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I don't understand the fascination with giving Orks Heavy weapons - if they ever move, they're hitting on a 6+; making Battlewagons mandatory. This isn't my complaint though.

My real complaint is that despite our guns being BS5+, our guns aren't compensated with more bullets - it's disheartening to see armies of the Imperium/other factions having a 3+/4+ BS, and getting more shots, and usually with a better statline.

I want to roll buckets of dice, dammit. I don't care if it's generally ineffective; that's not the point. I get that Orks are a melee focused army, and will roll a ton of dice when they reach combat - but I want to do that with my shooting too. It's one of the things from older editions that hasn't seem to have carried over. It's not about the effectiveness of shooting, it's about the amount of dice - and when I see other factions getting more shots at better BS/weapon statlines, I can't help but feel slighted.

On the bright side though, we've got Dakkajets! Brutally effective this edition - ton's of shots, 4+/5+ shooting - they dakka things real dead.

I have played against Orks and I found their volume of dice in the shooting phase, coming from their shooting units, to be real scary. 30 Lootahs in a 2000 point game isn't that expensive overall, considering they're throwing about 60 dice per turn at a 48" range.

Tank Bustas are actually solid anti-vehicle, with their rerolling hits.

If your ranged was any better, your melee would be far too strong.

Quantity is it's own quality.

I get where you're coming from - MOAR DAKKA!!! but if you want to stick to the fluff, boyz don't seem to care whether they hit anything or not. The dice have their own separate maths....

I don't think the -1 to hit when moving matters as much for Lootas due to their long range.

It matters more for Flash Gitz due to them only having a range of 24". Has there been an official answer on Mobile Fortress yet? If Battlewagons and other vehicles with that rule mean that they can move around and shoot without penalty it solves that problem, and the bigger problem of their 6+ save. It is a shame if they only work in conjuction with vehicles, though. Maybe a small unit would be good as a bodyguard for Big Gunz or Mek Gunz?

I think our shooting is okay. It didn't benefit as much from the changes as most other armies did, but I think it's still okay. The only thing that seems bad to me are the 5+ to hit blast weapons. I guess Flakka Gunz and the Lifta-Droppa also don't seem very good.

Are you looking at shots per point? Other than Guard (and maybe nids) I'm struggling to find armies putting out more shots for the same number of points.

A unit of 30 shoota boyz has 60 shots for 180 points, or 3 points per shot. I'm not sure who is putting out much more than that. Conscripts in rapid fire are twice that good as they are half the cost, but that is S3 shooting. Guradsman similarly are 2 points per shot with lasguns (so lower strength). Now guardsman are even better when we consider hits per point, but they are a shooting unit. Devourer Termagants are 2.6 points per shot, but again they are a horde shooting unit.

I'm struggling to find all these loads of Heavy weapons that absolutely need to move and shoot in the Ork Index.

Breng77 wrote:
Are you looking at shots per point? Other than Guard (and maybe nids) I'm struggling to find armies putting out more shots for the same number of points.

A unit of 30 shoota boyz has 60 shots for 180 points, or 3 points per shot. I'm not sure who is putting out much more than that. Conscripts in rapid fire are twice that good as they are half the cost, but that is S3 shooting. Guradsman similarly are 2 points per shot with lasguns (so lower strength). Now guardsman are even better when we consider hits per point, but they are a shooting unit. Devourer Termagants are 2.6 points per shot, but again they are a horde shooting unit.

Tau?

Fire Warriors under a Fireblade have S5 guns at 2.6 points per shot + Fireblade

...That's kind of odd. I'd like to see Orks not hitting more shots than I do (Marines, Eldar) when they already get more dice than I do.

Though that may just be because I'm seeing an endless parade of Flash Gitz in battlewaggons (BS 4+, rerolling 1s, and rerolling ten more dice from the ammo runts) on the table, and they have a 17% chance to get a second shooting phase too.

Are shootas still S4 18"range assault 2?

I've found Ork Heavy Weapons to be completely useless outside of Battle Wagons and Lobbas. Even if they don't move, which things like Lootas don't always have to do, they're just so easy to shoot off without protection. Mek Gunz and all that, while initially looking underpriced when the leaks came, no strike me as overpriced for their output, accuracy, and footprint. I've honestly cut off all Heavy Weapons unless I'm playing mechanized.

