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I haven't played 8th edition yet, but I've watched a ton of battle reports on Youtube and one thing really bothers me. Okay, so vehicles have armor saves like everybody else, but it seems that with the return of armor save modifiers, its too easy to destroy them. In one, a bunch of regular Ork boyz destroyed a space marine dreadnought all by themselves. my proposal is simple. In 2nd edition, terminators rolled their saves on 2D6. This way, even a lascannon's -9 save penalty didn't eliminate their save. Vehicles should have a 2D6 save also. It wouldn't eliminate the chance of troops destroying them, but if their save is 2+ or 3+, you would need a weapon with the appropriate save modifier to have a chance of making them fail a save. an Ork hitting a vehicle with a sharpened piece of scrap metal shouldn't get through vehicle armor!

There are many ways vehicle damage can be improved, i like a 2D6 save. My idea : Any weapon without AP would only be able to wound it at 6+. Orcs with S4 in CC, against a T7 Vehicle would only wound at 6+. If the weapon has AP, wounding is determined as usual. S4 AP-1 against T7 would wound on 5+. If the Toughness exceeds twice the Strength, or Damage, the vehicle cant be wounded by it. S3 or D3 against T7, no wounds possible.

p5freak wrote:
There are many ways vehicle damage can be improved, i like a 2D6 save. My idea : Any weapon without AP would only be able to wound it at 6+. Orcs with S4 in CC, against a T7 Vehicle would only wound at 6+. If the weapon has AP, wounding is determined as usual. S4 AP-1 against T7 would wound on 5+. If the Toughness exceeds twice the Strength, or Damage, the vehicle cant be wounded by it. S3 or D3 against T7, no wounds possible.

What if a weapon has good Strength but no AP? Like Multi-lasers iirc, seems like they should still hurt lighter vehicles IMO.

A 2D6 save could work, but it could make some vehicles very resistant; melta weapons for example are only AP -4 right now, which would reduce a 3+ save to 7+ on 2D6, a roughly 50/50 chance of ignoring a melta weapon completely.

Another alternative; what if the save were re-rollable against attacks that only do 1 Damage? This way attacks with good AP but only 1 Damage are still threatening, but most spam weaponry is reduced by a fair amount.

 Haravikk wrote:

p5freak wrote:
There are many ways vehicle damage can be improved, i like a 2D6 save. My idea : Any weapon without AP would only be able to wound it at 6+. Orcs with S4 in CC, against a T7 Vehicle would only wound at 6+. If the weapon has AP, wounding is determined as usual. S4 AP-1 against T7 would wound on 5+. If the Toughness exceeds twice the Strength, or Damage, the vehicle cant be wounded by it. S3 or D3 against T7, no wounds possible.

What if a weapon has good Strength but no AP? Like Multi-lasers iirc, seems like they should still hurt lighter vehicles IMO.

A 2D6 save could work, but it could make some vehicles very resistant; melta weapons for example are only AP -4 right now, which would reduce a 3+ save to 7+ on 2D6, a roughly 50/50 chance of ignoring a melta weapon completely.

Another alternative; what if the save were re-rollable against attacks that only do 1 Damage? This way attacks with good AP but only 1 Damage are still threatening, but most spam weaponry is reduced by a fair amount.

I think that if the 2D6 armor save were instituted, some weapons would also need to have their armor save penalty increased to make the whole mechanic balanced. That would be the simplest way to fix everything.

I think it's ridiculous to try to propose fixes to a game you have not played yet.

Vehicles are much moe durable now then they were in 7th and because you haven't actually played yet you have no idea what kind of broader implications your proposed rules have on the game as a whole.

play a few games first. then talk.

Or could add a bespoke rule to certain vehicles:

Heavy Armor: If this weapon is hit by a 1 Damage weapon, it may reroll 1's on Armor saves

Vehicles are 10 times tougher now than in 7th edition, where any decent shooting could destroy 5 light vehicles or a land raider in a single turn.

