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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Let's talk about Dark Angels in the brand new Warhammer 40k! They're in this Index: http://imgur.com/a/KdV3Q

I'll start with a review of what's in my collection!

Spoiler:

UNITS that are now much better and i will field:

* Deathwing Knights are the stars of the faction. They effectively pay 18 points for a mace that's generally better than a Thunder Hammer, and Storm Shields keep them on the table.

* Belial and a Deathwing Ancient are the best characters to join Deathwing Knights, nearly doubling their damage output.

* But if mobility isn't a factor, Asmodai is the star buffing HQ, giving all Dark Angels infantry the same bonuses Belial and the Ancient give the Deathwing. The +1 Attack even stacks! And bonus -1 Leadership to enemies.

* Azreal is probably the best Chapter Master (who isn't also a Primarch.) He's best deployed managing a parking lot in the backfield. Park him next to Dreadnoughts (including Venerable and Mortis!), Razorbacks, Predators, etc. Dark Angels in his 6" bubble re-roll misses and are protected by the 4++. See this recent post: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/727176.page#9478048

* Speaking of, Dreadnoughts are excellent shooting weapon platforms. 8 Wounds is tough but doesn't degrade. Note that upgrading to a Venerable is worth the premium cost. And consider a Forgeworld Mortis for all the Lascannons.

* Scouts are still an incredible value. Conscripts wish they could deploy 9" away from enemies.

* The Darkshroud's -1 to hit bubble is even better than it first sounds. It effectively makes nearby Dark Angels 1/3 more durable against BS 4+ shooting and 25% more durable against 3+ shooting. A must for any parking lot or Ravenwing army.

UNITS i want to playtest and give a chance:

* Ravenwing still offer mobility, we'll see how valuable that is in new missions. Sammeal is good in this context.

* Dark Angel librarians must use Interromancy which is not as good as Librarius (which I think is OP). But Interromancy can help against powerful units like Knights. ditto Ezekiel who finally gets an invulnerable save. needs playtesting.

* Deathwing Terminators are not as good as Deathwing Knights and you're not gonna convince me otherwise. You're paying for those power fists so they must reach melee to make their points back, and Knights do Melee better. No, Storm bolters and assault cannons do not make them as good: other units can shoot hoards more efficiently (hint: razorbacks and dreads.)

* Missile Launchers are now very good, and Devastator Squads may be the best way to field them, but they need range and cover for protection.

* Assault Squads and Company veterans are worth considering. A veteran with two free chainswords has 4 Attacks!

* land raider doesn't have a clear advantage over Rhinos or razorbacks now, and if i want to park a monster on an objective i'll bring a Knight. The lascannon Land Raider may still may have a place. The Crusader is not enough of a threat once empty, and the Redeemer will find itself unable to shoot when mooks run up and tag it.

* Not yet sure how valuable flyers are, but they probably have a niche somewhere.

UNITS that will stay on the shelf:

* tactical squads still worse than scouts unless I'm totally missing the mark on transports. I mean they may compliment razorbacks if they're as good as i think?

* Predators?? like razorbacks but without transport and much more expensive for no good reason.

* Inceptors, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are all too expensive for now, but could fill broad niches with points decreases.

* land speeders: 85 points is 20 too many, compare to razorback or dreadnought value.

* dreadnoughts with short-range weapons can't ride in normal drop pods, and the Forgeworld pods are too expensive.

* who would i even want to put in a drop pod??

* The -1 To Hit when moving with Heavy weapons means the Attack Bike can't leverage its mobility. Ditto the Landspeeders.

* interrogator-chaplains not worth premium over chaplains (except Asmodai who's incredible.)


What am I wrong about? I'll try to update this OP if we reach some consensus.


 labmouse42 wrote:
I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.
Spoiler:

Why Deathwing?
There are a few reasons the deathwing army is the best 'terminator' army IMHO. It is not the cheapest -- that goes to CSM terminators. Deathwatch terminators can bring a lot more firepower by stacking on 3 heavy weapons per 5 terminators.
Deathwing shines in it's ability to benefit from fantastic auras, and the ability to mix and match weapons in it's deathwing squads. Deathwing knights are the superior assault terminator unit.


Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round. Even more marines are prone to failing badly given those odds, where deathwing just don't care.
The way 8th edition was made, there is an advantage to running large units. You can already split fire, you reduce your drops, and you make it harder to give up first blood.
Large units can also increase your footprint, making it easier to take advantage of auras.


Azrael
This guy is amazing for his buff auras. Not many units give reroll all hits. First glance shows that Pedro and Marneus are the only others.
Azrael also gives a 4++ to all models near him. This is amazing with dreads. The reason for this is that most weapons that can hurt the T7 at range have a greater rend than a -1.
Take an enemy LC. Instead of saving on a 6+, the dread has a 4+ to make the save, greatly increasing it's overall durability.
This does not help against massive small arms fire, like conscripts blobs shooting at the dread, but those are not the big threat to the dread -- multi-wound weapons are.

As an added bonus, Azrael is a beatstick. Swinging 5 times at STR 6, with -3 rend and D3 wounds is enough to make even daemon princes sweat.
He also comes with a combi-plas, just because he was not good enough by himself.

Overall, this guy is a 'must have' more many builds.


