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Ok. So I've got a regular player in my shop who is arguing the case that exactly 1" away from an enemy model is some kind of magic region. You can move to this point in the movement phase and fire your pistols at the enemy in the Shooting phase.

I think it's Grade A b******* but he claims to have been in contact with the designers (well someone at Warhammer TV) supporting this claim.

Thoughts

Cheers

You aren't allowed to shoot if you are 1" or closer to the enemy, unless you have a pistol. That's clearly stated in the rules.
However, if you are more than 1", ie, 1.001" away, then theoretically you are permitted to do that. However, as that's impossible to prove unless you are using absurdly accurate equipment, its best not to bother with that sort of thing.

Within is clearly anywhere between 0-1". It does not mean 1" exactly. If that were the case, the wording would be "closer than 1 inch"

Kind of hard to do in reality...

Get a large enough microscope and he will be either MORE or LESS than 1" away.

BS

I have talked to Jess Goodwin and he said that models painted by someone named Fredrik automatically hits :-)

If it's not in a FAQ it's worth nothing.

/ Fredrik

Yeah, I think your buddy is just misreading or misunderstanding the rules.

I'm not sure why your opponent is making such an effort to make sure he is exactly 1" away.

Why doesn't he just move to within approx. 1.5-2" and fire his pistols? Save the hassle of such accurate measurment?

I don't understand what he thinks he is gaining?

During the movement phase he can move anywhere from 1 inch to 12 inches away from your unit and shoot them with pistols during the shooting phase.
If you unit was locked in melee combat with his unit from a previous turn, even though he is within 1 inch of an enemy model he can still shoot his pistols.

What he can't do is say he moves to exactly 1 inch away from your unit and say he can shoot his pistols in the shooting phase then since he 1 inch away say you are therefore already inc combat and would unable to perform overwatch, he would still need to charge that 1 inch.

Is it possible he is under the impression he can't shoot his pistols from farther away? They have ranges!

Or is he trying to shoot a unit locked in combat--I don't think that can happen except with the unit that is currently in combat.

I guess I don't see the point.

I too am confused on what he is trying to do. That being said too many people are getting hung up on the word "within" within 1" includes 1", proof:

Area of a Circle is the amount of space occupied by the circle.
Area is pi*r^2, within 1" would be an extension of a round base by 1", if said base was 1", then it gets real easy, the area within the circle aka the area is 3.14 sq in centered upon the middle of the base.

Closer than, further than are excluding the 1" proper. Within however includes the actual 1"...

During the movement phase one cannot move within 1" of an enemy model, which means it must end its move more than 1" from the model.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/within

Sense 2 (preposition).

Other dictionary sites agree; "Within x includes being at exactly x. Mathematically speaking, 'within 1"' means the interval [0,1]. If it were 'less than 1"', that would be [0,1) where the endpoint isn't included in the range.

When did math get here? GO AWAY MATH

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Ok. So I've got a regular player in my shop who is arguing the case that exactly 1" away from an enemy model is some kind of magic region. You can move to this point in the movement phase and fire your pistols at the enemy in the Shooting phase.

I think it's Grade A b******* but he claims to have been in contact with the designers (well someone at Warhammer TV) supporting this claim.

Thoughts

Cheers

You do realise you can shoot your pistols in the shooting phase regardless, right? They usually have a 12" or 6" range.

Wait you guys aren't playing with precision instruments that measure to the millionth of an inch?

what a bunch of plebs



if the guy claims to have contacts then it wont be hard for him to make a direct line to them and ask them to FAQ it real quick right?

 Desubot wrote:
Wait you guys aren't playing with precision instruments that measure to the millionth of an inch?

what a bunch of plebs



if the guy claims to have contacts then it wont be hard for him to make a direct line to them and ask them to FAQ it real quick right?

Oh, also ask if we can have necron vehicles that would not give a military engineer a hernia over how much of a blatant deathtrap they are.
If he would like, I can supply an angry rant critique of post-5th ed necron vehicles.
Also, plastic sisters.

Can people drop the irrelevant arguments about the precision of the measurement. In general when it comes to wargaming we accept fairly loose measurements as long as everyone understands the intention of the placement.

So the argument is that exactly 1" allows you to what exactly?
Shoot Pistols? That's always legal within the Pistol's range

Fight in Melee?
Well Shooting says "Cannot Shoot within 1" "
Fighting says "Must fight within 1" "
Even if you were questioning whether 'within 1" ' was 0.99 or 1.0 or 1.0001, it wouldn't matter since the 2 use the exact same phrasing.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Ok. So I've got a regular player in my shop who is arguing the case that exactly 1" away from an enemy model is some kind of magic region. You can move to this point in the movement phase and fire your pistols at the enemy in the Shooting phase.

I think it's Grade A b******* but he claims to have been in contact with the designers (well someone at Warhammer TV) supporting this claim.

Thoughts

Cheers

None of the rest of this thread matters. You cannot move within 1" of an enemy model to begin with outside of charge, pile in, and consolidate. So if he is moving in regular movement to exactly 1" claiming it is not within for movement restrictions then he is also not within 1" for shooting.

Whats really absurd is when you charge and consolidation. To get a successful charge off you only need to be within 1 inch. BUT you can consolidate as long as you end up "closer" to the enemy than you started - even if you could have made base with the charge! Oh when I charged I stopped 1 inch away - then I moved 3 inches around back of you and I end .95 inches away from you. GTFO GW. Why do you make stupid rules like this?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whats really absurd is when you charge and consolidation. To get a successful charge off you only need to be within 1 inch. BUT you can consolidate as long as you end up "closer" to the enemy than you started - even if you could have made base with the charge! Oh when I charged I stopped 1 inch away - then I moved 3 inches around back of you and I end .95 inches away from you. GTFO GW. Why do you make stupid rules like this?