Ork Shooting period is pretty decent though. Just the volume of Pistols/Shootas I put out in games has been surprising people and my 30 man unit that gets Da Jump duty regularly puts a hurt on anything but MEQ. I've also found Lobbas to be really good, unfortunately they're just super overpriced compared to a Mortar but have the same role so I have trouble justifying them outside of lists like Kan Wall.

 Talamare wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Are you looking at shots per point? Other than Guard (and maybe nids) I'm struggling to find armies putting out more shots for the same number of points.

A unit of 30 shoota boyz has 60 shots for 180 points, or 3 points per shot. I'm not sure who is putting out much more than that. Conscripts in rapid fire are twice that good as they are half the cost, but that is S3 shooting. Guradsman similarly are 2 points per shot with lasguns (so lower strength). Now guardsman are even better when we consider hits per point, but they are a shooting unit. Devourer Termagants are 2.6 points per shot, but again they are a horde shooting unit.

Tau?

Fire Warriors under a Fireblade have S5 guns at 2.6 points per shot + Fireblade

And the fireblade costs? That is like saying Boyz under Ghazkull have 1.2 points per attack. You are not accounting for the points paid for that extra attack.

WTF are you on about?

The Only 6+ to hit while moving are Big/Mek guns(Which Last edition could NOT move and fire AT ALL), Defguns(Same as last edition), Snazguns(sucks but can fire twice), the Shock attack gun(which could not fire on the move again), and the Grotzooka.

Orks do not generally have Heavy weapons, and most of the ones that do have a mitigating rule, or really are not meant to move to begin with. The only bad unit is Kanz..

Lootas put out 2 shots each on average for 17pts, ohh and they die to a stiff breeze unless you spend 160pts to put them in a Wagon.

Shoota boyz put out 2 shots at 18in.

Mek Gunz are doing D6 shots so nothing to write home about

Basically Orkz don't put out more dakka then others anymore.

SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas put out 2 shots each on average for 17pts, ohh and they die to a stiff breeze unless you spend 160pts to put them in a Wagon.

Shoota boyz put out 2 shots at 18in.

Mek Gunz are doing D6 shots so nothing to write home about

Basically Orkz don't put out more dakka then others anymore.

How exactly has this changed? What other army puts out 30 S7 shots for 170 point? Durability may have changed but quantity of shooting is really no different.

Breng77 wrote:
How exactly has this changed? What other army puts out 30 S7 shots for 170 point? Durability may have changed but quantity of shooting is really no different.

Imperial Guard?
I mean like, it's 19 points for 2 Autocannon Shots

but it's basically a Lootas

it does seem off that while an ork player has to seriously consider if they want to move/run with their heavy/assault weapons, Space Marines are getting their Matrix on. I don't think this is really a problem of orks, so much as an unintentional side effect of attempting to streamline movement and weapons down to -1 bs.

If there's a real problem, it's that getting weapons that fire more than 3 shots is a pain. Kustom Shoota? Only on nobs. Want some vehicle sized dakka? hope you like random number of shots. Twin big shootas or dakka guns? all stuffed in the fast attack/flyers slots.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...That's kind of odd. I'd like to see Orks not hitting more shots than I do (Marines, Eldar) when they already get more dice than I do.

Though that may just be because I'm seeing an endless parade of Flash Gitz in battlewaggons (BS 4+, rerolling 1s, and rerolling ten more dice from the ammo runts) on the table, and they have a 17% chance to get a second shooting phase too.

They can't re-roll ones in a wagon cause it's an aura effect that doesn't work for embarked units.

Well, to be honest nothing has really changed with ork shooting other than big/mek gunz becoming weaker. Other stuff is just to fill in the space before charging in. You can still throw a number of dice but the quality is really bad for points. 30 shootaboyz are statistically dealing 1.67 wounds to marines in cover. Yep, you do throw 60 dice initially but it feels like a waste of time. However, some shooting is still required. You still need to focus something dangerous even if you're spending WAY more points on killing it than it costs.

So far, our more or less effective shooting choices are:
1. Tankbustas shooting at vehicles.
...
that's it.

But that's fine cause our effective shooting in 7-th was:
1. Mek gunz.
2. Warbikers.
...
that's it.

