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Made in ch
Fighter Ace





RNAS Rockall

Yaho,

Some major points of contention came out of discussing this regarding 8th, but I believe it's worth investigating from a proactive view.

I've encountered so far in my 40k games; a person who reacted badly to the colour red, a person almost incapable of picking up a model not at the table edge, and a chap who almost had his eye gouged out by a rotary saw. In all three cases I was willing and able to offer the obvious forms of assistance (swap out my white sentinels for my red ones, move their models where they pointed) but that's the basic stuff.

I would not want to be complacent however in making reasonable adjustments, so I ask from your experiences:

What impairments have you seen or been able to assist folks in overcoming for the hobby, and how did you go about it?
How did they handle it and how effectively?

Calm yourself and act wisely.
Currently recalculating collection.
8th Edition MathHammer-O-Matic. For when you absolutely, positively have to shoot everything. 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





London

This guy plays in my local and manages well. He's also very clever with a great memory. Generally he starts sealed events early to have time to punch up the sleeves. Should be inspirational to anyone trying to accommodate disability for competitive events.

http://nerdist.com/ingenuous-use-of-braille-lets-the-blind-play-magic-the-gathering/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/28 17:28:55


 
   
Made in us
Barpharanges






Probably work

I played against a dude in a wheelchair once. He asked me to measure and move things for him. It never became a big deal for either of us.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 daedalus wrote:
I played against a dude in a wheelchair once. He asked me to measure and move things for him. It never became a big deal for either of us.


I had seen people ask to move stuff for them when they had a bad back. and i have no issues assisting because iv been that guy with terrible back pain needing help with models that are on the other side of the table.

people that pick up models when they are explicitly told not to or not given permission i give no quarter though. i get they have a problem but im not going to let that become my problem

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/30 23:49:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
This guy plays in my local and manages well. He's also very clever with a great memory. Generally he starts sealed events early to have time to punch up the sleeves. Should be inspirational to anyone trying to accommodate disability for competitive events.

http://nerdist.com/ingenuous-use-of-braille-lets-the-blind-play-magic-the-gathering/


That is pretty damn impressive!


Closest me and my old gaming group came to accommodating a disability was in regards to a player's color blindness. He had a hard time making out the results on dice of a certain color, so the group stopped using dice of that color.

   
Made in gb
Legendary Black Templar High Marshall





avoiding the lorax on Crion

It all depends on person.

If someone asks for help.
Sometimes people might want pride to manage it themself even if there abit slower or shakey .

Your army may be abit rougher round edges but you painted it yourself etc even if those eye lenses are a tad splodgey, the lines are not as crisp as other guy and such.
Its there confidence, and pride still.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 00:04:48


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.  
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
This guy plays in my local and manages well. He's also very clever with a great memory. Generally he starts sealed events early to have time to punch up the sleeves. Should be inspirational to anyone trying to accommodate disability for competitive events.

http://nerdist.com/ingenuous-use-of-braille-lets-the-blind-play-magic-the-gathering/


That is pretty damn impressive!


Closest me and my old gaming group came to accommodating a disability was in regards to a player's color blindness. He had a hard time making out the results on dice of a certain color, so the group stopped using dice of that color.


Holy hell thats cleaver.

   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator






I have a bad back and I can say it's a huge relief when someone moves something to prevent me from having to lean across the table. It seems small but saves me so much pain.

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I would in no way see any of these options as an inconvenience. I have messed up hip and knees so I understand.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

I figure that it is hard enough finding people into "the hobby" so inclusion is key.
Takes all kinds to make the world go round and staying in practice for courtesy and patience is a good thing.
My eldest kid has ADHD and some mild Autism so he is always going a 1000Mph all the time so fast play I am used to and slow is a good break for me.
Typically doing what you like: it is all good.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

On one hand, I have no problems helping other people out moving stuff. On the other hand, I'm one of those people whose hand will come within two feet of someone else's model and a piece of it (the model, not my hand) will just fall off. So, I'm happy to help, but very leery of doing so for fear of breaking other people's toys.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Friendly Peat Beast






The Great Marsh

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
This guy plays in my local and manages well. He's also very clever with a great memory. Generally he starts sealed events early to have time to punch up the sleeves. Should be inspirational to anyone trying to accommodate disability for competitive events.

http://nerdist.com/ingenuous-use-of-braille-lets-the-blind-play-magic-the-gathering/

What a cool idea, and a fantastic article! Thanks

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 00:17:00


Check out the ModCube webstore! http://www.modcube.com

 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Most reasonable adjustment is just about being a decent human being and putting in a little bit of effort.

