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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




I have been using the term Smoke and Mirrors a lot last year when it came to Games Workshop on their changes. Now that 8th edition for 40K is out and seeing the prices come in now, besides the better rules, and community involvement, has Games Workshop really learned their lesson? By that I mean $45 Canadian dollars for one figure. Then for a "web exclusive" only you can buy 2 minis for $90. So what is so web exclusive or savings for that from buying separately at your local friendly gaming store?

To me this is same ole same ole GW from the past. Maybe because it's 40K and GW knows they can get away with it, but you would think from all the good they were doing, they wouldn't want to do a "step back" so soon. Just coming back to 40K and seeing the great stuff GW was doing, these prices are putting the breaks to my excitement getting back. Before I would buy GW products after not buying their stuff pre 2016. Now I am leary of going full steam back into 8th edition now. I guess time will tell.

So do you think GW is going back to old way to milk and fleece 40K? Yes I know, GW is a company to make money, but there are other companies out there, that make lots of money for selling a lot less. I still don't see 40K as the "Premium" game and to be charging the "premium" prices I just shake my head. I mean over $100 Canadian with taxes for two small minis just seem ludicrous and insane.

What are your thoughts on two minis for almost $100? What are your thoughts on GW going back to their old ways in pricing and seeing they haven't learned one of the reasons we stopped buying was because of price increases and crazy prices.

Davor

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 19:32:10


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'd never expect a web exclusive to be cheaper than buying elsewhere.....

but the prices are higher than I'm comfortable with even for a single character mini (especially as there's not an excuse that they're a character you'd only ever want one of like Draigo)

on the other hand they're NOT going back to their old pricing (ie everything is expensive) as we've got some pretty reasonably priced other starter versions coming up next week

they may well be looking to see if people will pay more for the new Primeris (they can't just ask, people would just say no even if it wasn't true), its important info for the company to have (I'm sure the Fyreslayer prices were a similar question for AoS and there then answer was NO)

so people should avoid buying them

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Good points there Orlando. So GW is testing the waters what they can get away with, with 40K. I know I will be voting with my wallet and not buying them. The price for a single mini over $35 Canadian is just turning me off now and leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in au
Highlord of Terra





Melbourne .au

They're better than they were, mostly via bundle packaging such as Start Collecting, and boxed games that are stealth-miniatures-compilation boxes. Their community engagement is far, far better than it was, but they're still a large corporate entity.

But they're not the GW of 1989, or even 1999. Anyone expecting such is deluding themselves with unrealistic expectations and ideas. Even under Ansell, they were run as a business and not our friend. There's an article (on RoC '80's, I think) that describes when one particular employee figured that leader/hero models could be sold for more even though they cost the same to produce (in lead), and passed that idea to Ansell, who ran with it, leading to the market standard that we now have across all games.

People were complaining about their pricing back in the mid-1990s, so nothing has changed there except that they got worse. As Orlando said, they're not ever going to be dialling it back to "only" a bit bad. "Better than Kirby" is as good as we're going to get, and we know, that particular bar was pretty low...

   
Made in us
Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

Has anyone thought maybe the high price for the Primaris characters is because they have their rules in the box as well?

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Over there...

I think they've learnt a lesson, which is that if you're going to call your game a 'premium' product, you have to actually put some effort into making it. And because it's a game, that means the rules as well, not just churning out a stream of pretty miniatures.

I don't think that 'Your products are over-priced' is a lesson that they're at all receptive to, yet. And whether or not it's one they actually need to learn remains to be seen... the fact that you or I, or anyone else on this forum thinks the minis are still too expensive is not automatically a sign that they are too expensive. It's possible that the excitement for 8th edition will be sufficient to bring in enough newcomers with bottomless wallets to keep things on the up for them.

   
Made in au
Highlord of Terra





Melbourne .au

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Has anyone thought maybe the high price for the Primaris characters is because they have their rules in the box as well?


I doubt that makes any difference at all. It's simply going to be on one page of their assembly instructions, after all. Their rules will doubtlessly be in the Codex: Space Marines book that we'll have in hand inside 2 months, not to mention all over the web shortly before the official release. I think it's much more likely that they're simply testing the waters on the wave of enthusiasm that 8th has generated.

