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2017/06/09 02:35:21
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch
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As far as I can tell, piling in and consolidating have the same rules. They just happen at different times. I am going to call them "fight moves" for my questions:
1. Are fight moves a "sort of move"? What kind of dumb question is that? Well...
2. Does a unit have to maintain unit coherency at the end of fight moves? You're supposed to be in coherency after any sort of move, right?
3. If a unit is out of coheremcy, and a fight move can get it into coherency, are you forced to do this?
4. If a unit is out of coherency, and cannot fight move into coherency, what is it allowed to do?
5. A unit has to stay in coherency when it charges, right? At least this much is clear?
6. If a 30 model unit gets into a six foot long conga line, and has the middle shot out of it so that even a normal move can't get back into coherency, what is it allowed to do?
I haven't played in a long time, so I don't know how much of this was also a problem in 7th edition. I imagine messy combats with units splitting apart in the fight phase should be pretty frequent, though maybe not the norm.
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2017/06/09 02:44:03
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'd been reading any instance of moving a model as a kind of "move" as described in the Movement phase rules. So reading in the various rules about what it actually means to move something, that you can't move through stuff, that things with Fly ignore models and terrain, etc. I'm not sure we have a great definition of moving aside from that. Although come to think of it these rules themselves aren't terribly clear as to whether models can use some of their movement allowance to go in one direction, then turn and go another direction (though surely this is intended). Note that the Movement phase rules seem to specify that some things are only true of moves in the Movement phase while at other times talking about moves in general.
2. The coherency rules seem particularly explicit, don't they? "A unit must... finish any sort of move as a group". "Any sort" seems very strong.
3-4. I would say yes, you are forced to use fight moves to regain coherency. But this is subject to the other constraints on fight moves. If you can't regain coherency by only moving models closer to the nearest enemy model, then you can't move.
5. I'd say yes, a charge move is a kind of "move".
6. It could Advance and see if that gets it enough distance. Otherwise I think that RAW it is not allowed to move.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 02:50:50
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2017/06/09 03:31:51
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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Dionysodorus wrote:I'd been reading any instance of moving a model as a kind of "move" as described in the Movement phase rules. So reading in the various rules about what it actually means to move something, that you can't move through stuff, that things with Fly ignore models and terrain, etc. I'm not sure we have a great definition of moving aside from that. Although come to think of it these rules themselves aren't terribly clear as to whether models can use some of their movement allowance to go in one direction, then turn and go another direction (though surely this is intended). Note that the Movement phase rules seem to specify that some things are only true of moves in the Movement phase while at other times talking about moves in general.
2. The coherency rules seem particularly explicit, don't they? "A unit must... finish any sort of move as a group". "Any sort" seems very strong.
3-4. I would say yes, you are forced to use fight moves to regain coherency. But this is subject to the other constraints on fight moves. If you can't regain coherency by only moving models closer to the nearest enemy model, then you can't move.
5. I'd say yes, a charge move is a kind of "move".
6. It could Advance and see if that gets it enough distance. Otherwise I think that RAW it is not allowed to move.
Yep, he's got it all right.
There are a number of RAW situations that essentially prevent a unit from moving if they can't get back into coherency and/or if the prescribed movement would end up breaking coherency, which is pretty stupid, IMHO.
If I had written the rules, I believe Pile In and Consolidation moves should always be made, yes with every attempt to maintain (or restore) coherency, but if that can't happen following the 'move towards the nearest model' rule, then you should still be able to make the move following that second guideline.
Similarly, the general coherency rules should be that with each move you must make every attempt to bring the unit back into coherency as soon as possible. That way, you wouldn't be stuck not being able to move the unit if you find yourself in a situation where a single move can't restore coherency.
The one good thing about all this is that because you can choose where casualties come from, you often have the ability to prevent these kinds of debacles. Plus with there being no templates, there's a lot less need to string your units out...though using a unit to bubblewrap and/or stay within range of a character's aura can often cause pretty stretched out unit formations.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 03:32:03
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2017/06/09 20:56:56
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Screaming Shining Spear
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to move this along....lets say you have 2 massive hills and LOS is blocked on the 30 model line at both ends by the hills.