Personally I have memory problems so have to check and ask about lots of rules. I know the core stuff for games, but odd new rules take a long time to sink in.

Equally though I feel I am adjusting to a lot of people when they spend ages thinking about moves. Makes me want to strangle them, but I keep quiet and let them get on.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
On one hand, I have no problems helping other people out moving stuff. On the other hand, I'm one of those people whose hand will come within two feet of someone else's model and a piece of it (the model, not my hand) will just fall off. So, I'm happy to help, but very leery of doing so for fear of breaking other people's toys.


Perhaps worth finding them a second to move for them. I have terrible coordination so would worry about that. Personally I would see if I could find someone to do it for them. Both means they can be sure the other person won't have any bias in what they are doing (the odd unintended mm etc) and I won't accidentally break something.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Black Templar High Marshall





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Adjustable height tables as part of inclusive gaming?

A table you can stand at and play might not be ideal for a wheel chair, or someone who needs to sit down.

Maybe have option of a table that's adjustable some how to cater for others. It can be a rgular height normaly, and changed if needed for someone. That or a low fold out table etc.

You may only need one and a chair or two but could make a huge difference to someone else.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.  
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





cornwall

We used to have a young chap with motor neuron disease who would come and play he would bet that if you won he would get you a pack of beers or something and if you lost you would paint up one of his units for him (he supplied the paint ) ..most people should of noticed that his army was 90% painted , he used a laser pointer so his dad knew where he wanted the units moved to and a special dice tower his dad made him
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 jhe90 wrote:
Adjustable height tables as part of inclusive gaming?

A table you can stand at and play might not be ideal for a wheel chair, or someone who needs to sit down.

Maybe have option of a table that's adjustable some how to cater for others. It can be a rgular height normaly, and changed if needed for someone. That or a low fold out table etc.

You may only need one and a chair or two but could make a huge difference to someone else.


Just go with low tables , you can always sit down
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

I think that the hobby is rare enough that you don't need to pre-make special accommodations. (Though doing so would be very cool of you.)

That being said, if someone with a disability IS playing, you should probably ask "Hey, do you want any help while we're playing?" and then just accept their answer, whether it's "Yes please-can you do X and Y for me?" or "Hell no!"

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think that the hobby is rare enough that you don't need to pre-make special accommodations. (Though doing so would be very cool of you.)

That being said, if someone with a disability IS playing, you should probably ask "Hey, do you want any help while we're playing?" and then just accept their answer, whether it's "Yes please-can you do X and Y for me?" or "Hell no!"


Just as a thought exercise, who should be doing the asking? The player with the special accommodation need or the opponent?

With sensitivities to perceived slights at an all-time high, I think the player in need of accommodation should speak up first, rather than wait for an offer by their opponent.

Otherwise the disabled player might misinterpret the offer for assistance as some sort of patronizing ableism. Or am I over thinking this?

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




You're overthinking it. There's no absolute answer. Every need and every situation is different.
   
Made in gb
Legendary Black Templar High Marshall





avoiding the lorax on Crion

stroller wrote:You're overthinking it. There's no absolute answer. Every need and every situation is different.


dalezzz wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
Adjustable height tables as part of inclusive gaming?

A table you can stand at and play might not be ideal for a wheel chair, or someone who needs to sit down.

Maybe have option of a table that's adjustable some how to cater for others. It can be a rgular height normaly, and changed if needed for someone. That or a low fold out table etc.

You may only need one and a chair or two but could make a huge difference to someone else.


Just go with low tables , you can always sit down



True, plus its probably good opportunity to sit down on the other players movement phase etc and rest your feet too. Inclusive and comfortable.

And on over thinking. Yeah, probably. I mean that offering say before a game.
You need any help?

Most people just say, yeah thanks or no thanks Il be ok to do it myself.
Being English with about a few sorries lol.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 21:02:11


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

Maybe I am over thinking it.

The idea struck me, though, that some disabled players may not want help immediately offered as it would imply they aren't self sufficient. From a purely, "I don't want to put my foot in my mouth" perspective, I think I'd rather be asked to help, rather than assume the other person needs my help, and offer it when it isn't desired.