I think Inasniak's point on a lesson learned is also a good one, along with being a more outwardly friendly and receptive company with social media, etc. So they've gotten better in some ways, including pricing - at least in the manner I discussed earlier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/02 00:46:03


   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder





 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Has anyone thought maybe the high price for the Primaris characters is because they have their rules in the box as well?


Yeah the 1 cent baseball card they could print the rules on raised the price
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




They're about to post some remarkable financials, possibly the best they've ever recorded as a public company.

What lesson do we think we've taught them about pricing that they haven't listened to?

I read a lot more than I post, but I've quietly dispaired of people who've been vocallly critical of GW, often prominently about the prices, who then just crumble and throw money as soon as the "right" sort of shiny hits the pre release part of the web store.

From my perspective, the only thing GW have been taught, and they learned it a long time ago, is if people are sufficiently excited by a product, they can charge pretty much what they like and be sure of making money.
   
Made in us
Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

 Chute82 wrote:
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Has anyone thought maybe the high price for the Primaris characters is because they have their rules in the box as well?


Yeah the 1 cent baseball card they could print the rules on raised the price


As opposed to the nickel's worth of plastic already there? Costs don't really determine their prices, its perceived value. But thanks for the condescension.

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey





Mississippi

They are starting to do better in some areas, but not the important ones.

The indexes feel like the right sort of price for what you get, and the free 8-page rules is a start.

But it feels like they went the wrong direction with the rules - going for stripped down instead of straightened up - and the models are still fairly expensive. Moreso than they should be, I believe.

Have they learned anything? Yep, that the new shiny sells, and if you offer the same thing at multiple price points folks will buy a copy of each version. Not sure it's gone much beyond that.

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Highlord of Terra





Melbourne .au

Stripped down, or streamlined is exactly what 40k needed in terms of rules at this point. 6th/7th has been the polar opposite of accessible to new (and returning) players. But far more important has been the barrier to new blood.

The rules have been a huge barrier to entry for new players for years, particularly younger ones where they're competing directly with Sony and Microsoft for youth entertainment dollars (though Sony and MS are hardly needing to compete with GW).

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Azazelx wrote:
Stripped down, or streamlined is exactly what 40k needed in terms of rules at this point. 6th/7th has been the polar opposite of accessible to new (and returning) players. But far more important has been the barrier to new blood.

The rules have been a huge barrier to entry for new players for years, particularly younger ones where they're competing directly with Sony and Microsoft for youth entertainment dollars (though Sony and MS are hardly needing to compete with GW).


The problem is that 40k has been stripped down in terms of strategic depth but hasn't really lost much complexity. The core rules are shorter, but now each individual unit has its own special snowflake rules to copy most of the old USRs. And with so many weapons having random stats it's even harder for a new player (or even an experienced player who doesn't feel like doing the math) to figure out what option is best. It's not really that much friendlier to new players, and I suspect that with time people are going to realize that it's not a very good game for more experienced players either.

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in au
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 insaniak wrote:
I think they've learnt a lesson, which is that if you're going to call your game a 'premium' product, you have to actually put some effort into making it. And because it's a game, that means the rules as well, not just churning out a stream of pretty miniatures.


I think GW has learnt two lessons in recent days:

1. They don't own what they think they own (that court case proved that).
2. Social media is a good way of seeming to be doing good without needing to do good.

In the case of the former, their response was to burn their longest legacy to the ground and salt the earth, replacing it with Age of Sigmar. They're following that up in 40K with the Primaris, essentially abandoning the product line that kept them in business for larger and more expensive models. They learnt to not put out rules for things that don't have models, which was a real "Careful what you wish for!" moment for a lot of us who thought that the court case would see them finally release models for things that just had rules. We got the opposite, and this bizarre "No models, no rules" nonsense reached its nadir (or zenith, depending on your point of view) with the Deathwatch Codex, a book full of so many utterly arbitrary and asinine restrictions that they still linger in the new edition (DW Chaplains can't have powerfists, DW Librarians cannot have Storm Shield, but only if they're in Terminator armour, etc).