Belial
What I like about Belial is that he gives all Deathwing rerolls 'to hit'. If you are running lots of terminators or Librarians it's a nice advantage.
His Sword of Silence is also much better than it appears at first glance. It will be hitting 35/36 of the time. It also wounds non-vehicles on a 2+, making it great against enemy terminators, great daemons, etc. The -3 rend and 2 wounds is rock solid, meaning that Belial can pretty consistently throw wounds on a target.
Belial can also drop in with some knights if you are wanting to deep strike an assault force behind enemy lines.
Overall, he's a good choice. IMHO, Azrael is just a little better for only 40 more points -- but Belial is not a bad choice at all.


Asmodai & Deathwing Ancient
This guys are force multipliers if you are running deathwing units. Having both of them plus Belial/Azrael means that your deathwing become close combat monsters.
I showed some of the math earlier -- 9 powerfists/chainfists smashing with 4 attacks each hitting 75% of the time will wreck face. This is what it will do against a knight, for example.
(3/4 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 36 attacks * 2 wounds per attack = 22.5 wounds done. The power sword should pluck off another .61 of a wound.


Deathwing Apothecary
This guy runs you 75 points, and you can use him to restore 50 points deathwing models 50% of the time.
He will likely have ~4 turns to be effective in a game. (You might go first, you might not have any models to revive, etc)
This means you can expect him to bring back ~100 points of deathwing models. Since they come back at 1 wound it's not as good, but it's still not bad.
Effectively, this guy will pay for himself in most games, making the model effectively free.


Deathwing Champion
I'm not sold on this guy. If he is by the attack buffs, he's getting 7 attacks at STR 7, -4 AP, 2 DMG -- which can put some hurting on most targets.
The thing is, in today's meta of 150 conscripts -- it's just not that amazing. If the melta starts showing a lot more MEQ, then this guy becomes great fast. For example, it will rip apart bike squads.


Deathwing Terminators
Terminators have gotten so much better in 8th edition. The 2+ save is more valuable than it was before. They have also doubled in firepower and doubled in wounds.
8 storm bolters and 2 assault cannons within 12" of an enemy with Belial supporting results in 17.50 dead GEQ a turn. Fully buffed, they can also kill another 24.4 GEQ in assault, wiping 4/5 of a conscript blob in one round. Yes, those situations are very unlikely to happen in a real game, but the illustration is they have decent damage output. Not fantastic damage output like Scions, but decent.
These guys, in every way, are better than their imperial versions. They come with unforgiven, they can grab a 'watcher in the dark' for 5 points.
They also can swap out any model with a TH/SS or dual LC. This lets you mix/match your terminator squads to include a few TH/SS models inside. If the unit is hit by a plasma cannon, take the hit on the TH/SS termie. If it's from a heavy bolter, take it on a SB/PF termie.


Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.
The Mace of Absolution makes thunder hammers cry themselves to sleep. They are only -2 instead of -3 rend, but they are not -1 to hit. This means that they are slightly better against armor -- and cost 11 points less than the TH/SS terminator. The only target where the TH is better is against 2+ save targets, like Land Raiders or other terminators.
I've seen how effective the threat of 5 knights deep striking can be. It forces your enemy to adjust their lines, and I can see a spot for 5 of these guys in every army.


Dreadnoughts
Excellent fire platforms, given their ability to reroll to hits. Normally I advocate putting a DCCW on each one as to not waste the attacks -- but in a deathwing army there are enough power fists to where I think you can get away with not bringing them on these guys.
I really like these guys more than predators as fire platforms for their smaller base. Getting 5 of them wrapped around Azrael is very doable.


DarkShrounds
Imagine this is a force field around your units. The buff they provide is very solid as a -1 to hit will reduce the amount of incoming damage from 16.66% less to half. Smart opponents will just shoot the darkshround first.


UPDATE 2017-06-14 Warhammer Community Faction Focus article up for "non-codex" Space Marines, including Dark Angels: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

relevant bits:
I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the First Legion; the Dark Angels. My first miniature was a Dark Angels Captain from way back when. The Dark Angels have had a long and storied history in the lore but a bumpy ride in terms of their performance on the tabletop. They’ve often struggled to find their niche when compared to Chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves, who are fairly easily defined in comparison to Codex Chapters and have often been top contenders.

Dark Angels in new Warhammer 40,000 are simply exceptional. They have so many tools, so many different ways to play effectively, that the Dark Angels player’s biggest problem will be choosing which of his units to use! Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, is hands down one of my favourite characters in the game now. He’s got a plethora of tools with his only shortcoming being his relatively slow speed – but even that is easily mitigated by using a Transport vehicle. What he provides though, is fantastic. He gives Dark Angels models within 6″ a 4+ invulnerable save which by itself is incredible. But on top of that, as with other Chapter Masters, he gives a ‘re-roll misses’ aura that works in the Shooting and Fight phases for friendly Dark Angels. Additionally, he grants you a bonus Command Point and packs an almighty wallop in both shooting and melee.

He is just one of many character options available to the Dark Angels player as well. Dark Angels also have a host of specialised units to choose from. Deathwing Knights are one of my favourite melee units available to any Space Marines Chapter, and Black Knights as ever, will strike fear into your opponent with their vicious Plasma Talons and Corvus Hammers.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/04 17:47:14


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I can't read the pictures but I have read some rumors. I believe DW terminators don't take morale which is huge. Why can't Dreads with short range weapons ride in Drop Pods?