D weapons are gone.

You have to consider that hordes are a thing now, so if an army is completely focussed on anti tank if it comes face to face with an horde army is not going anywhere.

A bunch of orks should be able to wrech a dread, it seems 100% ok. And you need a lot of boyz to destroy a dread. If 5-10 orks could be able to kill a land raider then it would be a problem.

IMHO SM vehicles, including dreads, are even too resilient. Rhinos for examples should be T6 and 4+ save like dark eldar ravagers, they were both AV11 in 7th edition. A transport with T7, 10W and 3+ save is extremely tough.

 Stormonu wrote:
Or could add a bespoke rule to certain vehicles:

Heavy Armor: If this weapon is hit by a 1 Damage weapon, it may reroll 1's on Armor saves

Some of the Krieg vehicles have a bonus to armour save against S4- weapons, and All Is Dust (+1 save v. damage 1 weapons) exists on Thousand Sons. It's a reasonable and straightforward mechanic.

Where are these paper vehicles people speak of? I certainly haven't encountered any.

Vehicles are probably the strongest/most survivable they've been in...almost ever.

Lance845 wrote:
Vehicles are much moe durable now then they were in 7th...

Blackie wrote:Vehicles are 10 times tougher now than in 7th edition...

Wrong, very wrong. In 7th ed. Orc boyz couldnt scratch the paint of a Dread with their basic melee weapons, in 8th they can kill it in one turn.

p5freak wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Vehicles are much moe durable now then they were in 7th...

Blackie wrote:Vehicles are 10 times tougher now than in 7th edition...

Wrong, very wrong. In 7th ed. Orc boyz couldnt scratch the paint of a Dread with their basic melee weapons, in 8th they can kill it in one turn.

In 7th a single lucky hit with an ap2 weapon could kill a dread or even a land raider. An ork army with 8 trukks always ended up with only 3 vehicles remaining after FIRST turn. Battlewagons were always killed in the first turn. Dreads are way more resilient now, in 7th they could even get immobilized just walking!!! Now a battlewagon has huge chances to survive first turn and in my games even against shooty armies I lost two trukks at most in single turn of shooting but typically one or even none.

One of the differences between 7th and 8th is that hordes have been buffed but only a few armies play them and they're not even mandatory (I don't play hordes of boyz with orks for examples).

In a specific situation like the boyz assault some vehicles could be worse but overall they're tougher. 3 meganobz in 7th would have melt a dread quite easily, now they barely scratch it. And the single pk in the boyz unit could cause enough damage to wreck the dread alone in that edition.

Now to kill a dread you need a lot of orks, not only a few boyz.

 Blackie wrote:


In 7th a single lucky hit with an ap2 weapon could kill a dread or even a land raider.

I know, and that sucked. But that is not the point here. The point is causing wounds with non-AP weapons against armored vehicles. Thats what needs to be fixed.

 Blackie wrote:

An ork army with 8 trukks always ended up with only 3 vehicles remaining after FIRST turn. Battlewagons were always killed in the first turn.

Sounds about right to me. A Dread is fine Craftsmanship, with Blessings from the Machine Spirit, whereas an Orc Vehicle is slammed together from Junk.

 Blackie wrote:

Dreads are way more resilient now, in 7th they could even get immobilized just walking!!!

Sounds right to me, too. A vehicle should be able to get immobilized, or lose its weapons in battle. Another point that needs fixing, but not as critical as the non AP wounding armored units.

 Blackie wrote:

Now to kill a dread you need a lot of orks, not only a few boyz.

With a bit of luck when dice rolling, 20 are enough.

I disagree, ork boyz are 1W dudes with 5'' movement and 6+ save. It's not that easy to charge with 20 boyz into a dread and kill it. Before turn 3 it's even impossible.

Vehicles and walkers are too tough in this edition, and the possibility of being hurt by everything mitigate this.