To put it simply: I'm tired of breathing the smoke.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 12:48:25


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tampa, FL

I think they have improved small things, but the core things are still bad and show no sign of improvement. A lot of good things they did with AOS (such as freely available warscrolls) was removed from 40k, seemingly just because they know 40k is more popular and they can get away with it. Them putting out an FAQ is good, but there's a lot of glaring issues still that have no fixes or, if intended, are nonsensical and most of it was saying you can't abuse the rules.

So for me, I think they've improved but it's still mostly smoke and mirrors, just less smoke and mirrors than before.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






Just look at what GW did late last year with the "earn points to buy" miniatures. I loved the new Chaplin Terminator that was release and the information
being released that it was available at new store opening. My sister in law lived in an area that just got a store so I asked her to go there to pick one up for me.
She found out that you had to collect points buy either buying merchandise or signing up for games. She would need to spend $250 just to be able to purchase
the figure. I passed.

As for lower entry cost and model count for newer players in the new 40k; I don't really see it either. If a player wasn't sure what he wanted to play and just bought the main box
set, he would then have to turn around and buy $125 more of books. I know many old timers that went this route and bought everything. I am sure that a few of the books will
be obsolete with in six months.

AOS was no better with the free rules, The product was correctly valued though.. Remember the train wreak it was when it came out?? There was not way many people
would have gave the game a look if not for being free. If a new player needed to spend the same amount for AOS as the current 40k release, I think the game would have never
recovered.

Not wanting to start another AOS verses the world thread, just agreeing that though GW has gotten better in many things. They are still troubled to reach levels of their past.
Things like the White Dwarf Magazine and Warhammer was great before and was high rated in most people's eyes.. they allowed it to drop way before fixing it and returning to a better place.
So it was an 8, dropped to a 2 then raised back to a 5... GW can now say they are doing better than before..

 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran






Smoke and mirrors going on? That's a clear yes and no.

They're doing marketing now. Not just any marketing, but the ever so popular everything we do is awesome marketing. It's easy to get caught up in the high spirits, but of course we are being lied to. Sometimes more heinously than other times. But of course, with marketing they are certainly not straight with us. They're trying to sell us a narrative, that of New GW. The good guy who listens to and values your opinion.

On the other hand, as a perk of being a publicly traded company, Rountree was so nice to tell us that there would be no price drops but that they would look into how they can make pricing more attractive, which ended up as bundle deals and more expensive overall, but cheaper per miniature reboxings. Sure, financial reports aren't immune to stretching the truth as far as legally possible, but overall, GW has been pretty straight with us.

GW hasn't changed because they are suddenly listening to us. They've been listening alright, but to their accountants telling them all the crap they pulled under Kirby wasn't sustainable. GW still obeys economic laws. They had to make their product more attractive to us, because at the end of the day, us customers are the ones from which they get their money. But I think it's a grave mistake to buy into their marketing. They have the opportunity to sell their change of direction as listening to us, and so they do, but I see nothing in New GW that isn't easier explained as a product of internal assessment than market research:

- The same crew that ran 7th ed 40k and 8th ed Fantasy into the ground is still at it. Background and rules have been burned to the ground, and the earth has been salted. There has been complete shift from the previous target group to a different one, with sweeping changes that do not consider the old customer base at all (presumably) because it has been eroded to the point where building up a new customer base and perhaps bringing some of the old one over is more viable than repairing the damaged relationship with the old one.
- Prices have not dropped. The image of a premium product is still maintained by having stupidly high prices. The only concession is a range of starter products because GW had to admit that customers have to be won over before they can be milked instead of just flocking to GW awesomeness, as was Kirby's approach.
- GW keeps an iron grip on the narrative, both through consistently positive emotional appeal in their marketing as well as removing critical posts on their facebook pages. This naturally extends to their financial reports, in which they are no failures, just manageable challenges with suggested solutions.

