just POOF, papa furted and the war was won?

 jeff white wrote:
Chaos v tyranid box set?
Now, that would be cool...

Ubermahweens should get their teef knocked out by some vicious orks.
Blood Angels should become a pariah along with the rest of the cursed founding remnants,
in the grey zone between traitors and Ubers.

Umm, Blood Angels aren't cursed founding (13th founding), they are the IX Legion (first founding).

I would rather that the Blood Angels and successors managed to defeat Hive Fleet Leviathan (at great cost mind you). With the disruption of the Hive Mind, due to the Great Rifts creation, being a turning point.

Or the Great Rifts creation managed to confuse and divert Hive Fleet Leviathan, with the Blood Angels and successors managing to (at cost) defeat the remnants. So that their is both a major Hive Fleet nearby and the mangled IX Legion needing reinforcements.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So Khorne (plus Papa Smurf) saves the Blood Angels and all their successors... This. Does. Not. Bode. Well.
I can only think of 1 reason he would send his greatest lieutenant to stop Leviathan eating them...

Interestingly enough we also find out that:
-The Blood Angels do not get wiped out (just).
-The Crusade of RG made it through the warp rift and is now in the Dark Imperium, not on the Terran side (this is quite a huge development).
-Chaos has the ability to wipe out the entirety of the largest hive fleet seen to date (this is an assumption - they may have sent the majority of it through the warp elsewhere), whilst it is already committed to countless fields of war across the galaxy.
-Sanguinus does not reappear from the dead to save Baal.
-All the BA, aside from 1 chapter, are in 1 place, therefore in Legion strength before Leviathans attack, presumably given Primaris marines to make up for losses to be towards legion strength again after it's all over. Make of that what you will.

Thoughts?

Chaos defeated a tendril of the largest hive fleet. Not the entirety. Leviathan spans more than half the galaxy.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So Khorne (plus Papa Smurf) saves the Blood Angels and all their successors... This. Does. Not. Bode. Well.
I can only think of 1 reason he would send his greatest lieutenant to stop Leviathan eating them...

Interestingly enough we also find out that:
-The Blood Angels do not get wiped out (just).
-The Crusade of RG made it through the warp rift and is now in the Dark Imperium, not on the Terran side (this is quite a huge development).
-Chaos has the ability to wipe out the entirety of the largest hive fleet seen to date (this is an assumption - they may have sent the majority of it through the warp elsewhere), whilst it is already committed to countless fields of war across the galaxy.
-Sanguinus does not reappear from the dead to save Baal.
-All the BA, aside from 1 chapter, are in 1 place, therefore in Legion strength before Leviathans attack, presumably given Primaris marines to make up for losses to be towards legion strength again after it's all over. Make of that what you will.

Thoughts?

Well to be fair Guilleman showed up with an entire crusade, not just the Ultramarines. That would be a huge force.

Also I'm a Lamenters player so I'm safe from being an Ultramarines fanboy after being saved by them and being sadled with a bunch of Primaris marines


It was really annoying reading that, it had a great buildup and that final paragraph just deflated the whole story. Between the storm and the crusade it just felt like such a wasted opportunity that was only used to make the Ultramarines and chaos look good, depriving both nids and blood Angels any satisfaction from it at all.

Shield of Baal was a great read - however sad to see that all the varied factions in the original story are ignored and yet again its just marines, marines, marines

Tygre wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Chaos v tyranid box set?
Now, that would be cool...

Ubermahweens should get their teef knocked out by some vicious orks.
Blood Angels should become a pariah along with the rest of the cursed founding remnants,
in the grey zone between traitors and Ubers.

Umm, Blood Angels aren't cursed founding (13th founding), they are the IX Legion (first founding).

I would rather that the Blood Angels and successors managed to defeat Hive Fleet Leviathan (at great cost mind you). With the disruption of the Hive Mind, due to the Great Rifts creation, being a turning point.

Or the Great Rifts creation managed to confuse and divert Hive Fleet Leviathan, with the Blood Angels and successors managing to (at cost) defeat the remnants. So that their is both a major Hive Fleet nearby and the mangled IX Legion needing reinforcements.

OK. My bad. Was reading Lamenters lore and should have written all the cursed and corrupted chapters.
Instead caused confusion.
The post was intended not to be serious...
But isn't the cursed founding the 21st?