Breng77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas put out 2 shots each on average for 17pts, ohh and they die to a stiff breeze unless you spend 160pts to put them in a Wagon.

Shoota boyz put out 2 shots at 18in.

Mek Gunz are doing D6 shots so nothing to write home about

Basically Orkz don't put out more dakka then others anymore.

How exactly has this changed? What other army puts out 30 S7 shots for 170 point? Durability may have changed but quantity of shooting is really no different.

We used to have the most dakka, most of it would miss or destroy farms and groves of trees but at least we had THE MOST. Now almost every other army can put out more accurate dakka for similar or less points cost. And you will only get 30 S7 shots for 170pts 1/3rd of the time, which is why I always use 2 shots each so 20 shots. And 20 shots = 7 hits. As someone else just pointed out IG can take an Autocannon for 19pts. So 9 of them (171pts) put out 18 shots but at BS3 they get 9 hits. So for 1pt more they are on average hitting more then we are, they also have better armor as well and i believe they can be buffed with orders to make them even more deadly against specific targets.

Honestly when was the last time you fired shootas or Sluggas en mass at a Marine target and expected it to do anything beyond making your charge range slightly further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


So far, our more or less effective shooting choices are:
1. Tankbustas shooting at vehicles.
...
that's it.

But that's fine cause our effective shooting in 7-th was:
1. Mek gunz.
2. Warbikers.
...
that's it.

And Rokkitz on anything, IE Battlewagon taking 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for 30pts (Now thats closer to 60+pts)

Also Tankbustas were just as good last edition, OHH and Grotzookas if you ever got Kanz in range they were dedkilly!

Basically our shooting went to hell in a handbasket while most other armies got either hit less hard or buffed (depending if they relied on TL weapons)

IG/AM always had more shots than us. Most armies don't have more shots per point. We are horse assault, IG is horse shooting they should be better.

Breng77 wrote:
IG/AM always had more shots than us. Most armies don't have more shots per point. We are horse assault, IG is horse shooting they should be better.

I agree, but its not just that they are more shooty then Orkz, its the fact that they are also better armored and have better BS. SO they survive longer and shoot more accurately with roughly the same amount of dakka. that is my issue with them

Yet they put out nowhere near the close combat damage that Orks do.

^

SemperMortis gets it.

Orks used to roll buckets of dice for shooting - it was largely ineffective; but it was fun since they got to roll the most. - Nowadays however, you see Razorbacks/Taurox Prime outputting 12/20+ shots, at 3+/4+ to hit, with better weapon and vehicle statlines than Orks, at the same or lest cost. It doesn't help that Ork vehicles are straight up worse than the vehicles of other armies, and get nothing to show for it - T6 is the most common; our Battlewagon ("land raider") is T7 unless it loses open topped; in which case it goes up to T8. Orkanauts are T8, but go down in a pile of flames just as easy as any other big unit, and have nothing to show for it other than a melee statline that is solid (but if it loses 1/2 wounds or more, it becomes decidedly less effective at its one pro).

Yes, Orks pay a massive penalty for shooting, and are designed to win in melee - my problem is my opponents getting MORE shots at BETTER bs than my units; again, this isn't about expected or average damages, this is entirely about how many dice I get to roll (well, ok, a little about expected damages too).

Our rokkits are ~BS4 (55% hit vs 50% hit of BS4); sure they do flat 3 damage - this sounds nice, but with the lowliest transport having 10 wounds; it takes more shots than the equivalent of other armies (who happen to have even better shooting). A d6 damage > 3 flat damage any day of the week - 33% chance to do less damage, 17% chance to do equal damage, and 50% chance to do up to double damage. d6s shred vehicles, 3 flat doesn't. I'll take a 67% chance to do equal or more damage any day of the week.

Orks should be the ones with 12/20 shots and more on their guns; ~66-83% will be missing (5+/6+ to hit); but dammit that's ok because its fun. Non-orks should be envious of the amount of dakka an Ork army can put out, not the other way around.

Oh, and nevermind that other armies can do it at significantly further range, forcing the orks to spend a turn or two moving into the gunline, eating additional shots on the way in; if you're trying to straight gunline battle. Nevermind that they're hitting 4+/3+, and have better armor saves than you - so even if blows are exchanged, you'll always come out behind.

