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2017/06/07 07:54:25
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I, as someone who recently started playing 30k, but also plan on maintaining a 40k force. It seems to me that while the new 40k will be a quick and fun game, If i want actual tactical and strategic challenges, then 30k looks like its going to provide those more effectively. After reading the new 40k rules and army construction stuff. I think that 'competitive' 40k will be just as much a spamming cluster F as it was in previous additions, but without many of the nuances of play that set apart adept tactical players from those who thought less deeply about their positioning etc. I for one can see myself enjoying 30k competition far more than 40k, and I'm wondering if people think that a similar group of people will start to make a transition over from 40k due to its simplification?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 08:47:46
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2017/06/07 08:36:58
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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All of my friends already play both, but I could see some of them only playing 30k if they do not get on with 40k & 8th as a few moved away from Fantasy when AoS first came out as they didn't like the rule changes.
While we play 40k against each other we rarely play it against people outside of our group, 30k on the other hand we play regularly against other people. If 40k ends up having a better balance with the new edition then I can see myself playing it at tournaments.
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2017/06/07 08:47:03
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Regular Dakkanaut
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With 40k having unbound built into its army construction paradigm now, and with the removal of objective secured (the only thing Incentivising not taking whatever you want in whatever quantity you want is essentially a few rerolls.
I'm struggling to see this as a framework for a balanced competitive game.
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2017/06/07 09:32:35
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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I thought for narrative and matched play, armies must be battle-forged under 8th? If that is the case then as long as the tournament sticks to either of those, the GW events guys said they would be using matched play, I will be happy as I can avoid unbound easier than I can now.
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2017/06/07 09:44:31
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Looky Likey wrote:I thought for narrative and matched play, armies must be battle-forged under 8th? If that is the case then as long as the tournament sticks to either of those, the GW events guys said they would be using matched play, I will be happy as I can avoid unbound easier than I can now.
Except that tax is pretty minimal unless all your HQ's are overpriced junk. Basically at the cost of few HQ's you can spam any slot pretty much at will.
Spamming didn't go anywhere so only balancing factor left for example to avoid n riptide army is basically that riptide isn't worth spamming. Or that even if it's spammed it's not broken.
Generally you run out of points before slots. And of course if the (optional) detachment max limit is not used at the cost of not having command points you can make 100% battle forge army of 1 unit spammed as much as you can fit into points.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2017/06/07 13:01:09
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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It'll depend on how useful the command points are to your list? I know I am looking at it the other way and trying to get as many command points as possible, tactical rerolls is far too useful to me.
I have a nasty feeling that we will see broken formations or detachments in the 8th edition codexes, which will remove any interest I have in tournament style 40k games.
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2017/06/07 14:07:36
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Really.....
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Feed the poor war gamer with money. |
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2017/06/07 14:23:44
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Abel
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It's a moot point. Eventually, 30K will convert over to 8th edition. It might be a little while, but it's gonna happen.
Guess I'll have to brace for more Xeno's and 40K Chapters trying to play 30K. And yeah, I'm gonna be that guy.
"No, this is 30K. I'm not going to play against your Eldar, Necrons, Orks, T'Au, or Tryanids"
"No, you can't use your Gladius Formation in 30K"
"No, it's not 40K but with Space Marines"
Sigh. Is there anything to say yes to?
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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2017/06/07 15:04:39
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Mysterious Techpriest
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I think people will play 8th and get on with trying to have fun - then one day they'll go over to the table with the small space marines in old armour types and while looking longingly at the flamer template for a moment they'll realize that overwhelming sense of nostalgia as someone moves their spartan 6", disembarks 6", lays down some flamer templates and then rolls their charge range.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle.. |
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2017/06/07 15:15:42
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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I'm hoping 7.5 from FW will remove random charge distances...