I find it weird that Chaos would be able to defeat a Tyranid tendril. Tyranid have no soul, they don't feed the daemon who kills them. The Shadow in the Warp blocks out any non Tyranid psychic presence. How the hell are Khorn daemons supposed to manifest in those circomstances. Sure, this particular tendril of Leviathan was already severely weakenned, but I find it odd and a bit cheap for Chaos forces to wipe them out.

epronovost wrote:
I find it weird that Chaos would be able to defeat a Tyranid tendril. Tyranid have no soul, they don't feed the daemon who kills them. The Shadow in the Warp blocks out any non Tyranid psychic presence. How the hell are Khorn daemons supposed to manifest in those circomstances. Sure, this particular tendril of Leviathan was already severely weakenned, but I find it odd and a bit cheap for Chaos forces to wipe them out.

There's a favorite story I enjoy in the old 6th edition Tyranid Book.. Where a very powerful manifestation of Four Greater Daemons with a warp storm spawned from a powerful daemon artifact breaking. While the Tyranid Presence was able to weaken it the Warp Storm was able to survive for some time due to just how strong it was when it came into being, you had horrors turning feeding pools into explosive promethium, clouds turning into blood that melted away Tyranids drop pods.. Now while the Tyranids weakened the Warp Storm overtime it wasn't all at once, and once it figured that it was what was feeding the daemons presence started making beings that fed against it.

The Tyranid Tendril in this got hit by part the Great Rift, a massive powerful warp storm that feeds from the Eye of Terror to the other end of the galaxy that feeds from other massive powerful rifts. This is not a normal little warp storm that the Tyranids would be able to force away with Shadow of the Warp.

Hope they expand on all of this. Seems like it was resolved too quickly

Tygre wrote:
I am so sick of tired of Blood Angels being a punching bag (Wharf Effect?). Ultramarines at chapter strength defeat a Hive Fleet, while Blood Angels at legion strength get mauled be a Hive Fleet.

If being saved by Ka'bandha is a sign that Blood Angels will go to Khorne I will retire my Blood Angels.

It was more like...
Blood Angels at Legion Strength died...
Chaos at who freaking knows Strength defeats the Hive Fleet
Ultramarines with Ultra Rowboat defeat an insignificant amount of left over stragglers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
Gulliman should get dead by Mortarian.

What if, Rowboat and Abaddon have an epic duel on like a spaceship.
Rowboat strikes a mortal wound on Abaddon, and Abaddon responds by completing obliterating blue eyes white dragon style Rowboat and his soul forever.
Then Abaddon in the last moments of his life is strapped onto a giant chair and is kept aliv... actually screw that becomes a Daemon Prince King.

If your talking about Macragge, the UM barely fought of the nids in what was one of the smallest hive fleets seen to date.

What happened at Baal was a great many multiple of magnitude larger in terms of the number of nids coming at them.

Tygre wrote:
I am so sick of tired of Blood Angels being a punching bag (Wharf Effect?). Ultramarines at chapter strength defeat a Hive Fleet, while Blood Angels at legion strength get mauled be a Hive Fleet.

If being saved by Ka'bandha is a sign that Blood Angels will go to Khorne I will retire my Blood Angels.

Hive Fleet Behemoth was absolutely TINY.

 Talamare wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I am so sick of tired of Blood Angels being a punching bag (Wharf Effect?). Ultramarines at chapter strength defeat a Hive Fleet, while Blood Angels at legion strength get mauled be a Hive Fleet.

If being saved by Ka'bandha is a sign that Blood Angels will go to Khorne I will retire my Blood Angels.

It was more like...
Blood Angels at Legion Strength died...
Chaos at who freaking knows Strength defeats the Hive Fleet
Ultramarines with Ultra Rowboat defeat an insignificant amount of left over stragglers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
Gulliman should get dead by Mortarian.

What if, Rowboat and Abaddon have an epic duel on like a spaceship.
Rowboat strikes a mortal wound on Abaddon, and Abaddon responds by completing obliterating blue eyes white dragon style Rowboat and his soul forever.
Then Abaddon in the last moments of his life is strapped onto a giant chair and is kept aliv... actually screw that becomes a Daemon Prince King.