More Dakka!  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Soss wrote:
I can't read the pictures but I have read some rumors.
are you on mobile? try the Imgur app.
Soss wrote:
I believe DW terminators don't take morale which is huge.
Well, Morale checks add a D6 to how many models lost in one turn, then comparing to Leadership. Deathwing Sergeants have Ld 9, so if four models are lost and you roll a 6, that would remove a fifth model which is probably the last Sergeant model in that unit. This is not likely to happen, so immunity doesn't help much. There are some auras that reduce leadership by 1 and some psychic powers that reduce by 2, but I don't expect these in the meta.
Soss wrote:
Why can't Dreads with short range weapons ride in Drop Pods?
Drop Pods can now carry only Infantry, and cannot carry Centurions, Terminators, Jump Packs, or even the new Primaris marines. That leaves Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, and Characters.

I think long-range and even medium range dreads are viable (they're a cheaper Predator that can swing), but my poor multi-melta dreads are too slow to get within 12" of their targets.

Thanks for posting!

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Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant





.......Oh , that might means the Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought and Blood Angel Death Company Dread are now just trash tier unit........

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 09:38:45


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Neophyte2012 wrote:

.......Oh , that might means the Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought and Blood Angel Death Company Dread are now just trash tier unit........


Well, the BA Death Company and Furioso Dreads both have moves of 8" plus they can advance so they can move pretty quickly with 8"+D6" per turn, on top of which any faction that has access to the stormraven can carry a dreadnaught as well.

As for DA...

Well, i'm a Deathwing player and to me, it looks like they will stay shelved for another edition. Even with the buffs to storm bolters and assault cannons and 1 extra wound. that is not going to make terminators competitive. With the new armor modifiers, extra shooting, and mortal wounds out there, they are just going to be killed as fast or even faster than before. Further, the points cost went up for Deathwing terms and knights, and substantially went up for dreads and land raiders, so I guess they don't want people playing DW at all.

I was hoping for 2 things in this edition, 1. that Terminators got the buffs they needed to be competitive for the first time in the better part of a decade, and 2. assault armies were brought up to an even footing with shooty armies. 1 didn't happen at all, i'm still not sure about 2 yet. CC got some buffs, but so did shooting so....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 22:34:24


 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot






I still have hope for deathwing in this edition. Being able to port in 9" away is a nice boost. but I don't see how they are going to be good. It's hard to make out point costs though, everything seems all over the map.

The Darktalon is a hidden gem. Between the stasis bomb and the rift cannon, you'll be able to put out a decent number of mortals wounds. I think flyers will be surprisingly good at sneaking up on characters and the Darktalon is looking good at assassinating.

The interro-chap + interromancy powers will combo nicely. I see us being able to drop leadership of an enemy and then force them to fail tests hard. I am a bit sad we won't have access to the regular powers though.\

I'm not thrilled at price increase on landspeeders. I do think mobility will still be key, so they may work out. I'll use black knights because i love the models, but they aren't looking super good so far.

Overall I was torn between starting a new vanilla chapter with Primaris or sticking with 1st legion. I think we'll be good enough to compete and they left room for it to get better as well.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

My takeaways from reading the leaked stuff about Dark Angels (my primary army):
-Drop Pods are trash. They cost too many points and drop you too far away to do anything. Although meltaguns are still good at 9 inches; you just don't get the "2 dice and pick the best result" buff. So perhaps they could be okay to deliver squads for the alpha strike. We'll see.
-Deathwing are looking better than our previous two codexes (but that ain't saying much). The loss of Twinlinked weapons on the drop is sad but unsurprising (I was kinda hoping for double shots when they come in...). They don't cost too much more than they used to, and now they have 2 wounds.
-Ravenwing Black Knights look okay to me. The cost increase hurts a little, but they can now fire 2 shots at 18 inches, which they couldn't do before. The loss of our rerollable jinking is sad, but again unsurprising. Hey, at least they get 2 wounds, and Corvus Hammers hit harder than they did!
-The special characters: Azrael looks really good since he gives his invulnerable to every unit within 6", plus he's no slouch in combat and he gives an extra command point. Ezekiel is not nearly as good as he was before, but then I think that's true of most psykers now. Sammael looks like a solid choice for Ravenwing-heavy lists, and to me both versions of him are good, although Corvex might be better since Sableclaw can't hide like other characters. Asmodai looks as bad as ever unfortunately, but he did get Ezekiel's old +1 attack bonus for friendly Dark Angels near him. Belial might be the real winner here, as his cost is now more in line with his abilities, and his abilities are good (that Sword of Silence is a nasty piece of work!).
-The former Command Squad guys are interesting now, if a bit overcosted. Apothecaries are the winners here, with the ability to revive dead models. Champions are beastly (Blades of Caliban are AWESOME now!), but they cost a lot for what they do. Ancients seem very overcosted for what they bring to the table and will probably be doing shelf duty for me, at least until I see battle reports or something to demonstrate otherwise. The footslogging one might be okay since he lets dying models get off one more shooting or melee attack before they bite it.
-The flyers look even better this edition. That Avenger Mega Bolter on the Nephilim looks very good now, but the twin lascannon probably has its uses as well even if it is expensive. The Dark Talon looks insanely good! The cost of the flyers may still be an issue, though.
-The Darkshroud looks to be a lot less attractive now. The -1 to hit thing is nice, but it's overcosted.
-Land Speeders seem very overcosted. They are fairly powerful, but I'm not sure it's worth the points for such a fragile unit.
-Land Raiders went up in price, but they are tough. No more one-shotting them means they might actually be viable. I think Crusaders are probably the best since Hurricane bolters now shoot twice as many shots, but all of them are decent.
-Basic troops are about the same as they always were, except it might be a viable option to run a squad of 10 tactical marines now since heavies are not as hampered by moving. Sniper scouts are great for picking off enemy characters, and scouts in general are good cheap choices.
-It does seem that we have the option of taking Roboute Guilliman in our detachments since he shares 2 keywords (Imperium, Adeptus Astartes) with us. Not sure if this is a good choice or not as his reroll-hits ability only helps Smurfs.