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2017/06/07 15:29:36
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2017/06/07 15:37:53
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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tneva82 wrote:
What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
Simple swap to fixed charge distances and keep pre measuring. Pre measuring makes no difference to if I decide to charge or not, I know everbody will have a different dependence level of pre measuring but for me I know when I am about 7" away and when I am not, so I know the approx. odds of making that charge and with random the only way to be 100% certain is to be ~2" away, I've failed 3" charges before now. If I have to make the charge, in other words the game hangs off it, I will get as close as possible before committing to remove happenstance from why I failed the charge.
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2017/06/07 16:00:03
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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I don't know why they haven't a Ork army list for 30k. They fight agains't ork in 30k. Horus was appointed warmaster after winning against the Orks.
But well... orks don't seel as well as the 18 flavours of space marines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 16:03:46
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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2017/06/07 16:54:35
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
Freezing to death outside the Fang
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I must admit that FW confirming that they are staying in 7th definitely swayed my purchasing decisions at warhammer fest, I am now the proud owner of 10 new legion destroyers, 5 new dark furies and two packs of raven guard upgrade heads. admittedly I was already heavily invested in 30k and I was pleased to hear in the seminar that there would be no changes to 30k otherwise I might well have given up. while some of 8th is good other bits are plain awful, removing initiative steps was a huge mistake as it shifts the meta towards tanky, multi wound combat units that hit like a ton of bricks ( THSS termies and monsterous creatures) that kill whatever they charge before it has a chance to defend itself, like what happened with ogres in AoS when the game dropped. effectively rendering many single wound units useless.
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host of the eternity king 3500pts+ lizardmen 1000pts
and 2000pts+ 8000+ pts 1400+ pts
HH 7700+ pts 1350 pts HH raven guard 2500+ pts 50 pp Idoneth Deepkin 2000 pts |
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2017/06/07 17:20:34
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Flashy Flashgitz
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I think 30k will have a seperate audience. At least inmy country 40k is about power gaming, you allmost never see fluff based lists, only decurions, detstars and that kind of stuff. 30k on the other hand has been about somewhat fluffy army composition, carefully painted models and using strategy over raw power. I like the changes to 40k, as it means my orks are palyable again, but if anybody getas into 30k with a 40k army I'll be happy to play against him or her, as long as there are no decurions, just standart army composition.
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2017/06/07 22:59:48
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Can I play Word Bearers like Word Bearers? Yup, I'm in.
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2017/06/08 03:56:03
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Terrifying Wraith
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No, simplified 40k bring me back to 40k. 7ed work well with 30k but a lot of how to play the rules make 30k less fun.
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2017/06/08 05:35:44
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Maybe, maybe not. 8th seems more intelligently simplified; plenty of diehard AoS-haters (myself included) at my FLGS seem to be taking to it.
(I was driven to 30k all the way back in 6th by the awesome motor pool and Terminators that were actually cool, so it's done its job on that front.)
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2017/06/08 06:57:19
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Looky Likey wrote:tneva82 wrote:
What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
Simple swap to fixed charge distances and keep pre measuring. Pre measuring makes no difference to if I decide to charge or not, I know everbody will have a different dependence level of pre measuring but for me I know when I am about 7" away and when I am not, so I know the approx. odds of making that charge and with random the only way to be 100% certain is to be ~2" away, I've failed 3" charges before now. If I have to make the charge, in other words the game hangs off it, I will get as close as possible before committing to remove happenstance from why I failed the charge.
That's the worst you can do for the game. That just leads to unrealistically micromanaging within 0.1" without any impunity.
Game needs something to simulate fog of war. Commanders don't have accurate info. Having pre-measurement AND fixed charge ranges suck. Big time.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2017/06/08 08:20:09
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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You won't please everybody regardless of what they choose, obviously I want what I prefer and I do not believe there is a right answer that applies equally well for all armies/players.
Not allowing pre measuring just benefits those who are good at judging distance, I'm rarely out more than 1/2" with my visual estimates so removing pre measuring doesn't hurt me, but it will mean I'd have an advantage over others who are not good at judging distances.
