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Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

Hello all. I got into Eldar right at the end of 7th and built up a semi competative list for local tournaments and some fun games. It wasnt all the cheese Eldar could bring but it fit our local meta quite nicely. Now that 8th has come it is simply not cutting it.

Here is what I have

15 Jetbikes
2x Farseer on Jetbikes
3x Fire Prism
3x Warwalkers
2x Wave Serpents
20x Dire Avengers
1x Hemlock
1x Falcon
6x Fire Dragons
5x Wraithblades
1x Vyper

In every game I have played in 8th (about 10) I find 1 unit to be good, a few to be middling, and a few to be worthless.

Good:
Wraithblades with Axes- they have over performed in every game if I stick them in a serpent. Chopped up the visarch and a squad of banshees today. Have taken down Meganobs, Terminators, Daemon Princes to name a few. Very happy with them.

Middling:
Bikes- They do OK. Im considering going back to scatter lasers because when I do get in 24" range for the cannons I usually get shot up or charged. Lasers woudl allow me to sit back and retain my mobility. I think 15 is to much but I can see a few squads still being good
Farseer- He does well, although hes just a buffer for my jetbikes
Waveserpents- Very hardy. Almost always last to turn 3 or 4. I have been running with Star Cannons and CTM so I can drive up on what I shoot. The only reason they are middling is that they are expensive
Hemlock- Great when I roll high on D Scythes. Bad when I roll low. Expensive
War Walkers- Seem like decent fire support batteries. Very confused on how to load them out.

Bad
Dire Avengers- EXPENSIVE
Fire Prisms- The prism cannon is lacking, and since it is heavy I miss with it a lot.
Falcon- Extremely expensive and suffers the same setbacks as the fire prisms
Fire Dragons- They are good.... when I get them there. My opponent knows they are in a transport so when I move up on him he just focuses the unit until dead.

So my question is.... Where do I go next? I cant stand guardians and am not a fan of most of the other aspect warriors. Is a wraith based army my next logical step? Not to say I wont pick up guardians or aspect warriors as Id like to remain semi competitive. I am able to purchase some of the FW tanks as well. I was thinking that a wraith army would work well. Wraithguard and blades in serpents, wraith knight for a hammer unit, and a wraithlord or wraithseer walking up behind. Thoughts?


Thanks for the help and sorry for the long post. Basically, how can I improve this army?

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah wraith host seems to be viable at the moment.

Don't overlook the humble guardian in this edition. Bodies on the table is more important then ever, and backed up by psychic they can do a lot of damage.

Hemlocks are great with conceal and can be a great conceal conduit for the rest of the army.

A lot of the options are viable in certain circumstances.
   
Made in us
Spawn of Chaos






I'm not sold on the Hemlock. 211 seems like a lot for 2D3 shots. I don't think it's enough shots given it's high point cost. I'm also not sure how you could use it to effectively maintain a conceal bubble when it has to move 20 inches every turn.

Guardians suck. 12 inch range weapon is worthless.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




2d3 autohits takes chunks off tanks. Conceal is mainly for itself making it -2 to hit. Plus can get other important mobile units in the bubble first turn when it is important. From there it can conceal itself if need be or throw out smites. It's a great character hunter as it is super mobile so can easily get a character as closest unit.

It will either draw a whole lot of the armies firepower to take down or will be a constant thorn in their side and take chunks off their tanks.

My experience with 8th ed so far is that both armies wipe the majority of each other out in 2 turns and then you scramble with what's left to close out the game. The hemlock scrambles well.
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






 thekerrick wrote:

Here is what I have

15 Jetbikes
2x Farseer on Jetbikes
3x Fire Prism
3x Warwalkers
2x Wave Serpents
20x Dire Avengers
1x Hemlock
1x Falcon
6x Fire Dragons
5x Wraithblades
1x Vyper


Seems like a reasonable force. Nothing is inherently wrong with it. I can give suggestions for how to improve it, however.

Middling:
Bikes- They do OK. Im considering going back to scatter lasers because when I do get in 24" range for the cannons I usually get shot up or charged. Lasers woudl allow me to sit back and retain my mobility. I think 15 is to much but I can see a few squads still being good


You have too many bikes. The most I would ever consider fielding is a squad of six. Mass bikes were utterly dominant last edition, but they don't do that anymore, and they cost too much to justify investing in huge numbers of them.

Farseer- He does well, although hes just a buffer for my jetbikes


Farseer is never a bad choice, but look into Warlocks, too. What they can provide your army is invaluable.