I see none of this influenced by customer input. Neither vocal nor majority customer opinion. I do believe that internal evaluation did involve market research (shocking, I know, but let's not hold Kirby to his word too much) into how they might change both Warhammers into something modern youth is interested in. As far as I'm concerned, and bear with me here as I'm using sweeping and probably incorrect imagery here (no offense, comic fans ), is that they changed the background to a super hero comic universe in which only the big names matter, those big names can be everywhere at once to battle other big names, a straightened good versus evil narrative and false drama (bad guys stomp face, good guys pull magic trick out of their arse, win in the nick of time against impossible odds - every time). On the gaming side, the streamlined core rules and the advertised bespoke unit rules are geared towards presenting each unit as something special in a very basic framework, allowing players to pick their hero team with exactly those special rules rules that appeal to the player (I differ in my assessment of this to others who correctly suggest that thanks to stuffing special rules into unit rules, no actual streamlining has happened, in that I believe the design behind this is not to streamline and as such a failure on GW's part, but a calculated effort to sell a hero unit with special powers for something that would in any sane ruleset be a normal line unit). I see this as an effort to move away from army creation in the classic sense to a more deck building system you can get in card and video games.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





SoCal

I agree with similar middle road statements. GW is still a business, and the people running it are still businessmen. However, the people in charge are capable businessmen instead of just men that happen to be in charge and entrenched both in ownership and money making.

All these changes recently is only motivated by the fact that they have a hugely popular product that is easy to sell and want to sell it, it's just that the people who got in the way of selling product have stepped back.

However, if some of those actual good business decisions happen to align with consumer interest, fine by me so long as people get what they want for the premium they've been paying.

   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler






Except that you haven't been paying attention and this has been standard pricing for two sprue characters for a while now. The Tzaangor Shaman on Disk, Changling, Lord Castellant, Lord Cellestant, and Ahriman all say hi. Those are all similar sized or similar sprue count characters that go for $35 to $40. In that time they have also still released a number of $25 characters. That these NuMarines are larger models that require two sprues up their cost. Is it pricey? Yes it is. Does it mean that GW is gouging us? No more than what has been the case over the past year plus since the new CEO took over. The prices are in line with what they have been releasing. No new sinister plan to gouge everyone beyond what was already normal.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
DCM User




Washington

If you're referring to the primaris librarian and primaris captain, I have a personal theory for why those were bundled with no discount.

Basically, I think they were thinking that they would quickly sell out on pre-order, and basically created a "one click" option to attempt to ease people's fears that one would sell out while adding the other to the cart. . . or something.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Prices continue to be their weakest area.

Starter bundles are great if you are starting. However, no one uses the models from the starters very often.

The "good" stuff is highly overpriced.
   
Made in au
Highlord of Terra





Melbourne .au

 Genoside07 wrote:
Just look at what GW did late last year with the "earn points to buy" miniatures. I loved the new Chaplin Terminator that was release and the information
being released that it was available at new store opening. My sister in law lived in an area that just got a store so I asked her to go there to pick one up for me.
She found out that you had to collect points buy either buying merchandise or signing up for games. She would need to spend $250 just to be able to purchase
the figure. I passed.


Agreed. gak like that is ridiculous.



As for lower entry cost and model count for newer players in the new 40k; I don't really see it either. If a player wasn't sure what he wanted to play and just bought the main box
set, he would then have to turn around and buy $125 more of books. I know many old timers that went this route and bought everything. I am sure that a few of the books will
be obsolete with in six months.


Ridiculous example. No new player is that stupid that they're going to spend $125 on all of the index books to have a look because they're not sure what they want to play. I am an old timer and bought them all (including the FW ones), but then, I have all of the armies, so c'est la vie.



AOS was no better with the free rules, The product was correctly valued though.. Remember the train wreak it was when it came out?? There was not way many people
would have gave the game a look if not for being free. If a new player needed to spend the same amount for AOS as the current 40k release, I think the game would have never
recovered.


AoS was a clusterfeth at launch. However, they did do some things right (free rules) and many things horribly (gimmick rules, no points, etc)



Not wanting to start another AOS verses the world thread, just agreeing that though GW has gotten better in many things. They are still troubled to reach levels of their past.
Things like the White Dwarf Magazine and Warhammer was great before and was high rated in most people's eyes.. they allowed it to drop way before fixing it and returning to a better place.
So it was an 8, dropped to a 2 then raised back to a 5... GW can now say they are doing better than before..