Fog of war is really hard to simulate on a tabletop game, I can't see how it can be done. Random dice rolls for movement/charge/etc. do not cut it for me as you simply adapt and play the odds to your favour and it slows down the game as it reduces the distances before you try something. Occasionally I'll try a hail mary assault at a big distance but only if I know the target can't hurt me with overwatch or I have nothing to lose.
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2017/06/08 08:54:59
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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If anything was driving people to 30k it was formations and bloated 7th - 8th will likely have the opposite effect for the majority.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 08:55:37
3500pts1500pts2500pts4500pts3500pts2000pts 2000pts plus several small AOS armies |
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2017/06/08 13:25:20
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Zognob Gorgoff wrote:If anything was driving people to 30k it was formations and bloated 7th - 8th will likely have the opposite effect for the majority.
Agreed on both points.
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2017/06/08 14:26:52
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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tneva82 wrote:
What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
(For the record: Warmachine Mk.3 has allowed premeasuring to coexist with non-random charge distances, and the sky has yet to fall there.)
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2017/06/08 14:41:11
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Anyone expecting the HH rulebook to be anything more than the current 7th edition rulebook with unnecessary stuff stripped out and a minor change or two is going to be very, very disappointed IMO.
If FW doesn't have time to update the Legion rules and other armies for 8th and playtest them, when are they going to have the time to make substantive changes to 7th and playtest those?
This isn't about FW 'fixing' 7th. It's about FW kicking the can down the road and getting a rulebook out to sell, since the GW rulebook won't be available anymore. So it's necessary, but it's also a behavior that can have repercussions depending on how much kicking you do. Hopefully it all works out for them, but I don't feel anywhere near as good about the future of 30K after the recent events.
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2017/06/08 15:05:14
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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The FW rulebook will incorporate all of the new FAQs. It'll get rid of any special rules that aren't used in 30K. It'll probably tweak a few things here or there. The biggest tweaks I'd be expecting is changing some psychic powers around.
It's still going to be 7th edition. It's just going to get cleaned up a bit is all. I don't see it "driving" people to play. 8th edition is making 40K better.
This is what I wish they had done with Fantasy, to be honest.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2017/06/08 15:29:58
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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AnomanderRake wrote:tneva82 wrote:
What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
(For the record: Warmachine Mk.3 has allowed premeasuring to coexist with non-random charge distances, and the sky has yet to fall there.)
And is a game for Architects, so abstract and gamey that is one of the most umpleasant games to see being played. I can understand why people like to play that game, but is like the opposite of Warhammer 40k and specially 30k, that is a pseudo-historical version of 40k.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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2017/06/08 16:22:01
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
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secretForge wrote:I, as someone who recently started playing 30k, but also plan on maintaining a 40k force.
It seems to me that while the new 40k will be a quick and fun game, If i want actual tactical and strategic challenges, then 30k looks like its going to provide those more effectively.
After reading the new 40k rules and army construction stuff. I think that 'competitive' 40k will be just as much a spamming cluster F as it was in previous additions, but without many of the nuances of play that set apart adept tactical players from those who thought less deeply about their positioning etc.
I for one can see myself enjoying 30k competition far more than 40k, and I'm wondering if people think that a similar group of people will start to make a transition over from 40k due to its simplification?
Right... Except that the majority of 30k competitive tournament lists are totally spammy in their own right. Phosphex Quad mortars, leviathans in drop pods, and Primarch Stars aren't exactly subtle nuances of generalship. I think you'll find that 30k has a niche to fill and that 40k has a niche to fill. If someone wants to play a game that is predictable, 30k is it. You know you're going to be fighting a lot of 3+ armor, you know you're going to be fighting dreads/ tanks, and you know you need a way to kill a Spartan. An all-comer's list is absolutely possible and in a lot of ways encouraged. 40k does not have that leisure: you can be fighting anything from hordes of infantry, to a tank list, to a monstrous horde, to a character disco. And all your weapons will be useful, but some obviously more than others. 40k has variety where 30k has nuance. 40k is blunt where 30k is subtle. In 30k, that 20-man tactical squad might be walking across the table, out-flanking, infiltrating, scouting, or simply staying in the deployment zone. It might get some bonuses to cover, resistance to certain weapons, or other such nuance. In 40k, if you see a 20-man blob of marines, you know you're fighting Chaos, and you know what to expect.
