Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So the WK rules leaked. It has basically the same Stats as the Imperial Knight....but without the 5++ to ranged attacks naturally.....for about 80 more points total
To add insult to injury, the "basic" loadout of the WK is now over 500pts.

I will say that the added wounds will be nice in this addition, but combined with ANY weapon being able to wound them and SOOOOOO many weapons dealing multiple damage, this is really a wash.
Another "good" thing is that the Heavy Wraithcannon is now 2 shots each, so it's more reliable.

But it still sucks that when the WK first came out, it was a 6W MC for 240pts (so I bought 2 of them). Now it's a 24W 'Monster' for over twice that cost, in an Edition that doesn't take much to strip all those wounds.
I used to love taking 2 of these in their 6th ed version as my primary anti-vehicle. I was hoping that GW would tone them down back to that level so I could start using the pair again.
But at over twice the cost, I really don't see that happening. In fact, taking even 1 seems like more of a liability since EVERY multi-damage weapon will be pointed at it.

Combine all this with the fact that adding just 1 WK gives no Command points, but taking 3 gives you +3. So do I take only 1, or make them my entire army?

-

It was always severely undercosted so to me (I have two to guard a revenant as part of a wraith host) this is a welcome change since it should hopefully make it more fair to the opponent if you wanted to run more than one.

Costs more than a Tesseract Vault.... finally. It does a tonne more damage, so it makes sense. Seems a bit steep, but it might be better on the table now than it seems on paper, so maybe one will be enough?

I still plan to use my knight with suncannon/scattershield. I have a scatter laser added too although I may switch this for a starcannon or 2. Will chew through high armoured targets quite well, especially dealing multiple damage per wound. I have wraithguard to do the heavy hitting vs vehicles, so needed the suncannon to dish out more wounds.

Tbf it seems the cast majority of things outside of troops are getting a price hike. Even terminators who were garbage whilst the WK was OP. So if terminators do...

Another thing to consider is that many multidamage weapons have also seen a price hike so we may not see as many of these on the table compared to their 7th ed versions.

WK always needed balancing so I wouldn't be too worried.

No offense but good riddance.

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

Well, given the fact that many, many units are also getting price hikes (not just Eldar, but every army) this could even out and be far more balanced, so I'll try to keep optimistic

The average point level in my area was 1850. Maybe now it will be 2000, so a few points increases here and there might not be so bad.

Also, maybe it being so expensive will get players to shut up when I take the 2 models that I bought AS A PAIR back in 6th ed and lovingly converted as Wraithlords riding Vypers like jetbikes. The fact that taking 2 (and not 3) gives me 0 Command points might also help me take the models I want to take without being TFG.

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

Offense is taken. I'm sorry that you had bad experiences, but please do not revel in this. Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.
This is like double punishment. The first was the ridicule received for taking 1 WK in 7E (and having to shelf my other), the second is now having the price so high, that taking 2 isn't even a good choice.

-

As someone starting eldar in 8th and only knowing a bit about 7th, it seemed insanely cheap in 7th. So this is probably more accurate. Was it nerfed, sure, but it's no longer a "must take this" option.

New point level might even be 3k. Who knows?

So delicious

Eldar tears? I'll reserve comment for now.

Martel732 wrote:
New point level might even be 3k. Who knows?

A Horror infantry model costs 2 points for a guy with 1 wound and a 4+ invulnerable save. A Razorback still costs just 82 or whatever in the default option. A Dakkafex runs you about 100 points? Some things went up a lot. Some things didn't.

having now just seen the new price list for Orks....yeah feth the Wraithknight. My stompa, which won't even hit anything with its weapons now that blast is gone, costs 900pts.

Ohh, and our wonderful Battlewagons, of which I own 3, went up in price by 50% and still doesn't come with any weapons or equipment.. And the cost of our basic upgrades went through the fething roof. A standard Rokkit Launcha went from 5pts (over priced) to 12pts. So now my old build of a battlewagon with 4 rokkitz went from 130pts to...209.

 jeff white wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No offense but good riddance.

This.

This +2


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a more serious note they should be costed so that taking two in a standard sized game is prohibitively expensive.