If dreads were T7 with 5 wounds I may agree with you, but with the way this edition is designed it's a good thing that low S hits can hurt high T values.

Why only vehicles should get an immobilized or a weapon destroyed result? Also monstrous creatures could suffer damage when walking through terrain and even infantries can have their weapons damaged in a real battle.

Boyz arms are twice SM ones and yet they have the same S, this doesn't sound right to me, SM should be S3 or orks S5. Orks look so fit that can damage a light vehicle (like dreads) with a single punch actually

The single rule/example is not important, what really matters is the overall result. And it seems a good result. Vehicles are finally resilient and hordes are finally playable.

 Blackie wrote:
I disagree, ork boyz are 1W dudes with 5'' movement and 6+ save. It's not that easy to charge with 20 boyz into a dread and kill it. Before turn 3 it's even impossible.

20 Orc Boyz can kill a Dread in the first round. They have 80 Attacks, hit 53,333 times, do 17,778 unsaved Wounds, Dread loses 5,926 wounds. It has 8. With some Luck its possible. If it doesnt go down the first turn, it goes down the second turn.

 Blackie wrote:

Why only vehicles should get an immobilized or a weapon destroyed result? Also monstrous creatures could suffer damage when walking through terrain and even infantries can have their weapons damaged in a real battle.

Agreed.

 Blackie wrote:

Boyz arms are twice SM ones and yet they have the same S, this doesn't sound right to me, SM should be S3 or orks S5. Orks look so fit that can damage a light vehicle (like dreads) with a single punch actually

SM have Power Armor, which boosts their Strength.

I think vehicles are fine.
I don't see the issue with orks being able to melee a dread to death.

Orcs can also melee a Titan to Death. You dont see any Issue with that, either ?

p5freak wrote:
Orcs can also melee a Titan to Death. You dont see any Issue with that, either ?

No. They can't.

Saw this first hand when I watched some Knights table an ork horde, while only suffering a few wounds. A guy threw 140 attacks at a Knight, and caused 2 wounds.

Sure, in this edition, everything can hurt something. That's the same premise behind the lottery though. Everyone has a chance to win. Your chances is just so damn small though, it doesn't really matter.

Vehicles aren't tissue paper. The 2D6 save system was a dumpster fire. This is a non-issue.

The 2D6 system was not a dumpster fire. But, you're Martel so...carry on.

p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I disagree, ork boyz are 1W dudes with 5'' movement and 6+ save. It's not that easy to charge with 20 boyz into a dread and kill it. Before turn 3 it's even impossible.

20 Orc Boyz can kill a Dread in the first round. They have 80 Attacks, hit 53,333 times, do 17,778 unsaved Wounds, Dread loses 5,926 wounds. It has 8. With some Luck its possible. If it doesnt go down the first turn, it goes down the second turn.

Unless you've got a Warboss nearby to let them Advance and still Charge (or a Battlewagon to start in and gain some disembark range), they're limited to 17" CC range in turn one, which will generally require the Dreadnought to have gone first and Advanced directly towards the Boyz. And a single casualty will take them down to 3 Attacks each, for about 4.5 Wounds caused.

 Elbows wrote:
The 2D6 system was not a dumpster fire. But, you're Martel so...carry on.

It absolutely was, because it encouraged weapons that rendered "normal" armor useless. Unless you want 5 pt marines, 2D6 saves can't be in the game.

 Blackie wrote:

In 7th a single lucky hit with an ap2 weapon could kill a dread or even a land raider. An ork army with 8 trukks always ended up with only 3 vehicles remaining after FIRST turn. Battlewagons were always killed in the first turn. Dreads are way more resilient now, in 7th they could even get immobilized just walking!!! Now a battlewagon has huge chances to survive first turn and in my games even against shooty armies I lost two trukks at most in single turn of shooting but typically one or even none.