Overall, I'm satisfied. I think we may have a greater variety of viable builds than before. One thing I'm kind of miffed about is that they didn't give us access to Contemptor Dreadnoughts. Probably not a huge deal, but it would have been nice. At least we do get Primaris marine units!

FOR THE LION!


My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot






Didn't notice the blade of caliban. Good catch it looks great.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

So I was tinkering around with a possible RavenDeath list (Ravenwing and Deathwing together) and it looks like that may work okay. You would need a Vanguard detachment for your Deathwing and an Outrider detachment for the Ravenwing. To me, the main concern would be how to deal with big things like Knights, although if a unit of Deathwing Termies gets the charge with their power fists that would be super brutal! Another problem might be the low number of command points, but honestly I don't see a lot of armies in the 2000 point range being able to take a Brigade so it's probably not a huge deal. In a 2000 point list it would be tough to include a Land Raider for the Deathwing but it might be doable if you take cheap stuff for the Ravenwing. Not sure it's worth it. As for the Ravenwing's loadouts, I'm thinking all of them will have their place. Plasma is decent on regular bikers now as it is cheaper to take plasmas on regular bikers than it is to take Black Knights. As I said in my takeaways above, Black Knights are more expensive but still quite good. I think they are better as a melee unit that can soften up a charge target with their guns first, whereas regular bikers are a shooty unit that does close combat as a last resort (in other words, these two units are very much like they have been in 7th). At least you don't have to worry about a unit that Black Knights shoot at running out of charge range upon failing a morale check. I'm very much on the fence as far as the grenade launcher goes. We lost rad and stasis shells, but I really never used them much anyway. I still don't think it is worth it to pay points to replace the Huntmaster's Corvus Hammer. Corvus Hammers are still good, and they are free.

One thing I will want to try is an Air Wing Detachment with 2 Nephilim Jetfighters and a Dark Talon, kind of like our 7th edition Ravenwing Silence Squadron. Heck, you get +1 Command Point for it, so why not? Only downside is that it'd probably cost around 600-700 points at a guesstimate.

One thing I am definitely looking forward to is seeing how the new Primaris Marines will fit into our lists. I might try running some Inceptors with my Ravenwing, and in a more conventional list I'd definitely give the other guys a try. Whenever we get that new hovering tank, I'll probably get one or two and then really start integrating Primaris marines into my lists. Otherwise they are all footslogging and that may be a problem against certain opponents (Tau spring to mind). Then again, with their long range guns they could perhaps be used as a decent gunline, especially if they can grab some cover.

Sorry if I seem long winded or wear you guys out with random musings, but I am really excited for 8th edition. It's gonna be a long 2 weeks...

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in gb
Pauper with Promise




Notts, UK

DeathWing player here.

Terminators - worse than before as 2+ save isn't 2+ anymore & 2 wounds won't make up for that.

Land raiders - they cost HOW MUCH!?!?!?!?!?

Dreadnaughts - a solid "meh"

Belial - a bit better, works well with terminators, but they're junk

Chaplains - junk

All those Ancient dudes - what's the actual point of these guys?

You may have guessed, but I doubt I'll be taking DeathWing with any expectations of winning anything (other than being able to go first).

I hope I'm wrong, and I don't understand this whole new world.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Russell's teapot wrote:
DeathWing player here.

Terminators - worse than before as 2+ save isn't 2+ anymore & 2 wounds won't make up for that.

Land raiders - they cost HOW MUCH!?!?!?!?!?

Dreadnaughts - a solid "meh"

Belial - a bit better, works well with terminators, but they're junk

Chaplains - junk

All those Ancient dudes - what's the actual point of these guys?

You may have guessed, but I doubt I'll be taking DeathWing with any expectations of winning anything (other than being able to go first).

I hope I'm wrong, and I don't understand this whole new world.


This must be the Russel's Teapot from warseer that I used to discuss Deathwing with all the time.

So yeah, Deathwing are still dead. I actually haven't played since 6th, and only played maybe 2 games in that edition because the rules have been so bad in 40k it wasn't worth playing. So then I start hearing about a new edition thats going to "fix and balance" the whole game and that fluffy armies would be playable and even competitive, so I started getting ever so slightly excited that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I might be able to play my Deathwing army and be able to win..... Then I read the new rules and the DA codex. Yeah, no way. GW clearly doesn't understand why terminators aren't competitive still after all these years. They give them an extra wound at the same time they make most weapons in the game have weapon modifiers that make terms 2+ save worse. Apparently they don't remember that the last time they had weapon modifiers, terminators armor save was 3+ on 2D6.....sigh.

A couple funny things.

1. My other armies actually went down in points, yet my ENTIRE deathwing army actually went WAY up in points and I can't even field it anymore.

2. Unforgiven rule is almost completely worthless for the deathwing. If you have a 5 man squad, which is how I've always ran my DW, the only way you could lose guys to morale is to have 4 out of 5 dead terminators, then roll a 6 for morale, re-roll another 6 for ATSKNF. Thank you for the fearless rule....sigh

3. DW actually get punished when building their army using the detachments in the book, so 4 command points is all we're going to get.


