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2017/06/13 14:31:52
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
After reading through the new fluff in total, it seems incredibly likely that cawl has already created primaris marines from traitor legion geneseed. Now, when these new primaris marine chapters are founded, will they be called the luna hounds or dusk raiders? Probably not. But reading the foreshadowing about cawl, his lust for power, and guilliman believing he will be an issue, it seems likely that traitor primaris marines are already created in stasis.
I for one would love to have this. I imagine there is probably a healthy dose of confirmation bias as I am planning on starting my primaris chapter using the helm and shoulder upgrades for the thousand sons.
2017/06/13 14:38:14
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
the42up wrote: After reading through the new fluff in total, it seems incredibly likely that cawl has already created primaris marines from traitor legion geneseed. Now, when these new primaris marine chapters are founded, will they be called the luna hounds or dusk raiders? Probably not. But reading the foreshadowing about cawl, his lust for power, and guilliman believing he will be an issue, it seems likely that traitor primaris marines are already created in stasis.
I for one would love to have this. I imagine there is probably a healthy dose of confirmation bias as I am planning on starting my primaris chapter using the helm and shoulder upgrades for the thousand sons.
If you read Dark Imperium, it's confirmed that he has created an initial batch of Primaris Marines from all TWENTY Primarch geneseeds. What that means is anyone's guess.
Best case scenario... He created a handful of test Marines to prove the process worked on all geneseeds and then terminated the "experiments".
Worst case scenario... He has Legion strength numbers of Primaris Marines in stasis from the Traitor Legions AND from the missing two Primarchs.
The reality is probably somewhere in between. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Cawl has hundreds or thousands of Traitor geneseed Primaris Marines in stasis. I doubt he has tens of thousands.
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I wonder where he sourced the recruits from? In the Dark Imperium book it seems like most of the grey shields came from the same worlds as the old legions, but I don't think that this would be possible for the traitors. If Cawl and his faction are in charge of Primaris creation and testing there could for example be a whole chapter of marines recruited from Ultramar but with Luna wolves geenseed and no one(even the marines) would know about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 18:42:27
2017/06/13 18:51:13
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
It depends when Cawl started 'collecting' recruits - it's possible it was before the outbreak of the Heresy. Also, Legion recruits came from many different worlds, and could be transferred between Legions - Scars has some White Scars who were originally meant to be Luna Wolves\Sons of Horus.
(Although the Wolfspear Marines actually being World Eaters rather than Space Wolves might explain why they didn't get sent back to Fenris :-) )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 18:55:29
2017/06/13 19:10:23
Subject: Re:Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
This has me genuinely interested in how the fluff will advance, particularly with the Traitor and Missing Legions Gene-seed being implemented into the Primaris Marines. It just raises all kinds of questions:
- Will the genetic defects start to manifest? Thousand Sons had warp mutations turning them into Chaos Spawn, yes? How about the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels?
- How do the Primaris feel about coming from Traitor/Missing Legions?
- Are they going to answer some questions about the Missing Legions? (I sure hope not, as it would take one of the great mysteries away from the setting.)
- How will the Loyalist Astartes handle the new Traitors? What if Leman Russ comes back and learns of Thousand Sons Primaris being deployed on the field?
The potential there is great, and I hope that GW doesn't screw it up too badly.
2017/06/13 19:23:32
Subject: Re:Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Now, the Primaris Space Marines. We have a century of data. How are they performing?’
‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl repeats that all gene-lines continue to operate at peak efficiency. Tested gene-seed reveals a mutational deviancy of less than 0.001% per generation. All Adeptus Astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, replacing those zygotes lost through improper treatment or evolutionary variance, with the addition of the three new implants. All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation. As can be expected, those new Primaris-strain Chapters founded by you, my lord, have the lowest error rate. The new equipment functions well. Requests for resupply with the new type of battle-brother and their associated weaponry have increased, suggesting a ninety-four per cent acceptance rate among the Chapters.’
‘What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’ Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.
‘My standard response remains unchanged. Archmagos Belisarius Cawl understands your reservations. The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previousunstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. I will restate Archmagos Belisarius Cawl’s position on this matter. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.
‘Furthermore, he has continued experimental implantation and monitoring of the thus-far unused gene-seed in experimental test subjects. That of the Second, Third, Fourth, Eighth, Eleventh, Twelfth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Twentieth Legions all show no sign of degradation or incidence of unwelcome tendencies within the recipients. All is well, my lord, Archmagos Belisarius Cawl reassures you. He is so satisfied that I am instructed to repeat his request that those gene-lines be put into full production and be allowed to serve the Imperium as the Emperor intended.’