Ah yes luck. Always good idea to arque how good/bad is by using lucky/unlucky edge cases...NOT!

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

In 7th a single lucky hit with an ap2 weapon could kill a dread or even a land raider. An ork army with 8 trukks always ended up with only 3 vehicles remaining after FIRST turn. Battlewagons were always killed in the first turn. Dreads are way more resilient now, in 7th they could even get immobilized just walking!!! Now a battlewagon has huge chances to survive first turn and in my games even against shooty armies I lost two trukks at most in single turn of shooting but typically one or even none.

Ah yes luck. Always good idea to arque how good/bad is by using lucky/unlucky edge cases...NOT!

The german guy also uses luck to justify his horror about the idea of boyz destroying a dread. 20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average. Not to mention that they die quite easily while advancing.

About one shot killing vehicles, I used to play 8 trukks in 7th edition and 10 paper vehicles with dark eldar. In every single game some vehicles were killed by a single shot at a certain point of the battle. At 1850 points any army didn't fire a single AP2 shot. So yes a single shot that was instant killing a vehicle was lucky but if you have even only 5-6 of those shots they become average. Hitting on 3s, pen on 1s or 2s and blowing up on 4s or 5s wasn't that unusual, even with a single shot.

Instead a troop unit that surrounds and kills a vehicle with a bunch of S3-4 hits doesn't happen every game, even with hordes armies.

 Blackie wrote:

20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average.

Did you read the 8th ed. rules ? Looks like you didnt. Lets do the math. 20 Boyz charge the Dread, 2 die of Overwatch. 18 Boyz remain, 54 attacks, 36 hits, 12 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 8, loses 4 wounds. Dread strikes back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 Orcs die. 16 Boyz remain. They shoot their pistols at the Dread, 16 shots, 5 hits, Dread loses 1 Wound, down to 3. 16 Boyz attack, 48 attacks, 16 hits, 5 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 2, loses 3 Wounds, and its killed. If the Dread survives with 1 or 2 wounds its dead the next round, because it can only kill 2 Orcs in one Turn. Its no problem for 20 Orc Boyz to kill a Dread in 2-3 rounds.

p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average.

Did you read the 8th ed. rules ? Looks like you didnt. Lets do the math. 20 Boyz charge the Dread, 2 die of Overwatch. 18 Boyz remain, 54 attacks, 36 hits, 12 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 8, loses 4 wounds. Dread strikes back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 Orcs die. 16 Boyz remain. They shoot their pistols at the Dread, 16 shots, 5 hits, Dread loses 1 Wound, down to 3. 16 Boyz attack, 48 attacks, 16 hits, 5 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 2, loses 3 Wounds, and its killed. If the Dread survives with 1 or 2 wounds its dead the next round, because it can only kill 2 Orcs in one Turn. Its no problem for 20 Orc Boyz to kill a Dread in 2-3 rounds.

And again, why is it such a problem?

p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average.

Did you read the 8th ed. rules ? Looks like you didnt. Lets do the math. 20 Boyz charge the Dread, 2 die of Overwatch. 18 Boyz remain, 54 attacks, 36 hits, 12 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 8, loses 4 wounds. Dread strikes back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 Orcs die. 16 Boyz remain. They shoot their pistols at the Dread, 16 shots, 5 hits, Dread loses 1 Wound, down to 3. 16 Boyz attack, 48 attacks, 16 hits, 5 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 2, loses 3 Wounds, and its killed. If the Dread survives with 1 or 2 wounds its dead the next round, because it can only kill 2 Orcs in one Turn. Its no problem for 20 Orc Boyz to kill a Dread in 2-3 rounds.