YOU have your best pieces in the middle between the hills and in LOS to the attacking unit.
So when the attacking unit kills 10 of the models in unit that they can see....but cant see models at either end....
Is this a situation where you MUST kill the best pieces in LOS or can you now kill the models out of LOS at either end blocked by the hills so you don't have a unit coherency issue?????
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koooaei wrote:We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice. |
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2017/06/09 21:12:01
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Longtime Dakkanaut
*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*
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No, the shooting rules specifically state that casualties may be taken from models that are outside of range and/or line of sight from the shooting unit. It would be the owners choice to remove casualties in a way that might result in a break in unit coherency in that case, at which point they would have to "re-establish unit coherency the next time it moves".
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He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. |
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2017/06/09 21:13:19
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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admironheart wrote:to move this along....lets say you have 2 massive hills and LOS is blocked on the 30 model line at both ends by the hills.
YOU have your best pieces in the middle between the hills and in LOS to the attacking unit.
So when the attacking unit kills 10 of the models in unit that they can see....but cant see models at either end....
Is this a situation where you MUST kill the best pieces in LOS or can you now kill the models out of LOS at either end blocked by the hills so you don't have a unit coherency issue?????
You can pull any casualties you want, line of sight and/or range has no impact on this.
Now, if you get to a point where you can't re-establish coherency with a single move (even with an advance), then per the RAW you can't move. I'd guess many players will still allow you to move in that case so long as you make every effort to move as close to re-establishing coherency as possible. That's also what I'd hope GW will rule if/when they FAQ this issue.
Until then, if you want to play by the RAW, a unit in that position just can't move. Of course any further casualties you take on the unit you can then start killing off one portion or the other of the unit to eventually resolve the problem.
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2017/06/09 23:14:12
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Can units fly when they charge?
When units Pile In or Consolidate, are they forced to move closer to the nearest model, even if it's a different unit?
Can a figure move through enemy figures being assaulted when doing a Pile In or Consolidate?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 23:18:45
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2017/06/10 01:08:11
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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xmbk wrote:Can units fly when they charge?
When units Pile In or Consolidate, are they forced to move closer to the nearest model, even if it's a different unit?
Can a figure move through enemy figures being assaulted when doing a Pile In or Consolidate?
1) Although the rules for 'fly' are found in the movement phase section, I think we can safely assume that those rules apply to all moves, because if we don't then all the other movement phase rules (like how far models are able to move, not moving through other models and terrain) are all out the door and there's absolutely no rules governing how models move in other phases. So if we accept the basic tenants of movement apply in every phase, then the fly rules should also apply. So short answer is: yes, models can (and do) fly when they charge, pile-in and consolidate.
2) Yes, if models choose to pile in or consolidate this always most be towards the nearest enemy model, and must not result in the unit losing coherency. If these two requirements cannot be met, then the models cannot pile in or consolidate.
3) Nope, see #1. The basic movement tenants prohibit models from moving through other models, so the only times that can happen is when the rules specifically say that its allowed (such as for flying creatures, etc).
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2017/06/10 16:22:50
Subject: Re:8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thanks. Does a Flying unit still count as being within 1" of an enemy model that it charges over? In other words, can you use Fly to charge over a screening unit, given enough move?
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2017/06/10 17:07:20
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Norn Queen
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Fly ignores other models and terrain for the purpose of movement. As long as it ends its move more than 1" from an enemy unit your fine.
You can move over enemy model to charge, but if you end your move 1" or less from the screening unit they are now also part of the combat. If you did not declare them a target of the charge they can hit you and you cannot hit them.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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2017/06/10 20:09:30
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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Lance845 wrote:Fly ignores other models and terrain for the purpose of movement. As long as it ends its move more than 1" from an enemy unit your fine.
You can move over enemy model to charge, but if you end your move 1" or less from the screening unit they are now also part of the combat. If you did not declare them a target of the charge they can hit you and you cannot hit them.