I feel for you, it sucks seeing something you used get trashed.

My immediate reaction when looking at the Grey Knights leaks was to throw up in my mouth a little. They don't look that good at first glance. My guess is they'll make a great auxiliary force, taken to get Gate of Infinity on the table (hello, first turn charge).

Anyway, I keep telling myself that if this makes the game more balanced, then it's a good thing.

I haven't been able to field my wraith knights in a long time I bought 3 to guard my revenant back when they were first released. Honestly I doubt the revenant will cost more than 2 of them in this edition so I'm likely just to shelf the little fellows indefinetly. Unless the revenant is a sad boy to.

Now I know many people are happy to see them needed but the sun/star loadout costs 600 points for d3 wound 2d6 shots at s6 it honestly seems weaker than the avenger or knight battle cannon but does cost 100 points more for a lot less Dakka.

The sword variant might still be the best as wraithcannons look kind of dull with d6 wounds. Last edition a single wraithcannons shot could instant kill a knight now you can only do that if all 4 shots hit wound he fails 4 saves and you roll 4 6's for damage. Definetly a huge firepower decrease in that mode (Not that D was super fair but that is a huge nerf). The sword at least still cleaves for 6 wounds straight but you might find yourself struggling to down a land raider as you only do about 10-11 wounds to it where as last edition you basically required 4 1s to not kill it.

So all in all it seems to have eaten a bunch of nerfs the suncannon is the only weapon that looks to have gotten better
(Made a mistake here it actually ate a huge nerf to as it only hurts t4 on a 3+ now 2d6 hits isnt much better than 3 templates ap-3 is worse than ap2 only improvement is d3 dmg for loss of instant death vs t3 but d3 damage is worse than a normal starcannons 3 for it's insane 118 points you would get 4 starcannons which are better in every way) but it costs more points than 2 wraithcannons and you still have to buy a shield to. It seems tankier I guess but loss of fnp is also big it also won't benefit from strength from death anymore either.

The wraith knight is... garbage. There is no nice way to put it. The basic wraith knight costs 402 points standard, while a chaos questor knight costs 320, with the same statline. Included in this cost are the stomp weapons for both, the basic wraithbone fists on the wraith knight, and the ion shield on the questor knight. So the wraithknight is paying 80 points more for an alternative melee attack of marginal improvement over the one both knights have, and doesn't get any invulnerable save. Then we factor in wargear.

A shooty wraith knight can grab 2 starcannons, the suncannon, and the scattershield. The Questor knight can get two gattling cannons and a rocket pod. How does this turn out? The questor knight costs 559 points, the wraith knight costs 600. The questor knight also has more fire power in every single situation, even against high armor enemies where the superior AP of the wraith knights weapons helps even things out. Against lots of smaller enemies, or lower armor enemies, or enemies with invulnerable saves, the gap just grows wider. The wraith knight is less vulnerable in melee, as his invulnerable save applies there, so that is something.

So maybe melee works out better for wraith knight? A plain melee loadout (without support weapons) runs at 487 points for the wraith knight. For the questor, fist and sword bring him up to 389. The wraith knight's advantages are: wounding toughness 8 on a 2+ without having to take the -1 to hit penalty, and the invulnerable save in melee. The questor's advantage is being able to toss dead monsters/vehicles at other units, and the 100 point price drop.

So generally.... wraith knight isn't good. You can kinda make a case for melee wraith knight being less vulnerable to powerfists/chainfists than questor, but I'm still not sure that's worth the 100 points (particularly as power fists it'll only be a 5+ save compared to a 6+, and chainfists aren't that common). The ranged variations can typically just walk out of combat and shoot the unit, meaning one turn of relative vulnerability at most.

Note this is just comparing the two units, I have no idea if either of them are any good overall.

I personally see a few reasons as to why the Wraithknight, when compared in a vacuum, might seem to cost more than the Imperial Knight:

The Wraithknight is not a vehicle. This is rather important because currently we don't know the restrictions and benefits of being a monstrous creature over a vehicle. This also opens up the Wraithknight for a variety of buffs that would be excluded from the Questor Knight. If Psychic powers and command points are anything like buffs before, we will probably see a lot more buffs on non-vehicles than there will be for vehicles. In addition, the Wraithknight has the Spirit Host keyword, which no doubt allows it to gain further benefits. The Imperial Knights also only share one keyword with their allies, while the Wraithknight shares at least two (three if you use a pure spirit host army). I suspect this may also come into play.