In 2-3 rounds!!!!!! They will get into combat with another 2-3 rounds which means that in the entire battle they maybe kill a dread. Wow. In 7th edition the lone p.klaw in a unit of boyz was enough to kill a dread. You also continue to consider boyz vs dread and nothing else. Boyz have t-shirt saves, they die quite easily. It's not a problem for the SM player to clear a mob of boyz, it's not the job of the dread. Some stormbolters and assault cannons shoot towards the mob that is approaching the dread, decimating it, now the boyz can't do serious damage to the dread if you really want to save it. And the dread can target something else, something more appropriate for its stats.

The math means nothing, you need to playtest the lists. Did you play 8th edtion? Looks like you didn't.

I did and my vehicles are way tougher now, while it's not that usual that my boyz destroyed a vehicle with a bunch of S4 hits. You need to consider the game overall, not a specific (and illogic) case.

fresus wrote:
And again, why is it such a problem?

Because they are using basic Melee Weapons, no AP. A Dread, or a Tank, is an armored Unit. AP Weapons are for wounding armored Units, non AP Weapons shouldnt be able to do so.

 Blackie wrote:

I did and my vehicles are way tougher now, while it's not that usual that my boyz destroyed a vehicle with a bunch of S4 hits. You need to consider the game overall, not a specific (and illogic) case.

The game overall has become highly illogical and unrealistic. The Orc Boyz killing armored vehicle is just one of many things wrong with 8th ed.

p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average.

Did you read the 8th ed. rules ? Looks like you didnt. Lets do the math. 20 Boyz charge the Dread, 2 die of Overwatch. 18 Boyz remain, 54 attacks, 36 hits, 12 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 8, loses 4 wounds. Dread strikes back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 Orcs die. 16 Boyz remain. They shoot their pistols at the Dread, 16 shots, 5 hits, Dread loses 1 Wound, down to 3. 16 Boyz attack, 48 attacks, 16 hits, 5 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 2, loses 3 Wounds, and its killed. If the Dread survives with 1 or 2 wounds its dead the next round, because it can only kill 2 Orcs in one Turn. Its no problem for 20 Orc Boyz to kill a Dread in 2-3 rounds.

Ummmm....no. SO you got the charge turn right, but on the Dread turn the following happens. 1.) If possible the Dread walks away, and the enemy army shoots the 16 orks to death. 2.) Even if not they Orks don't shoot their pistols, that is for their turn, which was the turn they charged, so maybe the did that prior to the charge (20 shots 7 hits, dread loses 2 wounds) but they don't do it after the charge turn. 3.) The dread on its turn if it hasn't fallen back, will attack before the boyz killing 2 more orks. This also assumes that the marine player doesn't charge in with something else to kill the orks.

Yes the Orks kill the dread in combat, I don't see this as an issue. This also depends on a lot of things. What if it is a double heavy flamer dread. Now it kills 5 orks in overwatch (assuming they don't make an 8+" charge).


Sorry this whole thread reads like: " I shouldn't need to use tactics to protect my dread from a horde of orks."

p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

20 ork boyz don't have the strenght to kill a dread on average.

Did you read the 8th ed. rules ? Looks like you didnt. Lets do the math. 20 Boyz charge the Dread, 2 die of Overwatch. 18 Boyz remain, 54 attacks, 36 hits, 12 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 8, loses 4 wounds. Dread strikes back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 Orcs die. 16 Boyz remain. They shoot their pistols at the Dread, 16 shots, 5 hits, Dread loses 1 Wound, down to 3. 16 Boyz attack, 48 attacks, 16 hits, 5 unsaved wounds, Dread saves 2, loses 3 Wounds, and its killed. If the Dread survives with 1 or 2 wounds its dead the next round, because it can only kill 2 Orcs in one Turn. Its no problem for 20 Orc Boyz to kill a Dread in 2-3 rounds.

I like how you're doing things like rounding 2.6 hits down to 2 to help make your point.

At any rate, this total vacuum stuff doesn't matter. In the reality of the game, the odds of 20 boys getting engaged with a single dreadnought, with zero support are so small, it's useless to try to make a point this way.