‘No,’ said Guilliman firmly. ‘I cannot allow it.’
So Traitor Legion Primaris are only "experimental test subjects" at this point, and Cawl has 'tinkered' with the defects but completely removed them.
2017/06/13 20:31:54
Subject: Re:Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Now, the Primaris Space Marines. We have a century of data. How are they performing?’
‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl repeats that all gene-lines continue to operate at peak efficiency. Tested gene-seed reveals a mutational deviancy of less than 0.001% per generation. All Adeptus Astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, replacing those zygotes lost through improper treatment or evolutionary variance, with the addition of the three new implants. All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation. As can be expected, those new Primaris-strain Chapters founded by you, my lord, have the lowest error rate. The new equipment functions well. Requests for resupply with the new type of battle-brother and their associated weaponry have increased, suggesting a ninety-four per cent acceptance rate among the Chapters.’
‘What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’ Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.
‘My standard response remains unchanged. Archmagos Belisarius Cawl understands your reservations. The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previousunstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. I will restate Archmagos Belisarius Cawl’s position on this matter. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.
‘Furthermore, he has continued experimental implantation and monitoring of the thus-far unused gene-seed in experimental test subjects. That of the Second, Third, Fourth, Eighth, Eleventh, Twelfth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Twentieth Legions all show no sign of degradation or incidence of unwelcome tendencies within the recipients. All is well, my lord, Archmagos Belisarius Cawl reassures you. He is so satisfied that I am instructed to repeat his request that those gene-lines be put into full production and be allowed to serve the Imperium as the Emperor intended.’
‘No,’ said Guilliman firmly. ‘I cannot allow it.’
So Traitor Legion Primaris are only "experimental test subjects" at this point, and Cawl has 'tinkered' with the defects but completely removed them.
it's possiable Cawl has already made space marines from traitor geneseed and just hasn't TOLD Gulliman
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/13 21:01:49
Subject: Re:Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
it's possiable Cawl has already made space marines from traitor geneseed and just hasn't TOLD Gulliman
This is my thought. If guilliman had said "yeah cawl, that's cool, we need all the marines we can get". Cawl would have said, "well funny you say that because let me show you all these marines I have waiting".
I think that this will be a future point of contention that has been foreshadowed. Guilliman will find out that cawl has, in fact, created a legion from traitor gene seed.
2017/06/13 21:13:14
Subject: Re:Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
it's possiable Cawl has already made space marines from traitor geneseed and just hasn't TOLD Gulliman
This is my thought. If guilliman had said "yeah cawl, that's cool, we need all the marines we can get". Cawl would have said, "well funny you say that because let me show you all these marines I have waiting".
I think that this will be a future point of contention that has been foreshadowed. Guilliman will find out that cawl has, in fact, created a legion from traitor gene seed.
I doubt it'll ever be revealed one way or another, GW has ALWAYS liked to allude to the possiability of traitor sucessors without explictly confirming it
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/13 22:49:15
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
I really would make the argument that o matter what gene-seed was used, the Primaris will not by nature be traitors or in any way tainted. It's a case of nature vs. nurture.
2017/06/14 10:21:36
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Aetare wrote: I really would make the argument that o matter what gene-seed was used, the Primaris will not by nature be traitors or in any way tainted. It's a case of nature vs. nurture.
This point is expressed in the book.
‘The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their Primarchs were.
It is an impressive claim, particularly for Geneseed like the Thousand Sons where the Flash Change was rampant long before Magnus was tricked by Tzeentch. The implication that Cawl has stabilised it is interesting.
Remember though that the Emperor seems to have planned the Space Marines to be around for just a few centuries. They were made for the Great Crusade just as the preceding Thunder Warriors were made for the Unification Wars. He didn't spend more time than he needed to perfect the Marines as they were designed to do a job and then fade away. The Custodes seem to have been the perfected version of the technology and were created in much smaller numbers.
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2017/06/14 10:49:26
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Some friendly Alpha Legionaires were more than happy to provide what he was looking for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BunkhouseBuster wrote: This has me genuinely interested in how the fluff will advance, particularly with the Traitor and Missing Legions Gene-seed being implemented into the Primaris Marines. It just raises all kinds of questions:
- Will the genetic defects start to manifest? Thousand Sons had warp mutations turning them into Chaos Spawn, yes? How about the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels?