"Better" is all relative, as you say.
I wouldn't ever call pre-weekly WD an 8/10. WD had two real high periods. Those being around the release of Rogue Trader for a few years, and then again during Paul Sawyer's reign as editor. Individual issues and articles outside of those times have of course been great, but overall ...not 8/10.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/07 18:11:14


   
Made in es
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Vigo. Spain.

They have reboxed the Stormcast Eternals boxes for their infantry lowering the price like 37% per model. So they are willing to learn. You need to vote with your wallet.

A reboxed that actually lowered the price a significant amount per model. Whats the last time have you seen that before they did it with stormcast Liberators, etc...?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran






 Galas wrote:
They have reboxed the Stormcast Eternals boxes for their infantry lowering the price like 37% per model. So they are willing to learn. You need to vote with your wallet.

A reboxed that actually lowered the price a significant amount per model. Whats the last time have you seen that before they did it with stormcast Liberators, etc...?


The term you are looking for is Reverse Dire Avengered. They Reverse Dire Avengered those Sigmarines right good!

The principle isn't all that spectacular. They've done this with old unit boxes like Juggernauts upping them from 3 to 6 per box at a lower price per models. Little tree thingies Wood Elves used to have, too. Chaos Marauders, Saurus, too, I think. The thing that sticks out is that they did it with a new Sigmarine kit. That should tell us Sigmarines didn't perform as they were supposed to as the flagship line on the fantasy side.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Geifer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
They have reboxed the Stormcast Eternals boxes for their infantry lowering the price like 37% per model. So they are willing to learn. You need to vote with your wallet.

A reboxed that actually lowered the price a significant amount per model. Whats the last time have you seen that before they did it with stormcast Liberators, etc...?


The term you are looking for is Reverse Dire Avengered. They Reverse Dire Avengered those Sigmarines right good!

The principle isn't all that spectacular. They've done this with old unit boxes like Juggernauts upping them from 3 to 6 per box at a lower price per models. Little tree thingies Wood Elves used to have, too. Chaos Marauders, Saurus, too, I think. The thing that sticks out is that they did it with a new Sigmarine kit. That should tell us Sigmarines didn't perform as they were supposed to as the flagship line on the fantasy side.

Or it could tell you that they listened to feedback.

A lot of people had early on commented that buying Liberators or Prosecutors as their own kit was ill-advised, since they were 5 models for $50 and 3 for something like $60. The kits had new options certainly, but they were easy enough to either convert or kitbash or just plain ignore that people just went for the stuff in the starter set instead.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