   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Maybe I am over thinking it.

The idea struck me, though, that some disabled players may not want help immediately offered as it would imply they aren't self sufficient. From a purely, "I don't want to put my foot in my mouth" perspective, I think I'd rather be asked to help, rather than assume the other person needs my help, and offer it when it isn't desired.



That's fine. Though realistically, we tend to game with the same group of people more often than not, so you can probably ask just once for someone who's disabled, and remember their answer.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 JNAProductions wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Maybe I am over thinking it.

The idea struck me, though, that some disabled players may not want help immediately offered as it would imply they aren't self sufficient. From a purely, "I don't want to put my foot in my mouth" perspective, I think I'd rather be asked to help, rather than assume the other person needs my help, and offer it when it isn't desired.



That's fine. Though realistically, we tend to game with the same group of people more often than not, so you can probably ask just once for someone who's disabled, and remember their answer.


For an established group, sure. For some people it is more common to have pick up games with random strangers. In those cases a person lacks prior knowledge of the other person's preferences.

Just saying, the desire to accommodate and help is a noble one, but there is a thin line between helpful and condescending and its a good idea to be aware of when help is need/wanted and when it isn't.

   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






My FLGS has a player who has a wonderful converted army thats fully painted - except it's a horde army with 200~ models. The army looks great - except he has trouble moving around the table and reaching. I can't really guess his weight, but he's at least in the 400-500lb?? area. How the tables are set up - he can't really squeeze easily behind one. He's forced to play at the short end of the table and can't easily wiggle in-between tables.

It's a regular occurrence that other players move his models. This is tolerable because every game is a great game and his body odor is nonexistent for someone his size. A jolly fellow - you dont even care that you're moving his models and so on. A TFG or a pick up game couldn't really play him without getting flustered - but he's playing 10x Vehicles Sisters of Battle or Foot Guard. His friend bought him oval movement trays for some of his units - this helped.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 15:18:04




 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Stevefamine wrote:
My FLGS has a player who has a wonderful converted army thats fully painted - except it's a horde army with 200~ models. The army looks great - except he has trouble moving around the table and reaching. I can't really guess his weight, but he's at least in the 400-500lb?? area. How the tables are set up - he can't really squeeze easily behind one. He's forced to play at the short end of the table and can't easily wiggle in-between tables.

It's a regular occurrence that other players move his models. This is tolerable because every game is a great game and his body odor is nonexistent for someone his size. A jolly fellow - you dont even care that you're moving his models and so on. A TFG or a pick up game couldn't really play him without getting flustered - but he's playing 10x Vehicles Sisters of Battle or Foot Guard. His friend bought him oval movement trays for some of his units - this helped.


That's nice.

I'd like to say that-this thread is just nice. People looking out for others, and concerned about making sure everyone has a good experience.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Taciturn Dark Angles Company Master





Melbourne .au

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Maybe I am over thinking it.

The idea struck me, though, that some disabled players may not want help immediately offered as it would imply they aren't self sufficient. From a purely, "I don't want to put my foot in my mouth" perspective, I think I'd rather be asked to help, rather than assume the other person needs my help, and offer it when it isn't desired.


Just be causal, open and friendly. "Hey mate, just let me know if you want a hand with anything."

While ASD can sometimes affect people's ability to read emotions, it's not always the case (not everyone with ASD "is Sheldon"). People with a physical disability are just as likely to be able to tell if you're being genuine or a dick as any one of the rest of us. There's a bloke based at my work with Cerebral Palsy who is (mostly) wheelchair bound. (He can crawl, not walk). The trick is to treat the other guy like a person with a disabilty rather than a disabled person. So basically, person first, don't overthink and get caught up in it. People who get aggro with you for being genuine generally have their own issues.

   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut



France

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
On one hand, I have no problems helping other people out moving stuff. On the other hand, I'm one of those people whose hand will come within two feet of someone else's model and a piece of it (the model, not my hand) will just fall off. So, I'm happy to help, but very leery of doing so for fear of breaking other people's toys.


Same, i am like i don't touch your models without permissions, so i expect you to do the same, That's really a pain when some kiddo go look and start touching your minis without even asking.

And i prefer don't touch people models because i don't want to break them.