I think the fleet invading Baal just vanished. That's why the attacking Nids just stopped and stared up at the sky, waiting for instructions from the Hive Mind. But the Fleet was gone.


I don't think that the Khornates or Rawbutt's forces destroyed the Tyranids in space.

So, just as GW Roboute Guilliman arrives with new models to sell desperately needed reinforcements, the old founding chapters are decimated in the fluff. What a twist!

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I am so sick of tired of Blood Angels being a punching bag (Wharf Effect?). Ultramarines at chapter strength defeat a Hive Fleet, while Blood Angels at legion strength get mauled be a Hive Fleet.

If being saved by Ka'bandha is a sign that Blood Angels will go to Khorne I will retire my Blood Angels.

It was more like...
Blood Angels at Legion Strength died...
Chaos at who freaking knows Strength defeats the Hive Fleet
Ultramarines with Ultra Rowboat defeat an insignificant amount of left over stragglers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
Gulliman should get dead by Mortarian.

What if, Rowboat and Abaddon have an epic duel on like a spaceship.
Rowboat strikes a mortal wound on Abaddon, and Abaddon responds by completing obliterating blue eyes white dragon style Rowboat and his soul forever.
Then Abaddon in the last moments of his life is strapped onto a giant chair and is kept aliv... actually screw that becomes a Daemon Prince King.

I think the fleet invading Baal just vanished. That's why the attacking Nids just stopped and stared up at the sky, waiting for instructions from the Hive Mind. But the Fleet was gone.


I don't think that the Khornates or Rawbutt's forces destroyed the Tyranids in space.

Could be that this particular tendril of Leviathan was sucked directly into the Warp and is making Khorne REALLY happy somewhere in the immaterium, much like a certain group of Orks.

 jeff white wrote:

Tygre wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Chaos v tyranid box set?
Now, that would be cool...

Ubermahweens should get their teef knocked out by some vicious orks.
Blood Angels should become a pariah along with the rest of the cursed founding remnants,
in the grey zone between traitors and Ubers.

Umm, Blood Angels aren't cursed founding (13th founding), they are the IX Legion (first founding).

I would rather that the Blood Angels and successors managed to defeat Hive Fleet Leviathan (at great cost mind you). With the disruption of the Hive Mind, due to the Great Rifts creation, being a turning point.

Or the Great Rifts creation managed to confuse and divert Hive Fleet Leviathan, with the Blood Angels and successors managing to (at cost) defeat the remnants. So that their is both a major Hive Fleet nearby and the mangled IX Legion needing reinforcements.

OK. My bad. Was reading Lamenters lore and should have written all the cursed and corrupted chapters.
Instead caused confusion.
The post was intended not to be serious...
But isn't the cursed founding the 21st?

Yes they 21st founding. I was going off the top of my head. My Bad, just the treatment the Blood Angels got left me illtempered.

Still wonder why Khorne decided save the blood angels and some of the succesors.


I mean...omg, help marines! Even if is Khorne he must have a plan and do it for some secret motive.


Also think on this, maybe could be the start of the born of the doubt on the souls of the survivors

I like all the responses. I too dislike the fact that BA + successors lose all the glory to Gulliman's forces... it would indeed have been better if they had been in the verge of losing and reinforcements arrive to tip the balance (but not ultramarines, maybe Raven Guard/Salamanders or someone else had rounded up their successors and with a large Guard, Sisters and Navy force had arrived as help), then the two forces could fight back from the brink and finally overcome the tendril.
Definitely not a fan of 'a magical warp rift opened and killed them all, the end' scenario, it's too easy a way out.

The BA and their successors probably only had several thousand marines in their arsenal plus their militia/standard imperial infantry. I think they held out pretty well on their own. But there wasn't any chance they were going to make it without some kind of intervention. As i've heard others say, I hope not every story going forward is going to be riddled with deus ex machina type stuff.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I like all the responses. I too dislike the fact that BA + successors lose all the glory to Gulliman's forces... it would indeed have been better if they had been in the verge of losing and reinforcements arrive to tip the balance (but not ultramarines, maybe Raven Guard/Salamanders or someone else had rounded up their successors and with a large Guard, Sisters and Navy force had arrived as help), then the two forces could fight back from the brink and finally overcome the tendril.
Definitely not a fan of 'a magical warp rift opened and killed them all, the end' scenario, it's too easy a way out.

