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I'm waiting on 8th until it fleshes out, gets proper codexes, etc. so I felt like doing "yet another 7.5 thread." There are a lot of ideas floating around, but most of what I'm interested in relates to removing pre-game army random, and "all or nothing" effects, as well as adjusting certain things while keeping the stuff from 7th that was functional...plus I wanted to have some fun with "developer commentary" too

(Note: Not discussing Forgeworld as of yet).

==Big 3 Rules of 40k==

* (This is the big one): Invulnerable Saves that are not explicitly worded as 2+ Invulnerable may not be improved to better than 3+ Invulnerable by any means whatsoever, be it the Grimoire, Cursed Earth, Blessing of Tzeentch, Sanctuary, etc. Even 3++ Rerollable can be overcome; there's an order of magnitude difference between failing 1 in 9 saves versus failing 1 in 36!

* Modify Invisibility to use ITC rulings: Rather than "Snapshots when shooting, 6s to-hit in melee", make it "WS 1/BS 1 when making attacks against this target", so that blasts/templates still work against it.

* Remove Deathblow from the Destroyer Table; instead, all non-Dispersed Destroyer Weapons inflict a -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves.

Those are the "big tweaks" that I feel would remove a LOT of the actual hate for non-random powers. Other notable that would round things off, include:

* You may select your Warlord Trait and Psychic Powers. Enjoy.

* If your Primary Detachment gives you the option to roll for an additional Warlord Trait, you may select an additional Warlord Trait instead. If that option only lets you roll for an additional Warlord Trait for a specific table (or set of tables), that additional Warlord Trait must be selected from that table or set of tables.

* If you have the option to re-roll your Warlord Trait (due to a Detachment, or otherwise), you may select a second Warlord Trait. If that option only lets you re-roll for a specific table (or set of tables), that additional Warlord Trait must be selected from that table or set of tables.

* Multiple non-repeated options are cumulative. For example, Creed in a CAD could roll for 3 Warlord Traits due to generating 2 Warlord Traits normally, and the CAD granting a re-roll. However, a Demi-Company Warlord in an Angel's Blade Strike Force would only get 2 Warlord Traits (as the "reroll" bonus is the same for both the formation and the parent detachment).

* Optionally, Special Characters with fixed Warlord Traits (except Zahnrekh, see below) can get a point break of 25 points or so. Fateweaver isn't as special when any old Herald lets you re-roll Warp Storm results

* You may use Beams or Direct Witchfires from a transport; measure from an appropriate Fire Point (or the hull if the vehicle is open-topped)

* For Conjuration powers, you must declare what exactly you wish to summon before you roll, including any relevant upgrades and options. Furthermore, Conjurations cannot be cast while engaged in melee, and a model may not move for any reason during their player turn when it wants to use Conjuration. Gives your opponent more information as to whether they want to try to Deny or not, and eliminates flyby summoning.

* Sacrifice is Warp Charge 2. You can cast it as Warp Charge 3 or 4, each additional WC letting you spend an extra 15 points on upgrades for the Herald.

* Models that are summoned via Telepathic Summons roll a D3 instead of a D6 on the Cult Ambush table. You can summon stuff, but you need to think more about how to actually get them into the fight! No playing "Summon to fish for 6s on Cult Ambush" shenanigans.

* Shifting Worldscape is a WC 2 Malediction that moves an enemy unit 6" in a single direction. No DJ-roomba Ruins. This is a far weaker form of Lash.

* Electrodisplacement only lets units assault if both units being Electrodisplaced are allowed to assault at the start of the turn. No "Switching your Drop Pod Grey Hunters with a Wulfen" shenanigans.

* Models that gain Infiltrate as a result of Master of Deception may not use it to Outflank.

* Eldritch Storm is WC 2 for a small blast, WC 3 for a large blast, and WC 4 for a massive blast. Eldrad may cast it at WC 5 as an Apocalyptic Blast.

* Azrael costs the same as normal, but chooses a Warlord Trait from Codex: Dark Angels in addition to normal ones.

* Nemesor Zahndrekh's Adaptive Tactics are modified so that if he is your Warlord, he always has Eternal Madness, and a second Warlord Trait, no matter what you use for your primary detachment; that second Warlord Trait may be changed as per the normal rules for Adaptive Tactics. Zahndrekh is a tactical genius, but that doesn't mean he suddenly adapts to not be crazy.

* The Alpha Legion trait Many Heads of the Hydra stacks with "reroll warlord traits" effects. I'm sure you can have fun with this.

* Jokaero can stay random. That's literally written into their fluff!

* Dark Eldar Combat Drugs are chosen at the start of the turn. Grotesquerie alterations are chosen pre-game.