Obviously all this could change with the release of their actual codex but at this point, I have zero, and I literally mean zero confidence in GW to be able to fix terminators so DW can actually be fun and dare I say, even semi-competitive.....
   
Made in is
Guardsman with Flashlight



Iceland

Think we need a few games before we call Deathwing and Ravenwing dead.


This is a good watch

https://www.miniwargaming.com/content/Dark-Angels-vs-Tau-Warhammer-40k-8th-Battle-Report-Ep-3

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Al Haquis wrote:
Think we need a few games before we call Deathwing and Ravenwing dead.


This is a good watch

https://www.miniwargaming.com/content/Dark-Angels-vs-Tau-Warhammer-40k-8th-Battle-Report-Ep-3


Already watched it. That wasn't a Deathwing or Ravenwing game. That was a dark Angels game.

I'm in no way stating Deathwing or Ravenwing aren't good within a dark Angels army list. I'm stating Pure Deathwing, that's been around since at least 2nd edition when I started is currently, and still going to be dead.

It doesn't take a mathematician to see that they are going to end up with less survivability than before with armor modifiers, mortal wounds and multi damage weapons galore out there.

For me, terminators, in general, have had 3 issues that have led them not being very viable for a long time now. Survivability, cost, and in the case of the shooty variety, weaponry/firepower.

So where do Deathwing players find themselves in 8th ed. with regards to these issues. Survivability, they gained a wound, that's awesome and been needed for 10 years now. The wound table changed and now str 5-7 only wound on 3+ instead of a 2+. So what's the flip side? Armor modifiers, multi damage weapons, and mortal wounds just completely negate these buffs and go even further in killing their survivability. Further, Knights lost their T5 shield wall ability so there's that too.

Cost, they actually not only went up in cost but lost many of their special rules, like re-rolls when DSing, and gained a special rule that is, while, very fluffy, totally useless. To add to this, The other 2 units pure Deathwing armies run, Land raiders and dreadnaughts, went WAY up in points.

Firepower for shooty terms, so this is one area that at least we got some gains. Storm bolters are now rapid 2, so they have 4 shots at half range which works well with the new DS rules. That's very good. The assault cannon went to 6 shots with -1 AP instead of 4 shots with rending, unfortunately, its alos heavy 6 and terminators no longer have relentless so if they move, its a -1 to hit. I'm not %100 sure if this will end up as a nerf or buff, I've seen arguments both ways. I'm pretty sure it ends up as a nerf because of the -1 to hit, besides, losing the rend is pretty big too. I think everything else is largely the same. Having said that, I think storm bolters needed a -1 modifier, and ACs needed -2. Thing is, str 6, and 7 weapons aren't in nearly as strong a position with the new wound table.

Obviously, this is just my opinion based on everything we know and as I said, could change with their codex, but I just don't see GW giving them enough help to stand on their own. I hope I'm wrong, I doubt it though...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 21:09:50


 
   
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Dammit baba, I thought you'd have good news!
   
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 Russell's teapot wrote:
Dammit boba, I thought you'd have good news!


I wish, the good news is, it looks like my Blood Angels Assault marine force will be pretty strong lol!!

Also, wth happened to warseer? its a deadzone now??!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 21:31:14


 
   
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A Protoss colony world

bobafett012 wrote:
It doesn't take a mathematician to see that they are going to end up with less survivability than before with armor modifiers, mortal wounds and multi damage weapons galore out there.

I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, those weapons that drop their armor save cost a lot of points and are now harder to spam as effectively. Sure, they'll still be there, but at the cost of model count in your opponent's army. Some of those weapons should be a good answer to termies, and their cost reflects that.

So where do Deathwing players find themselves in 8th ed. with regards to these issues. Survivability, they gained a wound, that's awesome and been needed for 10 years now. The wound table changed and now str 5-7 only wound on 3+ instead of a 2+. So what's the flip side? Armor modifiers, multi damage weapons, and mortal wounds just completely negate these buffs and go even further in killing their survivability. Further, Knights lost their T5 shield wall ability so there's that too.

A lot of the weapons that modify their armor would go right through their armor before (like plasma). Even a Terminator's old nemesis, Grav weapons, are actually marginally less effective against Termies than before, wounding them on 3's instead of 2's, and having a chance to only do 1 wound, resulting in a termie soaking 2 shots before dying. Arguably things like Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons got marginally more effective against Termies with their -1 AP, but this is where having 2 wounds comes in handy as both of those weapons only deal 1 wound per shot. Plasma now wounds on 3's instead of 2's and still only does 1 wound (unless it is overcharged, which carries risks), so terminators are slightly better against that too.

Cost, they actually not only went up in cost but lost many of their special rules, like re-rolls when DSing, and gained a special rule that is, while, very fluffy, totally useless. To add to this, The other 2 units pure Deathwing armies run, Land raiders and dreadnaughts, went WAY up in points.

A unit of standard Deathwing termies actually did not go up too much in cost. The squad you get from Dark Vengeance (with 4 storm bolters, 1 assault cannon, 1 power sword, 3 power fists, and a chainfist) costs 225 points in 7th. That same unit costs 245 in 8th with the same loadout. That's actually not too shabby with the improvements to the storm bolter, the now nonexistent risk from teleporting in, the changes to the wound table, and the extra wounds that each model gets. As for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, they did go way up in points (LR Crusader used to be 260 with multimelta, now it's 314), but they now have vastly increased durability since grav can't immobilize them with a single hit and they can't be one-shotted by, well anything really. Giving them wounds, toughness, and an armor save made all vehicles better, hence the point increases across the board.