Hemlock- Great when I roll high on D Scythes. Bad when I roll low. Expensive


Hemlock is the best Eldar flyer. Always worth its points, and just as valuable as a psyker as in the rest of what it brings to the table.

War Walkers- Seem like decent fire support batteries. Very confused on how to load them out.


Depends what you need. Do you find yourself in need of more anti-tank fire? Go for bright lances. Having trouble with bikers and heavy infantry? Starcannons. Against hordes? Scatter lasers. Want something that can do anti-tank and anti-horde duty (but not as well)? Missile launcher.


Fire Prisms- The prism cannon is lacking, and since it is heavy I miss with it a lot.
Falcon- Extremely expensive and suffers the same setbacks as the fire prisms


The Fire Prism and the Falcon both suffer from the fact that the Wave Serpent is better than them for less points. It's particularly galling comparing it to the Falcon; the Wave Serpent is cheaper, tankier, can put out comparable damage, and is a better transport.

Are you upgrading your vehicles with Crystal Targeting Matrixes? Because you should be. 5 point upgrade to negate the penalty for shooting after moving if you shoot at the nearest enemy unit.

Fire Dragons- They are good.... when I get them there. My opponent knows they are in a transport so when I move up on him he just focuses the unit until dead.


This seems like less of a Fire Dragon problem and more of a Falcon problem.

So my question is.... Where do I go next? I cant stand guardians and am not a fan of most of the other aspect warriors. Is a wraith based army my next logical step? Not to say I wont pick up guardians or aspect warriors as Id like to remain semi competitive. I am able to purchase some of the FW tanks as well. I was thinking that a wraith army would work well. Wraithguard and blades in serpents, wraith knight for a hammer unit, and a wraithlord or wraithseer walking up behind. Thoughts?


A couple of ways you could approach it. My first recommendation: drop the Falcon and put two five man squads of Fire Dragons in a wave serpent. Or possibly divide them between two wave serpents. Next, drop the fire prisms. There are better things you can take. My personal favorite alternative is Hornets, but you may not have access to those. Dark Reapers are excellent this edition. Anything can be made to work if you play it well, though.

If you want to be more of a Jetbike type force, consider adding a warlock skyrunner conclave and some Shining Spears, both of which are useful this edition. If you'd rather stick with vehicles, you could replace your fire prisms and falcon with as many Crimson Hunters as will fit into their point cost and have excellent anti-tank capabilities.

Another option: take a step back. Instead of thinking about which units are good and which units are not, think about how best to use the units you have on the board. Can you look back on your game and identify points at which you screwed up? Can your opponent? Are you making good use of the terrain? Is there Line of Sight blocking terrain on the table? If not, you should add some, as 40k without LoS blocking terrain is not 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 06:57:00


Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað.  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Night spinners are also an option this edition. They are slighy cheaper than fire prisms and put out decent numbers. Their 2d6 means they have a high variance when it comes to damage output but are usually alive long enough to do some damage.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

Thanks for the replys! Lots of good info.

I agree, guardians suck. Im paying for a unit that will never shoot except its heavy weapons platform. Never have been a fan.

I will definitely be dropping some jetbikes, fire prisms, and my falcon.

Will be picking up some more wraith units, dark reapers, and more wave serpents it looks like but what do I fill the serpents with? If guardians and dire avengers suck do I just skip troop options entirely and go for the elite detachment?

I do have access to hornets and warphunters if those are worthwhile.

This is not a sky is falling type post. My group is semi competitive (if that makes any sense) so I built my list to that last edition. Id just like to get it there again if possible. We use lots of terrain in our games and I am learning a new system so I understand it may not go well most games until I get the hang of it again.

Will be facing orks again today. Will see how it goes!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 13:27:27


Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






Guardians may suck, but they are also cheap, can hold objectives, and give easy access to heavy weapons. Dire Avengers are expensive, but they have their uses.

In any case, I recommend not completely changing your force unless you are already very familiar with how to play Eldar. Play errors are easy to make when you are out of your element. Unless you are confident you know what you are doing, try just making one or two changes to the list instead of completely transforming it. See how those changes alter the list and how it plays.

If you are a veteran player, you can ignore the following:

A big part of playing Eldar is making sure you have the right unit in the right place at the right time shooting at the right target. This wasn't something you had to deal with unless you chose to in 7th, when mass scatterbikes and Wraithknights could kill anything, but now it's pretty well mandatory. A well positioned squad of Dark Reapers is a force of nature, able to kill anything with near-impunity. A poorly positioned squad of Dire Avengers is worthless. A warlock or a Hemlock Wraithfighter in the right spot makes the enemy -1 to hit your entire front line with shooting attacks; a Hemlock in the right spot on the offensive can snipe enemy characters right out from behind the front line. Choice in target priority is often the difference between victory and defeat. Maneuver is a big deal. Use that LoS blocking terrain to screen your approach. Force your opponent to make suboptimal choices in order to be able to target the units of yours that are most dangerous to him, and so on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/27 14:47:45


Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Guardians are not particularly impressive but they are cheap Troops if you are looking to unlock command points. A squad of 10 is only 80 points and they can sit in a Wave Serpent until needed.

