Switch Theme:

RaW are you even able to fire Assault weapons when you advance?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Step 3.1: Choose Unit to Shoot With explicitly states " You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

This means you will never have an opportunity to fire your Assault Weapons, since it only allows the individual model to fire, but you can never pick the unit that model is in due to step 3.1

Likewise for Pistols for units within 1" of an enemy. The rule allows MODELS to fire but you'll never be legally able to pick the unit for shooting in the first place.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/05 23:57:05


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






You have the right of it. The core 14 pages of rules are completely broken and most of the guns in the game don't work as intended.

Nobody will play it that way because its obvious what they meant the rules to be but man does gw suck at its job.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/29 18:01:10


   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.


3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.



t says MODELS can shoot assault weapons. Step 1 of the shooting phase sequence specifically tells you you cannot select the unit. Which mens you never reach the model part of the process.

   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.

Glad to see with even just 8 pages of rules people don't bother to read them.

I clearly explained the problem with the wording of the Assault weapon rules in the original post.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.

Glad to see with even just 8 pages of rules people don't bother to read them.

I clearly explained the problem with the wording of the Assault weapon rules in the original post.


I'm glad to see that no matter how fine the hairs become, some beardlord out there will find a way to split them.

Gwar: I'm going to quit while I can.

Meh, close enough  
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





I look forward to seeing how many #*@%s will be given about this inconsistency in wording vis a vis the crystal clear intent.

Good on you for pointing it out.
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle






It'll never be played this way. So does it matter?
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 lordwellingstone wrote:
It'll never be played this way. So does it matter?


It only matters to show that the core rules are less than 20 pages and gas rules writing is so bad that they broke the game within 5. Its fine when the intent is this clear. But look how many arguments exist, or how long the faq thread is, when the game hasn't even been out for a month

   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.



But both of those rules are in the core rule book. its not like special rule in a codex that succeeds the brb like in the past.

mind you the intent is obvious all they need to do is write a little something something that says unless otherwise allowed and this would be open and shut.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





It's rather obvious.

They should have used the word "models" instead of "units" in the shooting phase entry.

You shoot with models, not units in 8th edition. As every model shoots at whatever it wants.

They used Units because that how phase progression works.

The best way to have worded it would have been; You may not pick a unit with no models that can shoot, if they have Advanced or Fell Back etc. etc. one inch....blah blah blah.

Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!  
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Idolator wrote:
It's rather obvious.

They should have used the word "models" instead of "units" in the shooting phase entry.

You shoot with models, not units in 8th edition. As every model shoots at whatever it wants.

They used Units because that how phase progression works.

The best way to have worded it would have been; You may not pick a unit with no models that can shoot, if they have Advanced or Fell Back etc. etc. one inch....blah blah blah.


Or not. Let someone select the unit. Then they get to the part where they pick guns and can't do anything. Fixed. There was no reason to restrict the selection of units. Place all the restrictions on the guns.

   
Made in lu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






They've never been able to use the two terms properly, 8th is no exception.
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

apwill4765 wrote:

I'm glad to see that no matter how fine the hairs become, some beardlord out there will find a way to split them.


DCannon4Life wrote:I look forward to seeing how many #*@%s will be given about this inconsistency in wording vis a vis the crystal clear intent.

Good on you for pointing it out.


lordwellingstone wrote:It'll never be played this way. So does it matter?


These. All of these.

WH40K
Weeping Legion 2000 pts.

DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+

26 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
 
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

 Lance845 wrote:
 lordwellingstone wrote:
It'll never be played this way. So does it matter?


It only matters to show that the core rules are less than 20 pages and gas rules writing is so bad that they broke the game within 5. Its fine when the intent is this clear. But look how many arguments exist, or how long the faq thread is, when the game hasn't even been out for a month


That's because of some people whose sole intent is to try and break the game. God himself could have written the rules in the clearest possible way and there would be some hitting out with tripe like "The rules don't state that I can't just flip the table over an claim instant victory. If GW doesn't want us to do that they should have stated it as such. Why are they sooo unclear?!? The game is broken!!!"


The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




apwill4765 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.

Glad to see with even just 8 pages of rules people don't bother to read them.

I clearly explained the problem with the wording of the Assault weapon rules in the original post.


I'm glad to see that no matter how fine the hairs become, some beardlord out there will find a way to split them.


Then what purpose does this forum serve if it is not to discuss the rules?

Or are you just here to call people that want clarity in the rules neckbeards?
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

Ruin wrote:
apwill4765 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Well under the weapons Assault it clearly supercedes the core. By saying hey you can shoot this assault weapon even if you advanced. Just at -1 to hit.

Glad to see with even just 8 pages of rules people don't bother to read them.

I clearly explained the problem with the wording of the Assault weapon rules in the original post.


I'm glad to see that no matter how fine the hairs become, some beardlord out there will find a way to split them.


Then what purpose does this forum serve if it is not to discuss the rules?

Or are you just here to call people that want clarity in the rules neckbeards?


The purpose of this forum is to discuss rules that are actually affecting real gameplay. This issue will never come up, because no one is going to imply that their opponents cannot shoot their Assault weapons because of a poorly worded rule.

For instance, in editions past, you could say that some models could never fire because they didn't have eyes. You were told to draw LOS from a model's eyes. You could start a thread in YMDC to discuss the validity of the fact that your Wraithlords could not shoot because they have no eyes, or you could inject some common sense into your reading of the rules.

For other examples (in editions past) of how the rules didn't work when using RAW alone, without some sense of abstraction and sensible interpretation, see this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/278461.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 17:39:09


WH40K
Weeping Legion 2000 pts.

DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+

26 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Quick let's go back to super heavy vehicle guilliman in 7th......

There is a point where intention is questionable and a point where it's obvious. I am a stickler for the RAW normally but in this circumstance it is clearly just bad writting also there is no room for interpretation as everyone with a brain cells in any tournament will play this in a tournament with RAI over RAW

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 22:30:33


 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/02 16:20:00


6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts

"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Over complicating something simple which is why about 90% of the FAQ questions so far revolve around I can't comprehend what I read.
So the shooting rules say select a unit, but you can't select a unit that advanced. Yeah ok but we're not selecting a unit the assault weapon rule simply states that model can shoot even if it advanced.
Can the rest of it's unit shoot too? Nope they advanced and can't be selected. but he can shoot outside the normal shooting rules because his rule says so.
This applies the same to BRB rules or Index rules. Example a unit that advanced can't be selected to shoot. Psychic power says the targeted unit can shoot even if they advanced. So they can shoot.
Shooting rules say you can't select them, psychic power says they can shoot anyway. So bang bang on the fun button for them.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: