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So, Ork Nobs in their own unit have (effectively) 'Eavy Armor, giving them a 4+ Armor Save. The same nob models, put in a unit of Ork Boys, have no option to take (and are not assumed to be wearing) 'Eavy Armor, giving them a 6+ Armor Save. Why?

You can't upgrade Nobs in regular Boys mobs, Stormboy mobs, Kommando Mobs, or Tankbusta Mobs to have a 4+ save. I don't get why. The models often seem to be more heavily armored than their smaller compatriots. It can't be due to simply wanting to avoid differing armor saves in the unit. There are multiple units where the Grots/Runts have differing saves to the orks (or the guns they man). I get that it isn't going to matter a whole lot in play, since you can assign hits to any model within the unit, but it really annoys me from a modeling perspective (I modeled those guys with extra armor!) and a gameplay perspective (the VERY SAME MODEL has different stats based on which unit you put him in).

I'm hoping it's a decision from space considerations, and gets fixed in the eventual Ork Codex. Like the appalling lack of an 'Ard Boy option after I modeled 30 Goffs that way, and the removal of unit-wide Cybork Bodies after I modeled an entire Deffskull Nob mob that way to bodyguard Grotsnik.

GW seems to be dead-set against orks having access to decent saves. maybe they made way too many KFF meks and are desperate to sell them, so decided to make them basically mandatory.

Ideally Nobs would all have 'eavy armor, and specialist units like tankbustas, lootas, burnaboys etc could also get it as an upgrade. Cybork also needs to go back to being a 5++, with units of Nobs and Meganobs having access to it. and whoever took 'Ard Boys away deserves a grot prod colonoscopy.

Fun fact: there isn't a single unit in the game that has the option to upgrade their armour. IG Veterans and Inquisitorial Acolytes with carapace armour, SM captains with artificer armour, etc. etc. Any alternate armour options that have been retained are completely separate datasheets.

I'm not sure why this is exactly, but I guess there was some part of the design brief that said a model's characteristics should never be altered, or perhaps there's some part of the equation used to derive the points costs that tweaking armour saves screws with?

I am willing to bet ard boys will be in the codex, also it might be part of the clan rules. think goffs getting 4+ armor for x points, snakebites getting +1 T, re suns getting an extra inch of movement etc.

Thommy H wrote:
Fun fact: there isn't a single unit in the game that has the option to upgrade their armour. IG Veterans and Inquisitorial Acolytes with carapace armour, SM captains with artificer armour, etc. etc. Any alternate armour options that have been retained are completely separate datasheets.

I'm not sure why this is exactly, but I guess there was some part of the design brief that said a model's characteristics should never be altered, or perhaps there's some part of the equation used to derive the points costs that tweaking armour saves screws with?

It's due to the streamlining, units don't have equipment lists to choose from either.

I'm ok with boyz and 1W models that can't have a 4+ save. What it's really shameful is that flash gitz, which should be the richest nobz, are only 6+ while regular nobz have the 4+ save.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm ok with boyz and 1W models that can't have a 4+ save. What it's really shameful is that flash gitz, which should be the richest nobz, are only 6+ while regular nobz have the 4+ save.

I totally agree with this. It was dumb in the last Codex and it's dumb now. The models come with the same type of armor (shoulderpads, helmets, backplates, iron gobs, etc) that denote eavy armor on a nob, but it isn't 'eavy armor on them. It would make sense 'in game', and it makes sense looking at the models. Plus, I can't believe that 4+ armor on Flash Gitz would somehow totally screw up the balance.

Heck, I'm not even asking for armor upgrade options. Just assume that all nobs have 4+ saves. Unless you are using the old metal Gorkamorka ones (---guilty as charged---), they are wearing more armor than most boys already.


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 Colonel17 wrote:
GW seems to be dead-set against orks having access to decent saves. maybe they made way too many KFF meks and are desperate to sell them, so decided to make them basically mandatory.

Ideally Nobs would all have 'eavy armor, and specialist units like tankbustas, lootas, burnaboys etc could also get it as an upgrade. Cybork also needs to go back to being a 5++, with units of Nobs and Meganobs having access to it. and whoever took 'Ard Boys away deserves a grot prod colonoscopy.

Could not agree more on the penalty for Ard Boy removal. GW makes the sprues with plenty of armor plates to customize your guys, and then penalizes the most dedicated hobbyists who actually hoard/acquire armor for the boys by removing the benefit.

The weird thing is there are plenty of Ork units with 4+ saves. Nobs, Bikers, Nob Bikers. It's not like there's some uncrossable chasm between the 6+ lads and the 2+ Meganobs. But troops with them? Nope.