- How do the Primaris feel about coming from Traitor/Missing Legions?
- Are they going to answer some questions about the Missing Legions? (I sure hope not, as it would take one of the great mysteries away from the setting.)
- How will the Loyalist Astartes handle the new Traitors? What if Leman Russ comes back and learns of Thousand Sons Primaris being deployed on the field?
The potential there is great, and I hope that GW doesn't screw it up too badly.
Remember that for 10,000 years, the Ad Mech has created and maintained vast stocks of traintor geneseed. They did so because, 'it's good to have just in case' and because most people didnt know. They have created new chapters of regular marines from chaos gene seed, again purely because people didnt know.
So the Primais marines that come from traitor gene seed likely dont know they come from traitor stock.
Loyalist Astartes certainly dont know they are traitors.
Leman Russ is rather dim. If he came back, he certainly wouldnt know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 14:41:10
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2017/06/15 09:43:10
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Well without their Primarchs/recruitment worlds to lead them astray the traitor legions generally would have been fine.
World Eaters without butchers nails
Word Bearers without being forced to turn from their Imperial Faith
Death Guard without their insane loyalty to Mortarion, and Barbarus' taint on their souls
Night Lords without Curze or all being murderers and rapists from a young age
Iron Warriors before having to do the worst warfare for the Emperor, battles of attrition without nurturing their true passions
Sons of Horus without their Primarch being corrupted and the lodges
Emperor's children had Fulgrim actually been warned about chaos
Alpha Legion... Well... Not sure about this one. Might be an exception?
Thousand Sons, again Magnus being a spoilt child wrecked it for them.
Plus with other chapters being runored to have the their geneseed already from the cursed founding, I genuinely couldn't see the harm in using the benefits of those geneseed again.
Except maybe Alpha Legion.
2017/06/15 10:01:10
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Rippy wrote: Well without their Primarchs/recruitment worlds to lead them astray the traitor legions generally would have been fine.
World Eaters without butchers nails
Word Bearers without being forced to turn from their Imperial Faith
Death Guard without their insane loyalty to Mortarion, and Barbarus' taint on their souls
Night Lords without Curze or all being murderers and rapists from a young age
Iron Warriors before having to do the worst warfare for the Emperor, battles of attrition without nurturing their true passions
Sons of Horus without their Primarch being corrupted and the lodges
Emperor's children had Fulgrim actually been warned about chaos
Alpha Legion... Well... Not sure about this one. Might be an exception?
Thousand Sons, again Magnus being a spoilt child wrecked it for them.
Plus with other chapters being runored to have the their geneseed already from the cursed founding, I genuinely couldn't see the harm in using the benefits of those geneseed again.
Except maybe Alpha Legion.
Pretty accurate when you look at it. Except the Thousand Sons. They'd all be dead shortly after they would have found Magnus.
It depends, really, on whether Chaos has its claws in the geneseed because of the connection they have with their Primarchs (from who their geneseed is drawn). It could well be that even without Butchers Nails, Khorne will always have some influence over any World Eaters descendant...
Even if they make marines from all of the original legions, the marines made from the legions who went traitor cannot possibly be classified as traitor since they have no exposure to chaos or the warp. These are clones who will have their own memories, their own personalities and such will have no reason to be traitor. These will be reflections of the original legionnairs before the fall except, according to Cawl, no flaws. To the question of where did Cawl get these said geneseed. Does anyone truly believe that the emporer in all of his genious not think to keep a full version aside for a "just in case" moment such as this. I truly believe that before the HH went down, when the Emporer left The Great Cusade for a "Matter of Great Importance" this very well could have been this matter. Also to give the geneseed over the the Ad Mech to guard would have made perfect sense since they are the only ones still with any ties to the "old world".
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If you frolic in the forest and sparkle in the sun you are a FAIRY, not a VAMPIRE.
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2017/06/15 19:35:32
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Well, they could be easily classified as traitor SGrimhart, if the inquisition caught wind of their heritage. It wouldn't be a wise move to push new Primaris to Chaos by declaring them traitors or failing to purge them, but when has that ever stopped the inquisition?
2017/06/15 19:40:05
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Rippy wrote: Well, they could be easily classified as traitor SGrimhart, if the inquisition caught wind of their heritage. It wouldn't be a wise move to push new Primaris to Chaos by declaring them traitors or failing to purge them, but when has that ever stopped the inquisition?