The Wraithknight and Questor Knight both start with the same movement, but the Questor Knight (or at least the chaos variant) rapidly loses movement as it takes damage, while the Wraithknight doesn't. In addition, the paid-for Scatter Shield applies no matter what phase it is, while the standard Ion Shield only protects during the shooting phase.

So to me, it seems like the Wraithknight will be a lot more dependent on synergies with your army while the IK will be more of a lone wolf, trading potential benefits for a cheaper cost. Eldar were always suppose to be about synergies and hard to use units, so this is just in line with what they should be. WKs in past editions were little more than "I win" buttons, not really needing much skill to use (especially in 7E, where they were basically invincible and can cleave through units of equal points or more with little effort alone). That said, currently the Wraithknight only looks bad in comparison to the IK; there's nothing to say that both units would be drastically OP for their points cost in the new game.

Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.

... When was this? Because I'd really like to know!

Unless you mean 8th, because they've never been "Not that bad" since their introduction.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.

... When was this? Because I'd really like to know!

Unless you mean 8th, because they've never been "Not that bad" since their introduction.

In 6E when they first came out. They were good, but were basically just Wraithlords with twice the wounds and movement. For twice the cost (imagine that). The guns were a whopping 2 S10 shots.
The synergized well with Serpents (which were broken at the time), but on there own, WKs were not the huge problem they became in 7E
Most of those problems had to do with the bonuses of GMCs and the WK not really paying for them.

The WK is now paying for those bonuses....without getting the GMC bonuses. Everyone can now fall back. Everyone can fire weapons at different targets.
I'd gladly pay 600pts 2 WKs with 12W each (so 300ppm) instead of 1 WK with 24W

On the bright side, at least Grav isn't so bad now and Rhinos went from Free to 70ppm (and Drop Pods are 100ppm)
So at least it seems like everyone is paying for stuff now

-

SilverAlien wrote:
The Questor knight can get two gattling cannons and a rocket pod. How does this turn out? The questor knight costs 559 points, the wraith knight costs 600.

Note this is just comparing the two units, I have no idea if either of them are any good overall.

At these points costs you shoulds include the Khorne Lord of Skulls. Maxed out with Hades Gatling & Gorestorm it costs 723. Swap for Skullhurler and Ichor cannon and you get it down 621. It always keeps the Great Cleaver which I think is the highest strength attack in the game right now at strength 20. It's attacks go up as it gets wounded and at the lowest threshold it's potentially 8 str10 -4ap 6dmg attacks for a potential of 48 points of damage.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4IGo22sDo4zREVPX2stNWZoN2M

 Galef wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.

... When was this? Because I'd really like to know!

Unless you mean 8th, because they've never been "Not that bad" since their introduction.

In 6E when they first came out. They were good, but were basically just Wraithlords with twice the wounds and movement. For twice the cost (imagine that). The guns were a whopping 2 S10 shots.
The synergized well with Serpents (which were broken at the time), but on there own, WKs were not the huge problem they became in 7E
Most of those problems had to do with the bonuses of GMCs and the WK not really paying for them.

The WK is now paying for those bonuses....without getting the GMC bonuses. Everyone can now fall back. Everyone can fire weapons at different targets.
I'd gladly pay 600pts 2 WKs with 12W each (so 300ppm) instead of 1 WK with 24W

On the bright side, at least Grav isn't so bad now and Rhinos went from Free to 70ppm (and Drop Pods are 100ppm)
So at least it seems like everyone is paying for stuff now

-

BA were always paying for Rhinos.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I personally see a few reasons as to why the Wraithknight, when compared in a vacuum, might seem to cost more than the Imperial Knight:

The Wraithknight is not a vehicle. This is rather important because currently we don't know the restrictions and benefits of being a monstrous creature over a vehicle. This also opens up the Wraithknight for a variety of buffs that would be excluded from the Questor Knight. If Psychic powers and command points are anything like buffs before, we will probably see a lot more buffs on non-vehicles than there will be for vehicles. In addition, the Wraithknight has the Spirit Host keyword, which no doubt allows it to gain further benefits. The Imperial Knights also only share one keyword with their allies, while the Wraithknight shares at least two (three if you use a pure spirit host army). I suspect this may also come into play.