Firepower for shooty terms, so this is one area that at least we got some gains. Storm bolters are now rapid 2, so they have 4 shots at half range which works well with the new DS rules. That's very good. The assault cannon went to 6 shots with -1 AP instead of 4 shots with rending, unfortunately, its alos heavy 6 and terminators no longer have relentless so if they move, its a -1 to hit. I'm not %100 sure if this will end up as a nerf or buff, I've seen arguments both ways. I'm pretty sure it ends up as a nerf because of the -1 to hit, besides, losing the rend is pretty big too. I think everything else is largely the same. Having said that, I think storm bolters needed a -1 modifier, and ACs needed -2. Thing is, str 6, and 7 weapons aren't in nearly as strong a position with the new wound table.

Yes, losing rending on assault cannons was painful, as is the -1 to hit modifier when moving, but 6 shots kind of makes up for it. That -1 AP makes a difference, as you yourself pointed out when talking about how termies' saves get worse vs. most weapons. Plus, the rending only came up if you rolled a 6 to wound, so it didn't always happen anyway. One way strength 6 weapons got better was against some of the stupidly tough monsters (looking at you Wraithknight), as now they only need 5's to wound instead of 6's. Since some of the big vehicles are now T8 also (such as Imperial Knights) this will make a difference. Of course, you really shouldn't be shooting a 1-damage-per-shot assault cannon at something like a Knight with 20+ wounds and a decent save. Of course against something like that, well, those powerfists aren't just for looks are they?

Overall I think Deathwing will perhaps not be the best on their own as they do have some weaknesses, and maybe that's as it should be. As part of a combined arms-type force, they should do okay. I for one am looking forward to playing terminators and land raiders with a straight face now, and that gives me an incentive to get them painted.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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I'll likely play some mostly Deathwing based DA lists although I do agree they are still underpowered (or more accurately, over-costed). They're certainly better than when I began playing with them in 3rd edition, 52 points each and no invulnerable save.

Standard DA are more powerful. Its all about stacking buffs. I'd go with something like Azrael, a librarian, Primaris Lieutenant, and a Darkshroud as a core for a castle; -1 to hit (-2 for one unit from Aversion), 4+ inv, rerolls to hit, rerolls 1 to wound all together is a tough nut to crack. Add in a standard landraider, some tac marines and razorbacks, and a few double flamer speeders to round it out.
   
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 ZergSmasher wrote:

I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, those weapons that drop their armor save cost a lot of points and are now harder to spam as effectively. Sure, they'll still be there, but at the cost of model count in your opponent's army. Some of those weapons should be a good answer to termies, and their cost reflects that.


Sternguards basic bolter is -2, Shuriken weaponry -3 on a 6+ to wound, All crons basic guns are -1 AP or better. There's quite a bit of cheap units, and correct me if i am wrong but did the wargear costs not drop too? Seems things like plasma pistols and such are much cheaper now.


 ZergSmasher wrote:
A lot of the weapons that modify their armor would go right through their armor before (like plasma). Even a Terminator's old nemesis, Grav weapons, are actually marginally less effective against Termies than before, wounding them on 3's instead of 2's, and having a chance to only do 1 wound, resulting in a termie soaking 2 shots before dying. Arguably things like Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons got marginally more effective against Termies with their -1 AP, but this is where having 2 wounds comes in handy as both of those weapons only deal 1 wound per shot. Plasma now wounds on 3's instead of 2's and still only does 1 wound (unless it is overcharged, which carries risks), so terminators are slightly better against that too.


I never played 7th. I knew the rules were going to be bad, they had gotten worse every edition from 4th on imo, so I never had to contend with Grav, which considering terminators already died in droves in 5th and 6th, i'm sure they were probably even worse in 7th, but they weren't viable in the 2 editions before that so thats not a good thing really, and as we've determined, things like HB and such are actually good against them where they got a full save before.


 ZergSmasher wrote:
A unit of standard Deathwing termies actually did not go up too much in cost. The squad you get from Dark Vengeance (with 4 storm bolters, 1 assault cannon, 1 power sword, 3 power fists, and a chainfist) costs 225 points in 7th. That same unit costs 245 in 8th with the same loadout. That's actually not too shabby with the improvements to the storm bolter, the now nonexistent risk from teleporting in, the changes to the wound table, and the extra wounds that each model gets. As for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, they did go way up in points (LR Crusader used to be 260 with multimelta, now it's 314), but they now have vastly increased durability since grav can't immobilize them with a single hit and they can't be one-shotted by, well anything really. Giving them wounds, toughness, and an armor save made all vehicles better, hence the point increases across the board.


Correct, I didn't say they went up dramatically, but when most infantry are going down in price and vehicles going up to counter act that a bit, it really hurts when your model count is already so low, and that coupled with very high points increases on their vehicles makes for even less models. The Godhammer LR is like 383 with MM, thats crazy tbh.