* Chaos Daemons can select their gifts. The first Exalted Reward is replaced altogether with a new Exalted Reward, Mythic Legacy: This Daemon has a Greater Reward. Once per game, the Chaos Daemon player may switch out this Greater Reward for another Greater Reward.

* Kill-Dakka lets you select one of the 6 weapon profiles each turn; each profile is once per game. Become an Orky Obliterator

Army Tweaks

* Chaos Plasma weapons have "Gets Really Hot". They fire an extra shot beyond what their profile allows but you must take two armor saves/potentially lose 2 HP for each 1 rolled.

* Warpsmiths, Apostles and Princes get access to Bikes and Steeds.

* Chosen can take 2 Heavies.

* Dark Angels are closet heretics, and Allies of Convenience with the rest of the Imperium. Nay to Barkbarkstars

* Magnus must Glide in order to use Gaze of Magnus. He has to stay in place to get a good look in after all.

* Tau have Rapidfire for Heavy Rail Rifles (Range 48 now) and Railcannons firing Solid Shot mode. Hi-Yield Missile Pods are Heavy 2/Blast.

* Smart Missile Systems are no longer Ignore Cover, but Heavy 3/Precision Shot/Rending.

* Riptides are cheaper but with less dakka. 150 pts but the Heavy Burst Cannon is Heavy 6, or 9 with Nova Charge. The Ion Accelerator is AP 3 like an Ion Cannon, unless it uses Nova Charge. Nova Reactor is "take an automatic wound, get a bonus".

* Windrider Jetbikes are Armor Save 4+, Windrider Scatter Lasers are Range 12.

* Foot Guardians each get a point reduction, 1 or 2 pts. Ymmv.

* Dire Avengers get a 3+ armor save. They are the Aspect that is about the balanced art of attack and defense after all...

* Skyhammer Devs are prohibited from carrying Grav Cannons. It seems a bit cheeky to give your rarest/most experimental tech to your "first wave" troops that will most likely die horrible deaths.

These are pretty quick and dirty. I'm sure there's more stuff that can be expanded on (I like the idea of re-working individual formations/etc).

Much as I like being able to choose...

3+ FNP, rerolling invuln saves Iron Arm Warp Speed (and Endurance if the opponent has ID) Daemon Prince... Little much.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Much as I like being able to choose...

3+ FNP, rerolling invuln saves Iron Arm Warp Speed (and Endurance if the opponent has ID) Daemon Prince... Little much.

Death Guard I assume? I imagine some defense buff stacking would be problematic for Chaos Daemons due to Greater Gifts. The point cost is up there though. Let me know if any of the other changes seem ok, or if there are any edgecases you can think of.

Nope. Daemons codex Nurgle Prince.

FNP +1 Warlord trait, 4+ FNP Greater Reward (or Endurance), invuln rerolling greater reward.

Overall, it's around 350 points. But when it has a 2+ cover (Jink plus Shrouded) followed by 3+ FNP on a T8 model (with OTHER PEOPLE buffing him, he can hit T10, even) that has a 12" move at S9 Instant Death...

I think you'd have to rework Daemonic Rewards and such entirely. They're "balanced" by being random. I'd rather they were simply all just plain balanced.

Edit: For reference, it would take 216 BS 4 Splinter shots to kill him, THE SAME AMOUNT OF MELTA SHOTS, 324 Plasma, Autocannon, or other S7 shots, 162 Lascannon shots, and even the usual go-to deleter (Grav) takes (assuming Amps) just over 155 shots.

Ignores Cover will help these numbers a lot. Multiply by .375 to figure out the number of Ignores Cover shots needed.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Nope. Daemons codex Nurgle Prince.

FNP +1 Warlord trait, 4+ FNP Greater Reward (or Endurance), invuln rerolling greater reward.

Overall, it's around 350 points. But when it has a 2+ cover (Jink plus Shrouded) followed by 3+ FNP on a T8 model (with OTHER PEOPLE buffing him, he can hit T10, even) that has a 12" move at S9 Instant Death...

I think you'd have to rework Daemonic Rewards and such entirely. They're "balanced" by being random. I'd rather they were simply all just plain balanced.

Part of me likes the idea of taking assorted options from the 4e Gav/Alessio codex and bringing them back, and making them options for individual Chaos gods oncemore. Stuff like letting Slaaneshi Heralds get access to Hit and Run, etc.

That'd be cool.

Windriders need a way more comprehensive rethink than this. Making Scatter Lasers 12" range makes them pretty much just as excessive as they used to be (assault-phase move means you're still a long charge away from anyone who wants to get into melee with you, and with a gun per model they're still way overarmed for Troops), and they still don't have anything that makes them feel like jetbikes as opposed to skinny Crisis suits. Reavers and Corsair Skyrunners have access to short-ranged/high-power weapons (fusion guns and whatnot) and are more than a speedbump in melee, Harlequin Skyweavers are fewer/tougher and an actual melee threat, but Windriders are a gunline unit that frequently just twiddles back and forth a bit while laying down a grotesquely OP hail of lasers, they don't play like jetbikes in any way.