most of the Ultramarines are in Ultramar, The Indomatus Crusade is not the god damned Ultramarines. seriously, if you play 40k I know you're not incapable of reading comprehension. this is an Imperial crusade, and all that it implies

Yeh an intervention needed to happen, but the Ultrmarines can't be the ones doing all the intervening.
I would have thought it would have probably been more than just a few thousand BA successors. We already know of about a dozen named successors and there would be many more of the thousand chapters who's names and origins we don't know that are probably BA successors as well. Whilst not 6 figure legion strength id still assume BA sucessors make up at least 5% of the chapters so around 40-60thousand at a minimum (minus the numbers that need to be taken into account for understrength chapters and the need for leaving garrisons on their homeworlds we would be looking at 30-50 thousand present in the Baal system). It would also mean around 50-100 Battle Barges (depending if average number of battle barges is 1 or 2) and 100's of Strike Cruisers plus Imperial Navy affiliates. This is all conjecture of course and im predicting the numbers based on likely percentages of the whole not on anything concrete.
Even when you add in the IG, SoB, Militia and serfs, the numbers are still a speck when compared to Leviathan of course.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Yeh an intervention needed to happen, but the Ultrmarines can't be the ones doing all the intervening.
I would have thought it would have probably been more than just a few thousand BA successors. We already know of about a dozen named successors and there would be many more of the thousand chapters who's names and origins we don't know that are probably BA successors as well. Whilst not 6 figure legion strength id still assume BA sucessors make up at least 5% of the chapters so around 40-60thousand at a minimum (minus the numbers that need to be taken into account for understrength chapters and the need for leaving garrisons on their homeworlds we would be looking at 30-50 thousand present in the Baal system). It would also mean around 50-100 Battle Barges (depending if average number of battle barges is 1 or 2) and 100's of Strike Cruisers plus Imperial Navy affiliates. This is all conjecture of course and im predicting the numbers based on likely percentages of the whole not on anything concrete.
Even when you add in the IG, SoB, Militia and serfs, the numbers are still a speck when compared to Leviathan of course.

one thing to consider is due to the black rage a lot of these chapters are proably dying, so under strength, but yeah it was a huge force,

the ultramarines weren't interveneing, the crusade was, and yes Gulliman lead the releif force personally, but it makes sense to me, a force of ravenous xenos, one of the greatest threats in the galaxy is threatening to wipe out a large number of space marine chapters, ohh and destroy the grave of one of your most beloved brothers. wouldn't you wanna be there PERSONALLY?

I love how all this build up to a desperate, beleaguered 'Dark Imperium' fighting for its survival has pretty much been wrapped up BEFORE THE NEW LORE EVEN HIT THE SHELVES. Yeah, it's only Baal but now we know Rowboat can just hop, skip and jump there anyway it seems like a pretty pointless development.

Don't worry kids, Matt Ward's self-insert will save us! Woohoo! Don't forget to model your Chaplain in a suitably heroic pose reinacting one of his many grand speeches about how he is their Spiritual Liege(tm) and they should all fight extra hard to maybe one day be as cool as the Ultramarines(tm).

BrianDavion wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I like all the responses. I too dislike the fact that BA + successors lose all the glory to Gulliman's forces... it would indeed have been better if they had been in the verge of losing and reinforcements arrive to tip the balance (but not ultramarines, maybe Raven Guard/Salamanders or someone else had rounded up their successors and with a large Guard, Sisters and Navy force had arrived as help), then the two forces could fight back from the brink and finally overcome the tendril.
Definitely not a fan of 'a magical warp rift opened and killed them all, the end' scenario, it's too easy a way out.

most of the Ultramarines are in Ultramar, The Indomatus Crusade is not the god damned Ultramarines. seriously, if you play 40k I know you're not incapable of reading comprehension. this is an Imperial crusade, and all that it implies