The Wraithknight and Questor Knight both start with the same movement, but the Questor Knight (or at least the chaos variant) rapidly loses movement as it takes damage, while the Wraithknight doesn't. In addition, the paid-for Scatter Shield applies no matter what phase it is, while the standard Ion Shield only protects during the shooting phase.

So to me, it seems like the Wraithknight will be a lot more dependent on synergies with your army while the IK will be more of a lone wolf, trading potential benefits for a cheaper cost. Eldar were always suppose to be about synergies and hard to use units, so this is just in line with what they should be. WKs in past editions were little more than "I win" buttons, not really needing much skill to use (especially in 7E, where they were basically invincible and can cleave through units of equal points or more with little effort alone). That said, currently the Wraithknight only looks bad in comparison to the IK; there's nothing to say that both units would be drastically OP for their points cost in the new game.

So far we haven't really seen any rules that rofl stomp vehicles soecifically. Though poison weapons will now hurt a wraith knight on 4s but a vehicle only on 6s. That's a big deal in favour of the knight. We've also seen all the current command points neither help either out more. Psychic powers eldar have some not many and all the warlocks ones can't actually affect a wraith knight at all. They only really have 2 buff powers and you'll need to spend a 200 point hq getting them and you still have to succeed and be close enough to use the powers which are short ranged (the powers aren't bad but not nearly as good as shrouding or invisibility) we also don't have any spirit host buffs (besides the spirit seems hurts anyways near this.model better one) currently or Crawftworld buffs. Also the imperium key word is super huge and there are a lot of imperium buffs out there to.

 Galef wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Some of us just really liked the model and started playing them when they weren't that bad.

... When was this? Because I'd really like to know!

Unless you mean 8th, because they've never been "Not that bad" since their introduction.

In 6E when they first came out. They were good, but were basically just Wraithlords with twice the wounds and movement. For twice the cost (imagine that). The guns were a whopping 2 S10 shots.
The synergized well with Serpents (which were broken at the time), but on there own, WKs were not the huge problem they became in 7E
Most of those problems had to do with the bonuses of GMCs and the WK not really paying for them.

The WK is now paying for those bonuses....without getting the GMC bonuses. Everyone can now fall back. Everyone can fire weapons at different targets.
I'd gladly pay 600pts 2 WKs with 12W each (so 300ppm) instead of 1 WK with 24W

On the bright side, at least Grav isn't so bad now and Rhinos went from Free to 70ppm (and Drop Pods are 100ppm)
So at least it seems like everyone is paying for stuff now

-

the absolute best part of this edition, no more free stuff. the gladius can die in a fire. tired of 1500 point games including 4-500 points in free razerbacks

I agree. Gladius can die in a fire.

At least GW had the decency to give each Heavy Wraithcannon 2 shots. Nothing was more frustrating than targeting something just to miss that 1 hit roll.

And while we are adding things to the fire, let's throw D-weapons on there. Distort weapons look a lot more balanced now.

 Galef wrote:
At least GW had the decency to give each Heavy Wraithcannon 2 shots. Nothing was more frustrating than targeting something just to miss that 1 hit roll.

I liked it better at 1 shot, but given its new price, this is acceptable.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I personally see a few reasons as to why the Wraithknight, when compared in a vacuum, might seem to cost more than the Imperial Knight:

The Wraithknight is not a vehicle. This is rather important because currently we don't know the restrictions and benefits of being a monstrous creature over a vehicle. This also opens up the Wraithknight for a variety of buffs that would be excluded from the Questor Knight. If Psychic powers and command points are anything like buffs before, we will probably see a lot more buffs on non-vehicles than there will be for vehicles. In addition, the Wraithknight has the Spirit Host keyword, which no doubt allows it to gain further benefits. The Imperial Knights also only share one keyword with their allies, while the Wraithknight shares at least two (three if you use a pure spirit host army). I suspect this may also come into play.