I'd be happy to lose the 6+ saves on my Grots (who are wearing loincloths or overalls, for the most part), to get those back.

Mixed armour units are a pain in the ass.

Although I think SM are still allowed to do it.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm ok with boyz and 1W models that can't have a 4+ save. What it's really shameful is that flash gitz, which should be the richest nobz, are only 6+ while regular nobz have the 4+ save.

Flash Gitz spent their teef on the snazziest guns. Only 'Uumies would waste thei teef on armour!

 Ghaz wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'm ok with boyz and 1W models that can't have a 4+ save. What it's really shameful is that flash gitz, which should be the richest nobz, are only 6+ while regular nobz have the 4+ save.

Flash Gitz spent their teef on the snazziest guns. Only 'Uumies would waste thei teef on armour!

Min / maxing is certainly in the spirit of Orks. Then again, if you're big or rich enough, you can always get you one that does both....

Personally I think that 'Ard Boyz will be a new unit introduced as a way to modernize the standard Ork infantry kit in the same way that Primaris did for Marines or Ironjawz did for fantasy Orcs. Maybe they could even dual kit them as Skarboyz to cater to different styles.

theocracity wrote:
Personally I think that 'Ard Boyz will be a new unit introduced as a way to modernize the standard Ork infantry kit in the same way that Primaris did for Marines or Ironjawz did for fantasy Orcs. Maybe they could even dual kit them as Skarboyz to cater to different styles.

I like this idea. It could be as simple as some different sets of arms. Armored arms and musclebound* arms would probably end up being about the same size.
*Even more musclebound than regular orks.

I have some of the old metal ork 'Ard Boy upgrades. When it comes to the torsos it was fairly hard to tell the difference between them and regular Boyz without looking real close. The AOS 'Ardboys look much more heavily armored.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

theocracity wrote:
Personally I think that 'Ard Boyz will be a new unit introduced as a way to modernize the standard Ork infantry kit in the same way that Primaris did for Marines or Ironjawz did for fantasy Orcs. Maybe they could even dual kit them as Skarboyz to cater to different styles.

I like this idea. It could be as simple as some different sets of arms. Armored arms and musclebound* arms would probably end up being about the same size.
*Even more musclebound than regular orks.

I have some of the old metal ork 'Ard Boy upgrades. When it comes to the torsos it was fairly hard to tell the difference between them and regular Boyz without looking real close. The AOS 'Ardboys look much more heavily armored.

I'm thinking that they could provide alternate chest plates as well - one armored, one naked and scarred - as long as they can design a generic back piece.

My one fear is that whatever kind of new kit scale creep that Boyz get will make it harder to distinguish between them and Nobs. New Boyz should hopefully stay at Boyz scale.

One thing that surprised me was that the Ironjaw Brutes, despite looking huge, still have approximately Boyz scale heads. It's their armor and posture that make them look gigantic.

It does seem odd. Space Wolves are allowed to put Wolf Guard pack leaders in Terminator armour.

Did anyone notice tho that Nobz randomly got access to power swords?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Did anyone notice tho that Nobz randomly got access to power swords?

Yeah, Power Stabbas are interesting and I'm happy we have them, but it's kind of weird that they were cutting out so much to streamline things and save space and then they add a whole new weapon. I think that whoever was writing the rules maybe was looking a little too closely at the Nobz box. "What's this weird spikey bionic arm bit? Better make up some rules for it! There's some other bionic bits, but not too many, so let's restrict cybork bodies to one in five."

Again, I'm not unhappy about getting a new weapon. It just seems strange. The restriction of one cybork in five also seems strange, although the upgrade doesn't seem worth it on a plain nob anyway.

It would have been a lot easier for everyone if it had just been power axes instead.

A lot of the Nobz don't look that heavily armored to me. If they don't change things up with the codex I think I'll use the less-armored looking ones to lead my squads of Boyz and make sure that my nob mobz have lots of armor bits.

Maybe they could give standard Nobz a 5+ save (with the option of 'Eavy Armor as an inexpensive upgrade) and also give Flash Gitz a 5+ save? They wouldn't need to adjust points that much, it would make Flash Gitz a little more survivable outside of vehicles and it would (IMO) be a little more representative of the armor that the models are actually wearing.

But that'd take effort, and they wouldn't dare give effort to non-marine forces.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mixed armour units are a pain in the ass.

Although I think SM are still allowed to do it.

Several SM factions are capable of doing mixed armor units. In fact, if you count terminators and invulnerable saves, every SM faction can. But 'Ard Boyz in most editions were never mixed armor-- you bought it for the entire squad at X points per model.

Deathwatch Kill teams are encouraged to mix profiles in fact