 ZergSmasher wrote:
Yes, losing rending on assault cannons was painful, as is the -1 to hit modifier when moving, but 6 shots kind of makes up for it. That -1 AP makes a difference, as you yourself pointed out when talking about how termies' saves get worse vs. most weapons. Plus, the rending only came up if you rolled a 6 to wound, so it didn't always happen anyway. One way strength 6 weapons got better was against some of the stupidly tough monsters (looking at you Wraithknight), as now they only need 5's to wound instead of 6's. Since some of the big vehicles are now T8 also (such as Imperial Knights) this will make a difference. Of course, you really shouldn't be shooting a 1-damage-per-shot assault cannon at something like a Knight with 20+ wounds and a decent save. Of course against something like that, well, those powerfists aren't just for looks are they?
Maybe, I don't mind the change in assault cannon really, more so the hit to to hit roll when moving as terms always used to be relentless. We'll see about whats better at killing these high wound monsters. I think your probably right, and las cannons, missiles etc etc will be the way to go, but I just watched a video the other day that speculated spammed assault cannons and heavy bolters etc would be the way to go in this edition so we'll see, the meta is non existent at the moment.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Overall I think Deathwing will perhaps not be the best on their own as they do have some weaknesses, and maybe that's as it should be. As part of a combined arms-type force, they should do okay. I for one am looking forward to playing terminators and land raiders with a straight face now, and that gives me an incentive to get them painted.


But is that not what GW was touting when they did all their interviews and QnAs on this edition?? Fluffy armies could be and would be competitive and the game as a whole would be balanced? It gripes me because i've been playing DW since 2nd edition and really, other than 2nd and 4th, they haven't been very good at all, yet, GW continues to make it posssible to play a pure deathwing army. I am hoping they use the new dex for DA when it comes out to come up with some good detatchments that grant lots of command and/or special rules for DW terms so they can shine on their own, yet not break the game when utilizing them in either Ravenwing, Greenwing armies.
   
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To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.

Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.
   
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Two dark talons, escorted by a darkshroud are looking at -2 to hit on the flyers.
   
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A Protoss colony world

Spoletta wrote:
To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.

Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.

Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.

I've been thinking about some other units lately, including some that I built for a 7th edition battle company that I never even got to try out. Here are yet more thoughts:
- Assault Squads without jump packs are not looking great right now, especially with flamers since even with a drop pod they will be out of range. Jump Pack Assault Squads are looking a bit better, as they don't need a pod to drop in and they are faster. Plasma Pistols are now a good buy, so I can finally feel good about using my only JP Assault squad WYSIWYG now (they have 2 plasma pistols and a power axe). I think Eviscerators are not a very good choice on these guys since you don't get +1 attack on the charge, meaning you only get one swing with it at -1 to hit. At least Chainswords get extra attacks nowadays.
- If we really want good assault-type jump troops, I think Inceptors are solid. They are expensive, but they put out a lot of firepower and are durable. They hit pretty hard if they charge as well, potentially doing a mortal wound or 2. The high cost seems to be their only real weakness.
-Hellblasters look amazing! Plus, since they are equipped with plasma, they seem like a fluffy choice for Dark Angels. Again, the cost may be a bit of an issue, but their firepower seems solid.
-I think the real winners among the Primaris units in the new starter are probably the Primaris Lieutenants. That rerolling of 1's to wound will come in handy a lot, and they aren't too expensive.
-I can't really see taking Rhinos much, as Razorbacks are better unless one needs to move a large squad around. Maybe a 10-man Assault Squad on foot could benefit well from a Rhino, though.
-Devastators with Multimeltas or Gravcannons seem to be the best candidates for a Drop Pod, as the 9-inch range won't hurt them as much. The only problem is the -1 to hit for their Heavy weapons. Maybe a Captain nearby to give them rerolls of 1's could help, but that's even more points for models that are just going to be bullseyes with legs on your opponent's next turn. Hopefully the guys can at least drop into cover or something.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
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 ZergSmasher wrote:

Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.


Unfortunately, that's not quite right. When DSing, you have to be MORE than 9" away. which means, at minimum, you'd need a 9+ to make the charge. not a huge difference, but still, that 41% chance dropped to a 33% chance to make your charge. On average, 1 out of 3 DSing units will hit their charge without utilizing a command point re-roll.
   
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ZergSmasher wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.

Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.

Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.
.


Indeed you can't, but it still means that you fell no difference between being hit by a pulse carbine or by an assault cannon.

bobafett012 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.


Unfortunately, that's not quite right. When DSing, you have to be MORE than 9" away. which means, at minimum, you'd need a 9+ to make the charge. not a huge difference, but still, that 41% chance dropped to a 33% chance to make your charge. On average, 1 out of 3 DSing units will hit their charge without utilizing a command point re-roll.


Unfortunately true.
   
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Played two games against chaos marines yesterday. First with dark angels and then with AdMech with a bit of Inquisition and Sisters of Silence.

Land Raider Crusader is not much of a threat once it's empty, but the original Lascannon Raider remains fearsome; better than Predators for sure.

Unfortunately I don't see much of a niche for Sisters of Silence. And Coteaz may be the bright spot in Inquisition; i'll find out in my next game. One cheap 55 point Inquisitor to fill an HQ slot and Smite / Deny the Witch may still have value tho.

Captain's aura to re-roll 1's is very powerful for both shooting and melee. I think it's often more valuable than a Librarian or any other aura buff.

Deathwing have some advantages over other chapters' terminators like the Deathwing Knight unit and the psychic protection upgrade Watcher in the Dark. I'm building Belial now because I think he's under-costed and he can easily make nearby Deathwing 50% more powerful. I think a Deathwing Apothecary is also worth its points, tho I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!

We know Kastellan robbits are good but wow they carried almost the entire game they were in. Cawl greatly improves them, but protecting them from charges is critical. you'll find screening units in general are pivitol in 8th edition. Bubble wrap is back! Two Scout units earned their points slowing down a Renegade Knight and a Hellbrute for two turns. Vanguard screen while also shooting decently, but I'm not sure they're better than Scouts.