Just to be clear: you can't end a charge within 1" of an enemy unit you didn't declare a charge against. So you're only going to end up within 1" of an enemy model you didn't charge by using your pile-in move.
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2017/06/12 02:16:29
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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just wanted to clarify that you can now engage other enemy models out of the combat during Pile in and consolidation moves ?
if so..
during pile in...the enemy can participate in the combat ?
during consolidation...the enemy can not participate in the combat ?
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2017/06/12 02:24:39
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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yakface wrote: Lance845 wrote:Fly ignores other models and terrain for the purpose of movement. As long as it ends its move more than 1" from an enemy unit your fine.
You can move over enemy model to charge, but if you end your move 1" or less from the screening unit they are now also part of the combat. If you did not declare them a target of the charge they can hit you and you cannot hit them.
Just to be clear: you can't end a charge within 1" of an enemy unit you didn't declare a charge against. So you're only going to end up within 1" of an enemy model you didn't charge by using your pile-in move.
Here is a question, if pile-in and consolidate are considered movement, then is it possible to finish these moves within 1" of a model in a unit you did not charge? Isn't charging the only time we are given permission to end our movement within 1"?
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2017/06/12 03:30:43
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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zedsdead wrote:just wanted to clarify that you can now engage other enemy models out of the combat during Pile in and consolidation moves ?
if so..
during pile in...the enemy can participate in the combat ?
during consolidation...the enemy can not participate in the combat ?
Both pile in moves and consolidate moves happen as part of a single unit 'fighting'. So yes, when they're done with their fighting, if they are now within 1" of an enemy unit, that enemy unit will be able to fight back against them now. So its a really sharp double-edged sword to pile in/consolidate into an enemy unit, as you're now allowing them to attack you back when they otherwise wouldn't be able to.
ClassicCarraway wrote:Here is a question, if pile-in and consolidate are considered movement, then is it possible to finish these moves within 1" of a model in a unit you did not charge? Isn't charging the only time we are given permission to end our movement within 1"?
The rules saying you have to stay more than 1" away from enemy models do clearly specify the 'movement phase', so any other phase besides the movement phase (excluding units moving in other phases 'as if it were the movement phase') can move within 1" of enemy models.
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2017/07/26 13:37:09
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Fresh-Faced New User
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What would happen in this situation? can move groups of models from the same unit make the same move distance of their movement characteristic towards each other.
http://imgur.com/QMk2lTN
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2017/07/26 15:04:33
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Step 2 is illegal.
The unit must still stay in coherency at all times.
So the situation shown literally cannot happen within the rules. Red team remains strung along in a line and only a few of them can fight.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:06:16
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/26 19:15:16
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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Kommissar Kel wrote:Step 2 is illegal.
The unit must still stay in coherency at all times.
So the situation shown literally cannot happen within the rules. Red team remains strung along in a line and only a few of them can fight.
Agreed. In addition, know that it is possible for a unit to get to a point where it cannot possibly regain coherency with a single move (just from casualties being removed), in which case GW's FAQ makes it clear such a unit is not allowed to move at all.
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2017/07/26 19:40:42
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Yes. And that also is a kind of goofy ruling imho. Forced advance(and possibly forced morale test) until they get into coherency would have been a little better; but I guess GW just really doesn't want daisy-chained units. Then again, wound allocation is completely discretionary; so I suppose if a player breaks up his unit in such a way, that is the players fault for stun-locking his own unit.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/26 19:57:20
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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v1g1lant3 wrote:What would happen in this situation? can move groups of models from the same unit make the same move distance of their movement characteristic towards each other.
http://imgur.com/QMk2lTN
As far as I know, all models are allowed to move to try to get coherency
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2017/07/26 20:16:49
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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torblind wrote:v1g1lant3 wrote:What would happen in this situation? can move groups of models from the same unit make the same move distance of their movement characteristic towards each other.
http://imgur.com/QMk2lTN
As far as I know, all models are allowed to move to try to get coherency
Check the designers notes: if it cannot make it into coherency; the unit cannot move.