Truth
RxGhost wrote:Twilight doesn't have vampires.
If you frolic in the forest and sparkle in the sun you are a FAIRY, not a VAMPIRE.
Mortality is for those who are to afraid to be great!!
2500pts Oruscar Dynasty-The re-awakening has come 1500pts Angels Sanguine
Newly started WoC Army
2017/06/15 20:42:41
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
very interesting, I didn't even really think about the possibility of traitor geneseed use. I have been pondering how it seems likely that chaos(or maybe even xenos, eldar did help in releasing girlyman afterall.). so maybe girlyman is under some level of hippy magic? or maybe cawl is the one who has gone rouge and is an agent of chaos, which chaos seems to always be in favor of the long con... soooo maybe they are even more susceptible to gene flaws or just have chaos baked in. who knows, I just hope this is not just a bland "oh they are new people and that's that with em." and instead hope that this turns into an interested tale.
xNerdCorex
2017/06/15 20:46:00
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
Books wrote: very interesting, I didn't even really think about the possibility of traitor geneseed use. I have been pondering how it seems likely that chaos(or maybe even xenos, eldar did help in releasing girlyman afterall.). so maybe girlyman is under some level of hippy magic? or maybe cawl is the one who has gone rouge and is an agent of chaos, which chaos seems to always be in favor of the long con... soooo maybe they are even more susceptible to gene flaws or just have chaos baked in. who knows, I just hope this is not just a bland "oh they are new people and that's that with em." and instead hope that this turns into an interested tale.
traitor geneseed doesn't necessitate chaos being involved. the geneseed is just geneseed. that said Gulliman has expressly forbid it's use. Cawl however has said he's been tinkering with it and could make sucessors at any time, and for all Guliman knows already HAS
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/15 22:00:39
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
might be GW marketing genious. actually make the 2 lost legions vastly different and now primaris only. their tactics and equipment all different than any other chapter... boom instant sales
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2017/06/16 01:10:19
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
G00fySmiley wrote: might be GW marketing genious. actually make the 2 lost legions vastly different and now primaris only. their tactics and equipment all different than any other chapter... boom instant sales
I don't think they'll ever really address what happened to those legions. If any news of them was revealed it would ruin the mystique and narrative potential that the game feeds on.
2017/06/16 02:29:15
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
G00fySmiley wrote: might be GW marketing genious. actually make the 2 lost legions vastly different and now primaris only. their tactics and equipment all different than any other chapter... boom instant sales
I don't think they'll ever really address what happened to those legions. If any news of them was revealed it would ruin the mystique and narrative potential that the game feeds on.
agreed. by now I suspect whatever GW could write just wou;dn't sastify compared to peoples imaginations.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/16 03:57:34
Subject: Has cawl already created primaris marines from the traitor legions?
SGrimhart wrote: Even if they make marines from all of the original legions, the marines made from the legions who went traitor cannot possibly be classified as traitor since they have no exposure to chaos or the warp. These are clones who will have their own memories, their own personalities and such will have no reason to be traitor. These will be reflections of the original legionnairs before the fall except, according to Cawl, no flaws. To the question of where did Cawl get these said geneseed. Does anyone truly believe that the emporer in all of his genious not think to keep a full version aside for a "just in case" moment such as this. I truly believe that before the HH went down, when the Emporer left The Great Cusade for a "Matter of Great Importance" this very well could have been this matter. Also to give the geneseed over the the Ad Mech to guard would have made perfect sense since they are the only ones still with any ties to the "old world".
The thing is that the Imperium isn't driven by knowledge or truth, it's driven by dogma and religious fervour. It doesn't matter if they are actually traitors. It only matters that they're connected to them. For many in the Imperium, that would be cause enough to purge them there and then. Remember, the Imperium fairly routinely cleanses whole worlds for fear of Chaos taint (the citizens aren't necessarily actually corrupted, but there's a risk that the Inquisition feel is too great compared to the benefits).
As to whether they will actually turn traitor or not, it depends on how deeply Chaos has its claws into the geneseed of the traitors. If there's a connection there, they may begin to wheedle their way into the minds of Primaris, just as they did the Primarchs and Astartes.
Oh, and the 'Matter of Importance' has been revealed to be the Golden Throne, which was a device to make a human-controlled portal into the webway. That way, humanity's reliance on warp travel would be broken and the Chaos gods would be further weakened. Plus, he could finally wipe out the tricksy Eldar.
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