I cannot work out why Dire Avengers have jumped to 17 points, that is almost as much as a Sternguard marine with worse stats and gun. I honestly think this is a typo and they should be 12 points but unless/until they get fixed. I won't be running them.

Rangers are a pretty good troop choice. The ability to snipe Characters is pretty good when facing various buffing characters who now exist. And mortal wounds are always nice.

Farseers on bikes are good, albeit a bit pricey. As always, their value depends on what units they are buffing. Doom remains one of our best powers, especially when you consider how many of our weapons get special effects on a 6 to-wound.

Wave Serpents are great and the cost can be minimised. I favour the triple shuricannon version as it is cheap(ish) at 143 points and since Shuricannons are Assault weapons, it does not suffer the -1BS for moving. The points saved on CTM can be put into Spirit Stones for extra survivability or used elsewhere.

Aspect Warriors generally are looking rather poor in 8th edition.
Avengers are overpriced.
Banshees lack punch although at least now they have a chance to get into asssault.
Scorpions seem pricey and lack their old volume of attacks.
Fire Dragons are still good. Put them in a Wave Serpent and away you go. Or run Ynnari so you can put them in Raiders/Venoms for open-topped roasting.
Swooping Hawks are fragile although they might have some use for horde control.
Dark Reapers are actually very good but they are squishy and their firepower will make them a priority target. Use range and cover to protect them as much as possible.
Warp Spiders suffer from the loss of move-shoot-move. They are good on the flanks and for picking on isolated units but watch out for them getting caught now.
Shining Spears are actually pretty good. 2 Wounds and they can fire both their weapons before charging. Shame the models are so old.

War Walkers are pretty good. Make use of cover and Batttlefocus where possible and they can put out quite a volume of fire.

Falcon is pricey but CTM can make it tasty. I like it with a Starcannon, it makes quite a good target for Guide and it can draw fire away from the Serpents and their cargo.

I have seen the numbers run and the Nightspinner comes out ahead of the Fire Prism against pretty much anything smaller than a Land Raider. The fact that is gets 2D6 shots and 2 wounds per hit makes it surprisingly good at piling up wounds. Plus it does not need LOS so you can hide it behind terrain and just keep pumping out the shots.

Wraithguard of all flavours are great and using a Vanguard Detachment to run a Wraith Host will be pretty strong in 8th edition I think. You have already discovered the joys of Wraithblades. Shooty Wraithguard with their "Implacable" rule are great as well. Both Wraithcannons and D-scythes are great but on balance I think the extra 5 points per model for D-Scythes are usually worth it. The squad is almost as effective as Wraithcannons against large targets and far better vs infantry. They also get auto-hitting overwatch which is awesome. Then in your next turn, they can just walk out of combat (thanks to Implacable) and flame again. Their short range is no much of a hindrance as you can just advance with them since their auto-hitting ignores the usual -1BS penalty.

Wraithlords are very good in 8th edition and compare well with Marine Dreadnoughts. Always take 2 heavy weapons and a glaive. I prefer flamers for horde control but that is a personal preference.

Wraithknights have sadly been hit by the mother of all nerf-bats. While they were definitely too strong in 7th, they have overdone and they are now worse than Imperial Knights while costing more. If you don't already have one, don't rush out to buy one unless they recost them.

Overall I think your idea of going for a Wraith-based army is a good one. Take Wave Serpents to move them around. Remember that Grav tanks are flyers so can quite happily drift out of combat and still shoot if they need to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 15:11:15


I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

I do have a wraithknight on the way, but he was more for rule of cool but I will probably still use him.

I havent played with this army a ton as I got it right to the tail end of 7th. I need some more games under my belt before I make any final decisions.

Thanks for all the help! Lots of good info whether I decide to go more aspect heavy or wraith heavy.