Woah where did that come from? Yes I know most of the Ultramarines are in Ultramar, however, many of the Primaris Marines at the forefront of the crusade are built with Ultramarine Genestock and this can be considered Ultramarines (Who are also led by the Ultramarine Primarch) much like the Primaris reinforcements for the Blood Angels can be considered Blood Angels.
I used the word 'forces' at first, because I am fully aware that there are more than just marines on a crusade. However when I use the word Ultramarines later in the paragraph, I use it as shorthand for "The Primaris Marines of Ultramarine Genestock who are led by the Ultramarine Primarch, plus their allies on crusade with them, the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, the Custodes, the Sisters of Silence and other Space Marine Chapters" but it's quite a lot to write tbf so I shortened it to 'Ultramarines'. No need to jump down my throat.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I love how all this build up to a desperate, beleaguered 'Dark Imperium' fighting for its survival has pretty much been wrapped up BEFORE THE NEW LORE EVEN HIT THE SHELVES.

Don't worry kids, Matt Ward's self-insert will save us! Woohoo! Don't forget to model your Chaplain in a suitably heroic pose reinacting one of his many grand speeches about how he is their Spiritual Liege(tm).

yet again Id be very suprised if we didn't see 8th edition start with a time jump, that'd explain the Baal fluff approperately, it's GW wrapping up dangling plot hooks that absolutely needed to be wrapped up.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I love how all this build up to a desperate, beleaguered 'Dark Imperium' fighting for its survival has pretty much been wrapped up BEFORE THE NEW LORE EVEN HIT THE SHELVES.

Don't worry kids, Matt Ward's self-insert will save us! Woohoo! Don't forget to model your Chaplain in a suitably heroic pose reinacting one of his many grand speeches about how he is their Spiritual Liege(tm).

yet again Id be very suprised if we didn't see 8th edition start with a time jump, that'd explain the Baal fluff approperately, it's GW wrapping up dangling plot hooks that absolutely needed to be wrapped up.

I agree there's going to be a timejump with stories then backdated to explain what's happened. I still would have thought that it's odd for the crusade to be at Baal since its needed elsewhere.
Also thinking about it again, the timeline doesn't make sense... it talks about the Great Warp rift occuring and swallowing Leviathan just when Baal is about to be overrun - then the crusade fleet arrives.

But...

We know the Great Warp Rift occured when Abaddon destroyed the pylons on Cadia which Cawl was present for. Cawl + forces then travel through the webway over a noticable time period, arrive in Ultramar, revive RG, RG spends time fighting Chaos in Ultramar, then travels to terra, RG speaks to the Emperor, then forms a crusade and activates the Primaris Marines than presumably travels to Baal.

And all of this occurs almost instantaneously in comparison in the Baal story, as the warp rift occurs, abates, then the crusade arrives.

What would have been FANTASTIC and totally Grimdark would have been if the crusade didn't go there and instead the Warp rift occured, destroyed Leviathans forces around Baal, then with no Hivemind the BA + allies are able to finish off the remnants on Baal.
Why?
Because then the BA would only have survived because of Khorne, without the image of a crusade being the 'saviour'. Thus (especially with the skulls on Baal Prime) a HUGE amount of suspicion would have then been placed on the BA by the rest of the imperium to the extent that they could have been excommunicated, which would be a massive plot advancement moving away from the norm. Of course this would have stopped sales of Primaris to BA armies in RL though.

 Torga_DW wrote:
So, just as GW Roboute Guilliman arrives with new models to sell desperately needed reinforcements, the old founding chapters are decimated in the fluff. What a twist!

This is what I've been saying! All the special snowflake chapters get destroyed, their homeworld effectively destroyed, and look like primaris marines are gonna take over the chapters

From the Great Rift Article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/new-warhammer-40000-the-great-riftgw-homepage-post-4/

The Great Rift is a tear in reality that essentially divides the Imperium in half. Its emergence was a literal galaxy-shattering event, which threw the Imperium into chaos and ushered in new wars across nearly every world in the Imperium. So powerful and far was this storm that the very laws of physics fray at the edges as the inconsistencies of time fluctuations, once largely localised to larger storms such as the Eye of Terror, spread across the galaxy. Some worlds felt centuries go by in an instant while others were all but frozen in time, and still others have suffered constant temporal shifts.

Ka'Bandha saved the Blood Angels to taunt them and to make sure only he can deliver the deathblow.

Apparently their is a novel by Guy Haley coming out in November to explain the details of this summery we've seen.

https://www.amazon.com/Devastation-Baal-Space-Marine-Battles/dp/1784965936