So no, I'm sure our elite club will remain relatively clean.
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2017/06/08 17:07:01
Subject: Re:Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Galas wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:tneva82 wrote:
What in return? As simply removing them would be disaster( as a minimum you need to remove premeasurement but that leads to even biggger problems(but smaller than now minus random charge range)
(For the record: Warmachine Mk.3 has allowed premeasuring to coexist with non-random charge distances, and the sky has yet to fall there.)
And is a game for Architects, so abstract and gamey that is one of the most umpleasant games to see being played. I can understand why people like to play that game, but is like the opposite of Warhammer 40k and specially 30k, that is a pseudo-historical version of 40k.
Just trying to point out that you don't absolutely have to have either random charges or no premeasuring in your game. It's not the end of the world if you're allowed to know if a charge will succeed/fail before you declare it. (I've also played Mordheim with pre-measuring and found that it doesn't really change much, if you wanted a non-Warmachine example.)
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2017/06/08 17:50:39
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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You can't use a lot of 40k armies in 30k, so... not likely. In fact, not a single one of the three armies I own can be used in 30k. So I literally cannot play it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 17:53:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2017/06/08 18:21:49
Subject: Will a more simplified 40k drive people towards 30k
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Furious Raptor
Finland
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I love how some posters here act like Horus Heresy is somehow perfect and without broken things. Of course it is not as broken as 7th Ed. 40k was, but it does have it's broken things, few of which were mentioned already but I shall mention again, in no particular order:
-Spartan with Armoured Ceramite
-Artificer Armour Champions tanking shots equipped with fist
-Primarch Stars and Stars in general
-Leviathan
-Phosphex launchers
And by broken I mean that some things have so few good counters that building a list becomes into this:
"Okey, there is only 2-3 units which can reliably well kill spartan fast enough, so I need to have X, Y or Z in every list". Honestly I do not understand who can consider this sort equilibrium balanced.
8th Edition brings so much more to the table, AP 3 melee weapons don't turn suddenly from godlike into butterknives when encountering 2+ Sv guy after fighting only 3+ Sv guys.
Meanwhile in the best game 7th Edition Horus Heresy:
S7 Predator Cannon is completely unuseable against Spartan, even Lascannon is nearly unuseable when shot at the Front, then midly ok when shot at the side.
Quad Launcher with Shatter Shells is actually far superior to even twin-linked lascannon when shot at anything else than Front side of Spartan. Combine this with the fact that ultimately Rapier batteries are ridiculously difficult to take out actually.
Spartan with AC is whole other case itself, basically it has 20 pts upgrade which guarantees it can't get hard countered by short range weaponry. This is very nice oversight from designers clearly. So you have a tank that can just roll straight at target and it is about 95% of time guaranteed to do it's job and do it well. I just cannot see how Spartan meta provides the owning player any "tactical or strategic challenges". Gameplay is more akin the player choosing not to bring his own Spartan has to do the tactical or strategic thinking.
Only ray of Hope I see for 7th Ed. Horus Heresy is that they bring back Multi-bombing with grenades, because that will ultimately allow more varied list building than the current ruleset in effect.
I have followed local and global big Horus Heresy tournaments and general thing I have noticed has been this:
Armoured Breakthrough Lists seem to dominate as they are very difficult nut to crack for lists that have atleast 300-400 points in normal troops which are completely unuseable against Predator Strike Squadrons. Lists with Shatter Shell and/or Phosphex round quads generally place high. Spartan lists generally place high.
All these lists work because they have units that are in general difficult to counter while remaining all around good or great units themselves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 18:26:54
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