I get what you're saying, especially given the changes to Twin Linked. The other armies seem to be catching up to Orks in the amount of dice rolled per turn (per model), they just have a lot of catching up to do in terms of said units carrying guns.

Personally I think Orks still have their own identity, and I never really bothered with heavy weapons on them anyway. At least now you can potentially wound with anything to somewhat make up for that.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
IG/AM always had more shots than us. Most armies don't have more shots per point. We are horse assault, IG is horse shooting they should be better.

I agree, but its not just that they are more shooty then Orkz, its the fact that they are also better armored and have better BS. SO they survive longer and shoot more accurately with roughly the same amount of dakka. that is my issue with them

They always have though. IG/AM has always had 5+ armor, been as cheap or cheaper than orks, and shot more. This isn't new, they also have lower S, T and attacks. Orks are actually more durable than IG against S2-4 and S6-7 shooting. due to their higher toughness. So math doesn't really back up your (they survive longer) beyond that they are cheaper (conscripts survive longer because they are half the price, IG survive longer because they are 2/3rds the price), on a per model basis their save has nothing to do with their better survivability. Because they are cheaper even with the same 6+ save they would be slightly more durable than orks because they would have more models.

The problem ork shooting units have is the same problem space marines have in some areas, they are paying for things they don't really care about. An ork loota still has 2 attacks, S4, the Waagh rule and ere we go, they pay for these things even though as far as shooting goes none of those things matter.

fe40k wrote:

Spoiler:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas put out 2 shots each on average for 17pts, ohh and they die to a stiff breeze unless you spend 160pts to put them in a Wagon.

Shoota boyz put out 2 shots at 18in.

Mek Gunz are doing D6 shots so nothing to write home about

Basically Orkz don't put out more dakka then others anymore.

How exactly has this changed? What other army puts out 30 S7 shots for 170 point? Durability may have changed but quantity of shooting is really no different.

We used to have the most dakka, most of it would miss or destroy farms and groves of trees but at least we had THE MOST. Now almost every other army can put out more accurate dakka for similar or less points cost. And you will only get 30 S7 shots for 170pts 1/3rd of the time, which is why I always use 2 shots each so 20 shots. And 20 shots = 7 hits. As someone else just pointed out IG can take an Autocannon for 19pts. So 9 of them (171pts) put out 18 shots but at BS3 they get 9 hits. So for 1pt more they are on average hitting more then we are, they also have better armor as well and i believe they can be buffed with orders to make them even more deadly against specific targets.

Honestly when was the last time you fired shootas or Sluggas en mass at a Marine target and expected it to do anything beyond making your charge range slightly further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


So far, our more or less effective shooting choices are:
1. Tankbustas shooting at vehicles.
...
that's it.

But that's fine cause our effective shooting in 7-th was:
1. Mek gunz.
2. Warbikers.
...
that's it.

And Rokkitz on anything, IE Battlewagon taking 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for 30pts (Now thats closer to 60+pts)

Also Tankbustas were just as good last edition, OHH and Grotzookas if you ever got Kanz in range they were dedkilly!

Basically our shooting went to hell in a handbasket while most other armies got either hit less hard or buffed (depending if they relied on TL weapons)

^

SemperMortis gets it.

Orks used to roll buckets of dice for shooting - it was largely ineffective; but it was fun since they got to roll the most. - Nowadays however, you see Razorbacks/Taurox Prime outputting 12/20+ shots, at 3+/4+ to hit, with better weapon and vehicle statlines than Orks, at the same or lest cost. It doesn't help that Ork vehicles are straight up worse than the vehicles of other armies, and get nothing to show for it - T6 is the most common; our Battlewagon ("land raider") is T7 unless it loses open topped; in which case it goes up to T8. Orkanauts are T8, but go down in a pile of flames just as easy as any other big unit, and have nothing to show for it other than a melee statline that is solid (but if it loses 1/2 wounds or more, it becomes decidedly less effective at its one pro).

Yes, Orks pay a massive penalty for shooting, and are designed to win in melee - my problem is my opponents getting MORE shots at BETTER bs than my units; again, this isn't about expected or average damages, this is entirely about how many dice I get to roll (well, ok, a little about expected damages too).