It doesn't seem like smoke and mirrors to me at all. It seems like there are some genuine improvements GW has made over the last year.
8th, personally, I enjoy as a rule set. Some of it's dumb, (no more fire arcs for vehicles) but it's better than 7th, and unlike some people you occasionally see on dakka, I'm not waiting for GW to be perfect, I want to see them be better, to improve. So rules wise, for me and for a lot of people, (if the local FLGS and dakka are to be trusted) there has been a definite improvement from 7th to 8th.
As regards pricing, some of it is still 'bullgak' (as far as a luxury product's price can be defined as such, more in a moment) but the start collecting boxes or the transport/infantry boxes are good for bulking out your forces easily. Take for example the tau start collecting box and the pathfinder/devilfish box. People are always going to want fire warriors, pathfinders, crisis suits and devilfish. Personally I don't have an ethereal yet so that's a plus too, but even without that, it's normally £45 for three crisis suits (Imo a bit much but that's just personal, links to the above bracket) and with the start collecting, you're effectively buying your crisis suits and getting ten fire warriors plus drones for £5 (and the ethereal but that's more situationally important). As with the 'Optimised Pathfinder Team', normally you're paying a total of £42.50 when buying separately, here you're paying £32.50 for two units you were, as a tau player, almost certainly going to be buying anyway. Obviously this doesn't apply to all factions, eg the SM box is not great unless you want multiple venerable dreads because no one wants multiple same pose terminator captains and if you don't want the dread why not just buy a tactical box. However, on the most part the start collecting boxes are good value, and the combined transport/infantry are all good, unless you drunk an army with neither (which would be a little weird to me, but different strokes for different folks and all that).
As for the pricing of this luxury product, we must remember it is exactly that. A luxury. GW doesn't owe you anything other than the model you get for giving them money. They are a business, not your local wargaming club where everyone's here to have fun. And they can set the prices wherever they please, and provided enough people pay that price and they cover their costs (which is the tens of thousands of pounds to create the moulds, as has been said the plastic and cardboard itself means nothing to them) while making a profit, well bully for them and they aren't going to budge, nor should they, they're there to supply a demand in return for profit, just because you personally disagree with their pricing model means they have to change it for you. So yes, if you do think it's all smoke and mirrors and GW is evil and 'oh god they're ripping us off' then vote with your wallet, and if enough people agree and don't buy, prices will come down in the next batch of models.
Remember though what I said about how I personally don't care if they become perfect, only better? Well look at the pricing this way. In some areas, like the new primaris models, they've kept the same or similar 'bullgak' prices as all the other two sprue character models they've produced recently. But in other areas, they've made the game cheaper with the combination boxes, the start collecting boxes and the boxed games. So for me, on the pricing, it's not all smoke and mirrors, they've genuinely made some improvements, both in terms of intention and in reality.
And as regards "Social media is a good way of seeming to be doing good without needing to do good." Bully for you m8 that you dislike their efforts on social media, but frankly I don't care, especially when it comes to Warhammer TV. Ever since GW set up that channel and the facebook page to go with it, my enjoyment of the hobby has skyrocketed because I have learned so much regarding painting from the free service that GW has provided. Yes it does help them sell models, so 'oh look smoke and mirrors, ooooo the deception' but I don't mind. I can use the techniques I've learnt on any model range. I choose to paint mainly GW stuff, but that doesn't preclude what they've done being of genuine value to both mine and I'm sure others' enjoyment of the hobby.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/08 00:25:48


My hobby blog, weekly updates hopefully http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641714.page#7702117
A tutorial on painting galaxies on cloaks: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717754.page
Minis painted since Jan 1st 2017: 39
Minis bought since Jan 1st 2017: 106
 Galas wrote:
But if we don't explode in a tide of hyperbole and exaggerations with every little piece of information. What would we talk about in these forums?
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





They've definitely improved, but that doesn't mean they've necessary become the company you want them to be. People are excited because things are trending upward, but that trend isn't necessarily going to rise to meet your expectations, its just exciting to be on an upward swing.
   
Made in de
Dakar





Rhein Main Gebiet

Agree, with LunarSol. They are better now and that is good enough for the moment. If they roll back the embargo and move all their printing to the UK/EU (other 1st world country) then I will have very little to gripe about.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

GW's pricing is all over the place, and that is smarter than it first looks.

Kirby was 99% wrong, but price hikes did help GW a little, or they would not have perpetuated the policy. Now there are several levels of pricing, cheaper bundle deals that are spammable, average priced unit and character boxes/blisters and some individual character boxes which are heavily priced.

You can have a large army of Primaris without much cost if you repeat buy the 40K starter components, or buy the Getting Started sets,you can add variety at reasonable price by buying a different unit or two in boxsets, if you want to you can pay through the nose for a different character model not otherwise available.

GW win both ways, those on tight budgets can cost up ad buy an army for 8th or AOS effectively, those who need their plastic crack habit can pay what GW charges for the maximum variety in their collection, most players will end up somewhere between the two.

Furthermore those on a tight budget might still impulse buy an overpriced character box at a later time swallow the cost and feel fairly good about it as a they get to complete their collections. As for the correct gripes the Primaris Captain is window dressing, you can make up officers of any rank from the boxset officers. The Librarian is somewhat more problematic, but a gamer n a budget will convert and those conversions will be valid for play if based on genuine Primaris marines. By highlighting select character boxsets as the high price items GW is not constraining anyone to a corner, if you need them for your collection kitbash them, or buy them. Its not like they are putting a high tier price (relative) on Tacticals.