The full core rules are leaked so please stop using "we don't know".

Because I do know the difference between vehicles and monstrous creatures: fewer than 10 weapons in the game have more/less effect on vehicles compared to monstrous creatures. Mostly poison and haywire weapons. In all honesty, it's not a huge deal (haywire weapons aren't that great at killing anything as tough as a knight, even with their boosts)..

However, the point about synergies is a good one. The spirit seer can buff them, and runes of fate can be cast on the wraith knight. If any such synergy appears for the knight, i didn't see it.

However, I'm still not convinced this makes the wraith knight worth it

 D6Damager wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
The Questor knight can get two gattling cannons and a rocket pod. How does this turn out? The questor knight costs 559 points, the wraith knight costs 600.

Note this is just comparing the two units, I have no idea if either of them are any good overall.

At these points costs you shoulds include the Khorne Lord of Skulls. Maxed out with Hades Gatling & Gorestorm it costs 723. Swap for Skullhurler and Ichor cannon and you get it down 621. It always keeps the Great Cleaver which I think is the highest strength attack in the game right now at strength 20. It's attacks go up as it gets wounded and at the lowest threshold it's potentially 8 str10 -4ap 6dmg attacks for a potential of 48 points of damage.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4IGo22sDo4zREVPX2stNWZoN2M

This is in fact why I am still unsure. Note that, for a mere 100 points more than the shooty wraith knight, 708 total, you can grab the Khorne lord of skulls with hades gatling cannon and ichor cannon (He's slow enough (I prefer the 48" range of either 12" weapon).

At that point, the khorne knight puts out more damage in melee and at range than either wraith knight variant, has more wounds, can fight and shoot all of it's guns in the same round, rather than just withdrawing and firing, regenerates wounds, and can benefit from significantly better synergy than the wraithknight. He can grab the same reroll bonuses or better using a chaos lord/abbadon, and a warpsmith can heal him each round (which, with his own regeneration, makes him functionally immortal to all but the heaviest concentrated fire). He can even benefit from dmeon synergy, albiet most don't do alot for him (skarbrand is nice, everything else is meh). He does suffer from being slower and losing movement speed faster, but his guns never degrade in power, and with 48" range should be able to make an impact all game long. His stength going down as his attacks go up is, if anything, a benefit, as strength 20 vs strength 10 will still wound most things on 2+, it'll be a decrease to 3+ at worst, and he gains attacks as well.

Consider how great the Khorne Lord of Skulls looks for a 100 points more than a shooty wraith lord, then consider how much worse the wraith lord looks by comparison, costing 50-100 points more than the knight, yet often barely outperforming it. The wraith knight just can't catch a break, none of these comparisons make it look particularly good.

Spiritseer grants re rolls to hit for spirithost models. The wording is kinda weird (and I only took a glance because work) so I don't know if it means the seer has to be within 6" of the Knight or if it's 6" next to the enemy (if it's the latter, it would be rather useless).

As for keywords, the IK will share the Imperium keyword with a lot of units but that's basically the only one they'll share unless they're only paired up with other Knights. Wraithknights, on the other hand, will share Craftworld, Aeldari, and Asuryani keywords. If their promises that more shared keywords unlocks more benefits, then Wraithknights will fit into keyworded armylists far better than the IK will.

It looks like whether or not keywords will drastically affect the game will affect the performance of the Wraithknight.

EDIT: I personally haven't had a chance to look through the core rules yet. I'm still slowly digesting everything.

EDIT 2: Also that loadout for the Questor Knight is invalid. For one a Heavy Stubber at minimum is required, and from what I glanced, the loyalist Questor Knight can't take two of the same arm cannons, so one of them has to either be the Thermal Cannon or a RF Battle Cannon (which comes with another heavy stubber). The Renegade Knight is the one that can take two of the same thing but it loses out on some keywords. At this point I seriously think that GW may have banked on keywords playing a bigger role in the game and that could have factored into the point cost. Whether or not they have overestimated will have to be seen when the game is fully released and the community at hand has tried it out.