40: 10 000 Orks, 3000 Tau, 2000 Deathwatch
AOS: 2000 Kharadrons Overlords 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Cheltenham, UK

Accommodating the disabled in any environment is an interesting topic and it's great to hear such a positive response. I thought some of you might be interested to know more about the legal obligations to provide "reasonable adjustments", at least as they pertain to the UK.

Most people are aware that employers are obliged to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate disabled employees, customers and visitors. But what is less well understood is what is meant by "disabled" and what is meant by "reasonable adjustments".

A disability is any chronic - i.e. persistent - condition that be inherent (such as dyslexia) or acquired (such as Type 2 Diabetes) which leaves an individual less able than they would be in the absence of the condition. As a result, the definition is extremely broad. There is a long-running argument as to whether obesity, for example, should or should not be considered a disability and the law shows that, under certain circumstances, it must be treated as such.

"Reasonable adjustments" meanwhile, are not clearly defined in legislation or caselaw, but they are understood to be steps that are within the power of the organization to provide without suffering meaningful business impact. Naturally, therefore, larger and wealthier organizations are under a greater obligation to deliver reasonable adjustments than smaller, less-wealthy ones. For example, a small business based on the second storey of a building with no lift might consider making the changes necessary to accommodate wheelchair users to be unreasonable. A multinational corporation, meanwhile, that owns its own buildings, could not argue that accommodating a wheelchair user was unreasonable.

So far, so ho-hum.

But how does this apply in a wargaming context? Well, most wargaming takes place in private establishments (homes), in rented facilities (clubs) and in commercial venues (retailers).

If you operate an organized club - as opposed to an ad hoc gathering of friends - in any venue, private or rented, you are expected to make reasonable adjustments if you are asked to do so by someone who would like to access that facility. But the extent to which your must accommodate those requests - i.e. to consider them "reasonable" - is proportionate to your means. If the adjustments are such that they would put the existence of the club in jeopardy (by requiring a change in venue or purchase greater than the club's disposable assets) then you can legally decline. If they are, however, within your ability (such as giving some leeway on club rules about tantrums to the guy with impulse-control issues as a result of a brain injury) then you are obliged to do so and could be held liable for a substantial fine if you fail to meet that obligation.

If you are a business-owner, the obligation is naturally going to be greater.

The good news is that the scientific evidence is strong that businesses and communities that take active steps to accommodate those with disabilities tend to do better in the long run than those than do not. Improving access to a retail space, for example, doesn't just help wheelchair users but all sorts of people with mobility issues, such as older people or parents managing buggies/pushchairs or just customers laden down with the hundreds of pounds worth of stock they just bought from you!

Clubs and communities also benefit from encouraging a diverse population. News of the club and its positive welcome spreads more widely and its reputation is bolstered. Newcomers are more likely to see "someone like me" and therefore feel encouraged to remain and return.

But if you don't feel you can make accommodations, don't worry. Again, evidence suggests that business that have an open discussion with those with physical needs still gain the benefit of a "halo effect" just from having the conversation, even if the adjustments requested weren't possible.

Finally, if you just like to meet up with your buddies once in a while and throw some dice, you don't need to worry about this at all. Private gatherings and ad hoc meet-ups aren't covered by the law.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

Excellent post, precinctomega. Thanks for shedding light on some of the UK requirements for accommodation.

 precinctomega wrote:
If they are, however, within your ability (such as giving some leeway on club rules about tantrums to the guy with impulse-control issues as a result of a brain injury) then you are obliged to do so and could be held liable for a substantial fine if you fail to meet that obligation.


This caught my eye. I am curious if you know how much of an obligation is required by law to accommodate someone like this example (brain injury causing impulse-control issues) if that person's behavior has a negative effect on the harmony of the club?

Most accommodations don't inconvenience others, but having to endure tantrums, outbursts, or throwing of objects, out of fear of a fine, seems like an unfair burden to place on the rest of the club.

   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 CURNOW wrote:
We used to have a young chap with motor neuron disease who would come and play he would bet that if you won he would get you a pack of beers or something and if you lost you would paint up one of his units for him (he supplied the paint ) ..most people should of noticed that his army was 90% painted , he used a laser pointer so his dad knew where he wanted the units moved to and a special dice tower his dad made him


Ha get hustled

thats funny.
   
 
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