Our rokkits are ~BS4 (55% hit vs 50% hit of BS4); sure they do flat 3 damage - this sounds nice, but with the lowliest transport having 10 wounds; it takes more shots than the equivalent of other armies (who happen to have even better shooting). A d6 damage > 3 flat damage any day of the week - 33% chance to do less damage, 17% chance to do equal damage, and 50% chance to do up to double damage. d6s shred vehicles, 3 flat doesn't. I'll take a 67% chance to do equal or more damage any day of the week.

Orks should be the ones with 12/20 shots and more on their guns; ~66-83% will be missing (5+/6+ to hit); but dammit that's ok because its fun. Non-orks should be envious of the amount of dakka an Ork army can put out, not the other way around.

Oh, and nevermind that other armies can do it at significantly further range, forcing the orks to spend a turn

or two moving into the gunline, eating additional shots on the way in; if you're trying to straight gunline battle. Nevermind that they're hitting 4+/3+, and have better armor saves than you - so even if blows are exchanged, you'll always come out behind.

Yes if you get into a pitched ranged battle against shooty armies you lose, you always have. Our vehicles never put out the kind of shooting other vehicles did. You still get more shots, per point than most opponents if you compare similar units (orks don't have a Razorback/Prime type tank). Your argument literally seems to be only about expected damage. "We don't get enough dice to shoot as well as other armies.", stop trying orks never had this against the true shooting armies. IF you want to throw buckets of dice, buy shoota boyz, and Jump them into range, chuck 60 S4 shots,

To put it bluntly, if you are getting into a straight gunline battle with orks, you are and should be losing to shooting armies. I used to think it was dumb in past editions when statistically Shoota boyz shot better than space marines because they had more than twice the number of shots. Ork shooting should be a support to their close combat, not the way they do most of their damage.

As for the flat damage thing, I much prefer it given the price tag. I can shoot a vehicle and have a pretty good idea that it will either die or not. With D6 damage there will frequently be times where you shoot and then roll a bunch of 1s for damage, and be left in a bad way.

Why did rokkits go from 5 points to 12? Did they really increase 150% in effectiveness? Hardly. You can't move a battlewagon full of flash gitz and not be -1 until a FAQ. I have a bigger problem with how cover is wayyyyyyy better for smaller elite armored infantry than it is for horde-y units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...That's kind of odd. I'd like to see Orks not hitting more shots than I do (Marines, Eldar) when they already get more dice than I do.

Though that may just be because I'm seeing an endless parade of Flash Gitz in battlewaggons (BS 4+, rerolling 1s, and rerolling ten more dice from the ammo runts) on the table, and they have a 17% chance to get a second shooting phase too.

there not rerolling 1s in a battlewagon unless you somehow found a loophole to allow special character AoE buffs to work while embarked. I'm not even sure raw allows the 6+ second chance to fire again while embarked. Flashgits are just kinda expensive and should have eavy armor 4+ but it's not a big deal since 4+ isnt that great this edition.

I kind of feel like whoever wrote our codex also wrote eldar/SM and forgot that orks hit on 5s and 6s more often then not and because of that he priced our weapons like he priced Marine weapons.

Case and Point. a Kustom Shoota is S4 Ranged 18 and Assault 4. It costs 4pts on a BS2 model.

A Storm Bolter is S4, Ranged 24 Rapid Fire 2. So its fires 2 shots at 24 and at 12 it fires 4. this is on a BS4 model.

OR

Big Shoota, S5, Ranged 36 Assault 3 for 6pts on a BS2 model
Heavy Bolter S5, Ranged 36 Heavy 3 -1AP for 10pts on a BS4 model.......

OR

Zzap Gunz S 2D6 Ranged 36, AP-3 3 Dmg for 18pts on a BS 2 or BS3 (Grot artillery) model.

Lascannon S9 Ranged 48 AP-3 D6 Dmg for 25pts on a BS 4 model...

It goes on and on, basically Orkz are paying Space Marine like prices for less effective gear/weapons

Or stop being cowardly gitz and get up close and krump em.

Orks have NEVER been an effective shooty army.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Or stop being cowardly gitz and get up close and krump em.

Orks have NEVER been an effective shooty army.

Nobody said they were, we want our ranged stuff to be WORTH TAKING. otherwise, why the hell is it in the codex?