Speaking of, the 8-Wound CSM demon Prince is a big Character but small enough to hide from shooting, and its Warptime power by itself makes Hellbrutes viable without transport.

Finally, the new pre-game rules are so, so different. They'll take some getting used to, and some event organizers may consider modifying them. One insight: the player who places the second objective already knows he'll pick both the deployment map and his zone, so he has incentive to stack all his objectives on one side.

I'm working now on a combined DAngles/AdMech/Coteaz force for Thursday. I don't think Ravenwing will make the cut.

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 axisofentropy wrote:
Played two games against chaos marines yesterday. First with dark angels and then with AdMech with a bit of Inquisition and Sisters of Silence.

Land Raider Crusader is not much of a threat once it's empty, but the original Lascannon Raider remains fearsome; better than Predators for sure.

Unfortunately I don't see much of a niche for Sisters of Silence. And Coteaz may be the bright spot in Inquisition; i'll find out in my next game. One cheap 55 point Inquisitor to fill an HQ slot and Smite / Deny the Witch may still have value tho.

Captain's aura to re-roll 1's is very powerful for both shooting and melee. I think it's often more valuable than a Librarian or any other aura buff.

Deathwing have some advantages over other chapters' terminators like the Deathwing Knight unit and the psychic protection upgrade Watcher in the Dark. I'm building Belial now because I think he's under-costed and he can easily make nearby Deathwing 50% more powerful. I think a Deathwing Apothecary is also worth its points, tho I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!

We know Kastellan robbits are good but wow they carried almost the entire game they were in. Cawl greatly improves them, but protecting them from charges is critical. you'll find screening units in general are pivitol in 8th edition. Bubble wrap is back! Two Scout units earned their points slowing down a Renegade Knight and a Hellbrute for two turns. Vanguard screen while also shooting decently, but I'm not sure they're better than Scouts.

Speaking of, the 8-Wound CSM demon Prince is a big Character but small enough to hide from shooting, and its Warptime power by itself makes Hellbrutes viable without transport.

Finally, the new pre-game rules are so, so different. They'll take some getting used to, and some event organizers may consider modifying them. One insight: the player who places the second objective already knows he'll pick both the deployment map and his zone, so he has incentive to stack all his objectives on one side.

I'm working now on a combined DAngles/AdMech/Coteaz force for Thursday. I don't think Ravenwing will make the cut.


Thanks for the report. I am really thinking about running a regular land raider this edition and deepstriking all my termies with dreds, ravenwing or scouts on the table to satisfy the 50% rule. It just seems like with all the wounds now you are going to need some lascannons on the table not to mention it will attract all the shooting making it easier for you DW to survive. Belial seems like an auto include if you have any shooting terminators.
   
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Throc wrote:
Belial seems like an auto include if you have any shooting terminators.
His ability affects Deathwing during the Fight phase too. For power fists hitting on 4+, a re-roll gets them 50% more. Huge value.

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 axisofentropy wrote:
Throc wrote:
Belial seems like an auto include if you have any shooting terminators.
His ability affects Deathwing during the Fight phase too. For power fists hitting on 4+, a re-roll gets them 50% more. Huge value.


Yeah you are right. Some reason I was reading it as a shooting phase ability.
   
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Belial himself can do well in a fight since his sword always wounds on a 2+ (and does D3 damage if I'm not mistaken). Although honestly I'm not sure if I want characters in melee at all except in certain situations. I don't think the restriction against hitting characters applies in the fight phase.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
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Looks like I missed this bit sorry!
[Thumb - Screenshot_20170607-180622.png]


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I'm sitting here trying to put together some Deathwing lists for some games i'm playing this weekend. They are 2k points.

A couple things i'm considering, and wanting to get some other peoples thoughts on. First off, to clarify, when I say Deathwing, I actually mean Deathwing. Terms, land raiders, and venerable dreads, and HQs that are inducted into the DW. I have my own thoughts on this stuff, but i've been out of 40k since basically 5th because i only played a handful of 6th edition games and quit, so i want to see what everyone else is thinking after seeing the rules and the codex.



First thing, the age old debate between shooty or CC Deathwing. Whats going to be better this edition? I personally love shooty terms, but I was thinking maybe a mixture of shooty terms and knights. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of reasons to bring TH and SS terms over the Knights. The Mace of Absolution is a Thunder Hammer without the penalty. I'm thinking, drop a couple 5 man squads of Knights in and aim at their super heavy or large units and use CP re-rolls to get the charge off. Then use shooty terms to march up the field, take objectives and lay down their improved fire power from Storm bolters, Cyclones and assault cannons.


Second, I definitely want to run a Libby in term armor, but after reading the entry in the SM codex, other than losing the ability to DS him, and a couple weapon options, why would you ever take the Libby in Terminator armor over Ezekiel? He's got a 2+/4++, better stats, gets all 3 psychic powers, and some cool wargear that you essentially get for free, all for nearly 20 points less.

Thirdly, what are peoples thoughts on the best command squad units. Apothecary, champion and ancient all seem pretty good to be honest.

Lastly, with land raiders and dreads being much tougher than before, are DW lists going to be better with less terms and loaded up on 2 or 3 LRs and Dreads, or lots of terms and maybe only 1 land raider and a dread? This one i'm not as sure on. The real question is, just how tough are the LD and dreads going to be. basically you can get a 5 man squad of terms instead of a LR, or 2 dreads with some left over.
   
 
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