A tiered price structure works, and it is smart business.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/08 11:34:52


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran






 Kanluwen wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
They have reboxed the Stormcast Eternals boxes for their infantry lowering the price like 37% per model. So they are willing to learn. You need to vote with your wallet.

A reboxed that actually lowered the price a significant amount per model. Whats the last time have you seen that before they did it with stormcast Liberators, etc...?


The term you are looking for is Reverse Dire Avengered. They Reverse Dire Avengered those Sigmarines right good!

The principle isn't all that spectacular. They've done this with old unit boxes like Juggernauts upping them from 3 to 6 per box at a lower price per models. Little tree thingies Wood Elves used to have, too. Chaos Marauders, Saurus, too, I think. The thing that sticks out is that they did it with a new Sigmarine kit. That should tell us Sigmarines didn't perform as they were supposed to as the flagship line on the fantasy side.

Or it could tell you that they listened to feedback.

A lot of people had early on commented that buying Liberators or Prosecutors as their own kit was ill-advised, since they were 5 models for $50 and 3 for something like $60. The kits had new options certainly, but they were easy enough to either convert or kitbash or just plain ignore that people just went for the stuff in the starter set instead.


The question isn't whether they listen to feedback or not, but whose feedback they listen to. Of course they listen. They have trained businessmen working for them who should have a reasonable idea of what they're doing. GW has been around long enough that you should assume they didn't stay in business through sheer luck.

"Voting with your wallet" is customer feedback, but not very specific. If you don't buy, GW doesn't know why you don't buy. By and large, they don't even know that you don't buy. Given that many a kit has been criticized over the years for its price, picking out of the constant drone that these two specific kits, and not a single other one, are just that little bit too expensive for customers and as a result GW should lower their price is simply not a plausible scenario. Not when you have competent accountants, sales goals and actual sales for those accountants to draw conclusions from.

Obviously you don't get one without the other. GW interacts with us even if it is as simple as a buy/sell interaction. How we react does not go completely unnoticed by the company. There is no way customer feedback is not a thing, even at the lowest point GW reached. That doesn't mean our feedback has any meaningful impact, though.

 Orlanth wrote:
GW's pricing is all over the place, and that is smarter than it first looks.

Kirby was 99% wrong, but price hikes did help GW a little, or they would not have perpetuated the policy. Now there are several levels of pricing, cheaper bundle deals that are spammable, average priced unit and character boxes/blisters and some individual character boxes which are heavily priced.

You can have a large army of Primaris without much cost if you repeat buy the 40K starter components, or buy the Getting Started sets,you can add variety at reasonable price by buying a different unit or two in boxsets, if you want to you can pay through the nose for a different character model not otherwise available.

GW win both ways, those on tight budgets can cost up ad buy an army for 8th or AOS effectively, those who need their plastic crack habit can pay what GW charges for the maximum variety in their collection, most players will end up somewhere between the two.

Furthermore those on a tight budget might still impulse buy an overpriced character box at a later time swallow the cost and feel fairly good about it as a they get to complete their collections. As for the correct gripes the Primaris Captain is window dressing, you can make up officers of any rank from the boxset officers. The Librarian is somewhat more problematic, but a gamer n a budget will convert and those conversions will be valid for play if based on genuine Primaris marines. By highlighting select character boxsets as the high price items GW is not constraining anyone to a corner, if you need them for your collection kitbash them, or buy them. Its not like they are putting a high tier price (relative) on Tacticals.

A tiered price structure works, and it is smart business.


I can be a working business model. I wouldn't want to speculate whether it's better or worse than some alternatives, but tiered pricing could work to GW's advantage by providing people on a budget a relatively inexpensive way of building a a functioning, if potentially dull army while speaking to the desire of others to stand out and personalize their army with special, albeit expensive units.

It solves one of GW's biggest problems, getting a player base large enough to draw in more customers on its own. That's been missing in the last decade and bundle deals are finally winning people back.

And at the same time anyone who wants anything special and customized has to reach deeper into their pockets, but gets to have their super special army that's different from the plain standard.

It's much cleverer to have a premium section next to an affordable baseline. Much better than being all premium all the time as they tried before.
   
 
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