It's almost like it's to compensate for the random charge values and characters needing to roll their own charge distances.

This is some of the most pathetic complaints I have ever read.

Ending the charge just within 1" and then circling around to be closer in consolidation or pile-in allows your model to clear the way for other pile-ins. It is logical and make tactical sense.

Also 25mm bases and 32mm bases when pressing in between the rounds can allow for base-to-base and then the outer petals within 1"; then every model within 1" of those models can also attack.

But I think these discussions should go to another area of the forums.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
This is some of the most pathetic complaints I have ever read.

Ending the charge just within 1" and then circling around to be closer in consolidation or pile-in allows your model to clear the way for other pile-ins. It is logical and make tactical sense.

Also 25mm bases and 32mm bases when pressing in between the rounds can allow for base-to-base and then the outer petals within 1"; then every model within 1" of those models can also attack.

But I think these discussions should go to another area of the forums.

I think it fall squarely under the within 1" topic. The complaint is about the infinite number of movements you could actually make to get closer to an enemy unit between 1" and 0 ". You must not have heard too many complaints if you think this is pathetic. Some people don't even grasp the concept of infinite possible movements between 1" and 0" - this game is supposed to be simplified.

Thanks for the response guys.

The upstanding citizen is using different definitions of 'within' at various times:-
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Thanks for the response guys.

The upstanding citizen is using different definitions of 'within' at various times:-
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

I hate this kind of crap.

He's using conflicting interpretations of the word "within" so it suits his purpose.

If the first step is allowed - the movement to exactly 1" - then the fight phase wouldn't allow him to make attacks, because the definition of within doesn't magically change.

Why are people so horrible. Within an inch always means up to and including exactly 1".

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

If I am correct you cannot fire into a melee you are not a part of. At this point why wouldn't he just walk into the combat and then be able to fire pistols and make attacks?

I can see if he is trying to fire a heavy or other gun and trying to game the rules which might be "soft" cheating. Otherwise I really don't believe exactly 1in is a magic zone where you can do whatever you wish.

 Smushed wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

If I am correct you cannot fire into a melee you are not a part of. At this point why wouldn't he just walk into the combat and then be able to fire pistols and make attacks?

I can see if he is trying to fire a heavy or other gun and trying to game the rules which might be "soft" cheating. Otherwise I really don't believe exactly 1in is a magic zone where you can do whatever you wish.

He's trying to fire his pistols into a melee without actually joining the melee by charging, exploiting his own misunderstanding of the word within.

take a piece of paper. draw a box.place a model utside the box. "this model is outside the box. I.E. not in combat, cannot fire pistols into the combat, cannot make attacks in the fight phase."

Place the model inside the box.

"This model is within the box. He cannot get here in the movement phase. He can fire a pistol at the nearest enemy unit in the shooting phase. He can make attacks during the fight phase."

 Lance845 wrote:
take a piece of paper. draw a box.place a model utside the box. "this model is outside the box. I.E. not in combat, cannot fire pistols into the combat, cannot make attacks in the fight phase."

Place the model inside the box.

"This model is within the box. He cannot get here in the movement phase. He can fire a pistol at the nearest enemy unit in the shooting phase. He can make attacks during the fight phase."

Use one of the opponent's models and, if he still insists he can position to do both despite the demonstration, smash a heavy book down on the model?

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Thanks for the response guys.

The upstanding citizen is using different definitions of 'within' at various times:-
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

You can either use the same "definitions" that he is using

or

You expand his definitions to things like "taking a wound" and "last wound", do one wound to a multi-wound model, insist he take it off, since it lost the last wound. And explain it is the same as being within 1" and not within 1"...

or

Teach him English, use the examples above with the math definitions....

or

Refuse to play him.

or

Get him into a tourney, any TO will put an end to that real quick.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Thanks for the response guys.

The upstanding citizen is using different definitions of 'within' at various times:-
Movement phase - move to 1" distance of an existing melee ("hey, I'm dead on 1", not within so it's aloud. Hehe")
Shooting phase - "hey - looks like I can fire my pistol at you - 1" distance!"
Fight Phase - "and I make my attacks!..."

Basically being in and out of range at the same time...

technically - there is no exact 1 inch measurement - such a measurement is impossible. Technically you can always get a little closer to 1 inch - at least until we understand the quantum mechanics of the universe.

 Xenomancers wrote:

technically - there is no exact 1 inch measurement - such a measurement is impossible. Technically you can always get a little closer to 1 inch - at least until we understand the quantum mechanics of the universe.

You can't be closer to a planck length on either side of 1".

Technically "Exactly 1"" is a theoretical value due to measures of distance being infinitely divisible.

Realistically? Who gives a gak? You can shoot pistols anyway and aren't in combat at exactly 1" so who cares?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/within

Sense 2 (preposition).

Other dictionary sites agree; "Within x includes being at exactly x. Mathematically speaking, 'within 1"' means the interval [0,1]. If it were 'less than 1"', that would be [0,1) where the endpoint isn't included in the range.

Both of those are irrelevent GW decides what they mean. Not a dictionary. So if GW treats "within 1 inch" differently then those dont matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Technically "Exactly 1"" is a theoretical value due to measures of distance being infinitely divisible.

Realistically? Who gives a gak? You can shoot pistols anyway and aren't in combat at exactly 1" so who cares?

I think the OP friend is shooting into close combat with postols from outside CC which you cant do.