I'd also recommend for the Eldar some changes to Distortion guns to dump the Destroyer keyword:

The D-Cannon (the weapon platform one), D-Scythe, and Heavy D-Scythe become S4/AP2 with Armourbane and Fleshbane.

The D-Flail (Warp Hunter) becomes S6/AP2 with Armourbane and Fleshbane.

The Wraithcannon (Wraithguard) becomes S10/AP2 with Armourbane and Fleshbane.

Distortion guns on superheavies may remain Destroyer strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also while we're on the subject of quick and dirty patches Grey Knights need Stealth on the infantry (resurrect the old Shrouding rule) and +1 attack per model. My homemade Codex has a whole lot of other changes besides those, but those are the ones that seem to make the most difference.

Hmm, I get what you're saying. If the Jet move was a flat 6" like 3rd-5th, it would probably be far more bearable, but I agree that Bikes definitely need some sort of "control" mechanism. Maybe preventing them from moving closer to their point of origin with the Jetbike move? ("At best, can retreat laterally")? The main problem would be tracking locations then. Personally, I feel that fixing Overwatch (detailed in the other thread) would be one way to go about fixing this, especially since 7e shooting mechanics mean that spreading out a blob/bubblewrap in ranks would limit the actual number of casualties that could be inflicted by said Scatter Lasers to those models that were in the 12" killzone.

Regarding the Fenrisian Hunting Pack, one thing that irked me about it was that the formation's main purpose ended up being not for doing "wolfpack" tactics but serving as a delivery system for beatstick characters and a superlarge unit that you could cast ginormous defensive buffs on. Spitballing on another discussion, one way to rebalance them would be:

Fenrisian Hunting Pack:
2-5 units of Fenrisian Wolves
Restriction: Each unit must have a Cyberwolf. Units may not take additional models nor may they be joined by Independent Characters.
Bonus: When a unit from this formation charges into an Assault where another unit from the same formation is fighting, it gains Hammer of Wrath. Should a unit from this formation elect to stay engaged in a multi-assault, all other units from the same Formation gain Hit and Run.

Thus the Fenrisian Wolves end up being less of a "blob of doom" and more of a "Pack Hunter" unit. When you combine it with the bonuses for running a SW Great Company, you end up being able to use the counter-charges from that detachment bonus for some fairly tricky trap-setting shenanigans.

You can look at my patches i made for various codices. I stopped doing it because 8th was announced but I can give you my space wolves edits as well.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Hmm, I get what you're saying. If the Jet move was a flat 6" like 3rd-5th, it would probably be far more bearable, but I agree that Bikes definitely need some sort of "control" mechanism. Maybe preventing them from moving closer to their point of origin with the Jetbike move? ("At best, can retreat laterally")? The main problem would be tracking locations then. Personally, I feel that fixing Overwatch (detailed in the other thread) would be one way to go about fixing this, especially since 7e shooting mechanics mean that spreading out a blob/bubblewrap in ranks would limit the actual number of casualties that could be inflicted by said Scatter Lasers to those models that were in the 12" killzone.

I am tempted to recommend a unit with one gun per three in Troops and a separate unit with the option for one gun per model in Fast Attack or Heavy Support as a compromise with the "but the kit ships with..." crowd, but I'm also thinking that the Warlock needs to be improved in combat and that the basic shuriken-catapult bike doesn't really do enough; the problem is figuring out a way to make them relevant without making them just less spiky Reavers or wimpier Shining Spears. Skilled Rider (which Reavers and Skyweavers have, but Windriders and Corsair bikes don't at the moment) would make some difference by making moving them around in terrain less bottom-clenching; thematically light cavalry archers ought to have a way to withdraw from charges while shooting, but that'd make them Warp Spiders and one unit that does that is already far too much. Leadership is kind of irrelevant already in 7th or I'd suggest some kind of pinning bonus, or possibly a way to force enemies to move or to target them over other units.

I do think that the jetbike move not working if you shot Heavy weapons is a reasonable short-term fix, though. It catches out scatterbikes without messing up too much else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can look at my patches i made for various codices. I stopped doing it because 8th was announced but I can give you my space wolves edits as well.

I would appreciate it definitely. Cheers mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Hmm, I get what you're saying. If the Jet move was a flat 6" like 3rd-5th, it would probably be far more bearable, but I agree that Bikes definitely need some sort of "control" mechanism. Maybe preventing them from moving closer to their point of origin with the Jetbike move? ("At best, can retreat laterally")? The main problem would be tracking locations then. Personally, I feel that fixing Overwatch (detailed in the other thread) would be one way to go about fixing this, especially since 7e shooting mechanics mean that spreading out a blob/bubblewrap in ranks would limit the actual number of casualties that could be inflicted by said Scatter Lasers to those models that were in the 12" killzone.

I am tempted to recommend a unit with one gun per three in Troops and a separate unit with the option for one gun per model in Fast Attack or Heavy Support as a compromise with the "but the kit ships with..." crowd, but I'm also thinking that the Warlock needs to be improved in combat and that the basic shuriken-catapult bike doesn't really do enough; the problem is figuring out a way to make them relevant without making them just less spiky Reavers or wimpier Shining Spears. Skilled Rider (which Reavers and Skyweavers have, but Windriders and Corsair bikes don't at the moment) would make some difference by making moving them around in terrain less bottom-clenching; thematically light cavalry archers ought to have a way to withdraw from charges while shooting, but that'd make them Warp Spiders and one unit that does that is already far too much. Leadership is kind of irrelevant already in 7th or I'd suggest some kind of pinning bonus, or possibly a way to force enemies to move or to target them over other units.

I do think that the jetbike move not working if you shot Heavy weapons is a reasonable short-term fix, though. It catches out scatterbikes without messing up too much else.

4+ save for the generic Guardian Jetbike, 15 pts base, up the cost of the Shuricannon/Scatpack (range-reduced and they prevent JSJ) ones to +15 for 30? Incidentally, I find it goofy that Catapult Bikes in 8th are 30 pts, while Cannon Bikes are 32 points. Removing the JsJ for Scats would round it off too. You end up with your tradeoffs between your "shotgun" mode, your "gunship" mode, or your cheap skirmish-harass mode. Maybe let non-Seer Conclave Warlocks have 2 attacks base, and some rules for "bound psyker" rules (can only toss 1 WC towards a power, but it harnesses on 2+) or so?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Hmm, I get what you're saying. If the Jet move was a flat 6" like 3rd-5th, it would probably be far more bearable, but I agree that Bikes definitely need some sort of "control" mechanism. Maybe preventing them from moving closer to their point of origin with the Jetbike move? ("At best, can retreat laterally")? The main problem would be tracking locations then. Personally, I feel that fixing Overwatch (detailed in the other thread) would be one way to go about fixing this, especially since 7e shooting mechanics mean that spreading out a blob/bubblewrap in ranks would limit the actual number of casualties that could be inflicted by said Scatter Lasers to those models that were in the 12" killzone.

I am tempted to recommend a unit with one gun per three in Troops and a separate unit with the option for one gun per model in Fast Attack or Heavy Support as a compromise with the "but the kit ships with..." crowd, but I'm also thinking that the Warlock needs to be improved in combat and that the basic shuriken-catapult bike doesn't really do enough; the problem is figuring out a way to make them relevant without making them just less spiky Reavers or wimpier Shining Spears. Skilled Rider (which Reavers and Skyweavers have, but Windriders and Corsair bikes don't at the moment) would make some difference by making moving them around in terrain less bottom-clenching; thematically light cavalry archers ought to have a way to withdraw from charges while shooting, but that'd make them Warp Spiders and one unit that does that is already far too much. Leadership is kind of irrelevant already in 7th or I'd suggest some kind of pinning bonus, or possibly a way to force enemies to move or to target them over other units.

I do think that the jetbike move not working if you shot Heavy weapons is a reasonable short-term fix, though. It catches out scatterbikes without messing up too much else.

4+ save for the generic Guardian Jetbike, 15 pts base, up the cost of the Shuricannon/Scatpack (range-reduced and they prevent JSJ) ones to +15 for 30? Incidentally, I find it goofy that Catapult Bikes in 8th are 30 pts, while Cannon Bikes are 32 points. Removing the JsJ for Scats would round it off too. You end up with your tradeoffs between your "shotgun" mode, your "gunship" mode, or your cheap skirmish-harass mode. Maybe let non-Seer Conclave Warlocks have 2 attacks base, and some rules for "bound psyker" rules (can only toss 1 WC towards a power, but it harnesses on 2+) or so?

Best-case we'd get passive powers from 4th/5th (when Warlocks just had an always-on effect instead of rolling to cast), but some kind of "bound psyker" could work.

As for the Seer Council I'd honestly argue they ought to have 2A as well; the squad really needs the whole stupid 1WC/model thing scrapped. Make them a fixed ML2 power and stop charging 35pts/model; at the moment they're a gimmick tank/deathstar that's wildly overpriced and only works if you roll the right list of three or four powers and cast all of them every turn.