Still bummed fire prisms arnt great. They are my favorite tank.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Don't discount wraithknights.
The more I play of 8th ed the more I feel eldar tax is just because our psychic is so good.
Sure a wraithknight does not stack up well to an imperial knight. But a wraithknight with fortune, guide, shooting at a doomed target, charging a drained enemy, performing a bonus action from word of Phoenix or any combination of the above is a scary prospect indeed.
That has been my overall impression of most of the eldar units so far. Weak in a vacuum until the eldar synergy is added into the mix.
Guardians are weak and worthless, until you have 40 of them shooting 80 shots at a doomed imperial knight and suddenly all those 6s to wound with rerolls are ap -3.
Warp spiders flickerjump is handy until you start concealing them as well and suddenly they are getting hit on 5s.
Howling banshees -1 to hit in combat helps a little until their opponent is drained too and suddenly they can hold up a unit in combat pretty well.
Plus add in soulburst and stuff is still able to hit and run as needed, just gotta make sure you kill your opposing unit to do it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

I am liking my Warlocks all of a sudden. Given the chage to cover rules, Conceal/Reveal is really good for stripping that +1 armour save. Marines dug into cover are a right pain to shift with basic weapons but a humble Warlock and suddenly you can double the rate at which you inflict wounds.

I can also attest that Wraithguard with D-Scythes are scary and brutal. I ran a squad of 5 and over the course of 2 games their kills racked up to 2 tactical squads, 2 death companies and a unit of Van Vets. I only lost one model from that squad thanks of a Gravis Captain charging from outside LOS (watch out for that trick by the way).

The squad lives or dies by the single D3 that determines its firepower so this is a key dice for Command Point rerolls.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

Definately going to pick up some more wraithguard.

Had a game vs Green Tide today and did handily beat him.

A few take aways.

Eldar are not point and shoot jetbikes at things any more.

The Hemlock was my all star MVP. He wrecked everything he touched. Smite coupled with the two auto hitting D Scythes is nasty.

I trusted in my wave serpents and rushed them forward with their cargo of Wraithblades and Fire Dragons. I need to trust in the wave serpents. They both lasted the game with 3-5 wounds left. Was able to dump my cargo and melta a battle wagon, and a gorkanaut. Wraithguard took out a unit of nob bikers and then tied up a 30 boy squad for a while before going down.

I used my jetbikes as more of a helper unit. So if something couldnt finish the job, usually a push from S6 shuricannons can push it over the edge. He did bring 120 boys though and between my bikes and Dire avengers I mopped most of them up.

He did roll poorly on his charges though, the gorkanaut is SCARY when it gets to you. He smashed the wraithguard up good.

Nice to see a win though, I think I needed to rethink my targets though, rather than point jetbikes at them and win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 00:29:52


Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

Im bad at quoting but why does a wraithknight not stack up to an imperial knight anymore.?

Also i wanted to also say if its not been seen elsewhere that wraithblades are really good for their points actually terminator equivilants now.

Matched play really debuffs the warlocks though because conceal is great but only one warlock can attempt to cast it so only his bubble of units are buffed.

And my question is how do wave serpents compare to wraithlords. Ive been impressed with my lords in a couple games and not sure if replacing one of two of them with serpents would really benifit my army.

PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Basically head to head the wraithknight and imperial knight have the same stat line, better weapons and an inbuilt 5+ inv save for cheaper than a wraithknight.
It seems like they have overcosted the wraithknight to account for the fact that it benefits from eldar psychic.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Wyldcarde wrote:
It seems like they have overcosted the wraithknight to account for the fact that it benefits from eldar psychic.

Which makes absolutely no sense considering you already PAY FOR THE PSYKER. No, the reason WKs are so expensive is payback for being too cheap last edition. This is a sick idea of "balance".

I'm also a bit miffed about the bikes. Overall I really like the changes to their rules, but they really did not need to be so expensive too. I have to play a minimum of 12 bikes (Saim-Hann player since 4th ed) and they just DIE.

Having said that, I have decided to basically have 2 Eldar armies. 1 for casual play (meaning not against Marines because they just erase units from the table in my experience) and 1 army for competitive play.
My casual lists have the units I WANT to play like Windriders and WKs. My competitive list is Ynnari WG in Serpents with Hemlocks

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 13:03:53


   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Wraithguard with D-scythes are good. They hit automatically and when you roll high on D3, they cause a lot of damage. I battled GK and they wiped out a 10 men GKSS in one volley. The enemy will also think twice to charge them as the D-scythes will hurt.
I always run at least one Farseer on a jetbike as warlord. She's a decent psyker and has the mobility to get out of harm's way.
But I'm more into Ynnari atm.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer






I have a Falcon and Fire Prism (old model) that are beautiful displays. On the tabletop, currently, the Serpent is tankier, shootier, transportier and, cheaper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/29 03:25:44


Eldar (Craftworld Sahal-Deran) 2500pts. 2000pts Fully Painted.

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