And as far as how Red team got split up in those images: they could not do that in the rules to begin with.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 20:18:24
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/26 20:28:30
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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With 4" move they should be able to make it to coherency?
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2017/07/26 23:09:16
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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They do not ever get to image 4 because image 2 is illegal.
If the unit took casualties in the middle line(not as described in the imigur post); then they could, in theory, make the move back into coherency if 1 model from each group could do so.
As described though; none of it can happen and the best choice for the red team player would be to take causalities from 1 blue team, pile in towards the second, and suffer a second charge while trying to take out the blue unit still engaged.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/26 23:13:27
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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Kommissar Kel wrote:
They do not ever get to image 4 because image 2 is illegal.
If the unit took casualties in the middle line(not as described in the imigur post); then they could, in theory, make the move back into coherency if 1 model from each group could do so.
As described though; none of it can happen and the best choice for the red team player would be to take causalities from 1 blue team, pile in towards the second, and suffer a second charge while trying to take out the blue unit still engaged.
Let's not forget as well that if the red player pulled all the casualties away from the other blue unit that has yet to fight he will likely be able to prevent that second blue unit from even getting make their attacks (if he can pull all the casualties from within 4" of them), which is even more incentive not to pull casualties from the middle of your unit in a case like that.
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2017/07/27 01:37:48
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Yes; we just didn't have that variable presented to us and this is not the proper forum for a tactics discussion. .
But as yakface brought ut up and image 1 shows only a single model on red team in base-to-base, then image 2 would still have had all models closest to blue 2 not moving and models closest to blue 1 moving closer while. Models closer to blue 1 separate causing possible later problems but being within the rules(and still no reaching image 4 as blue 2 would still exist).
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/27 16:35:32
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Hmm okay. So in step two, models from the middle were taken as casualties. I assumed then as when they made a pile in they had to go to the closest enemy model but ofc they couldn't make the pile in because it would take them further out of coherency.
So say they didn't pile in but both blue units died. I am out of coherency because I took models from the middle because i wanted to lock both blue units in place. What movements can i use to get back into coherency? obviously i can't consolidate because i couldn't get back into coherency with the one move. Can i use my movement phase with my move characteristic, and if so can both groups of models move like in stage 4? both moving 4 inches each towards each other.
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2017/07/27 18:24:08
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Ah yes. Certainly in the next movement phase if they can reachieve coherency, they would be allowed to move.
Under no circumstance can they pile in to break unit coherency as Kel points out.
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2017/07/27 20:04:59
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Fresh-Faced New User
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cheers, hard to find the answer. Guys are GW shop told me they can only move in the pile in to regain coherency, didnt sound right because it could take like 3 pile ins to get back.
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2017/07/27 20:12:06
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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You can also advance in your movement phase(if the distance happened to be greater than 10") to get within coherency. Of course that would limit the units options after the move.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2017/07/28 09:48:13
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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Fresh-Faced New User
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cheers guys. So thats regaining coherency when you're not locked in combat, but what if you are?
For instance for some reason i take models from the middle of a chain and there is an enemy unit at the end of the chain you are still in combat with, when it comes to the next movement phase can i move the ones out of coherency as normal to bring them into coherency? even if your unit is engaged in combat.
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2017/07/28 10:37:49
Subject: 8th Pile In and Consolidation and Coherency
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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v1g1lant3 wrote:cheers guys. So thats regaining coherency when you're not locked in combat, but what if you are?
For instance for some reason i take models from the middle of a chain and there is an enemy unit at the end of the chain you are still in combat with, when it comes to the next movement phase can i move the ones out of coherency as normal to bring them into coherency? even if your unit is engaged in combat.
You cannot make a move if doing so will end up with your unit out of coherency. So if you're out of coherency already and the move would not allow your unit to get back into coherency, you cannot make that move at all, which can often happen with pile-in and consolidation moves, as you are forced to move models only towards the nearest enemy model.
In the example you describe, in the movement phase (if some models in your unit are within 1" of enemy models) then you can only make a fall back move, and if you do that, then all models in the unit must end that move more than 1" away from the enemy (and of course, also in coherency).
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