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Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Georgia

So Vanquisher battle cannons are frankly... underwhelming but thats nothing new. It looked like Vanquisher might have a chance a S9 in the GSC entry but as of today that dream was squashed. After chatting with other players this profile was proposed to represent the monstrous cannon that has been the death of even traitor titans.
.
72", Heavy 1, S9, AP-3, 2d6

S9 lets it wound most things on a 3+, and 2d6 means your average dmg is going to be 7, while the single shot on a 4+ leaves it as still a tisky vhoice for your average russ but more suited for tank commanders or pask. We still havent decided if we would up the points cost or leave as is. So what are your thoughts Dakkadakka?

Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k

The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns. 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I like it. It's not too far off my own suggestions. Would you still allow the damage reroll or would you drop that?
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Georgia

Three versions were proposed,

1. Just drop it all together
B. It only kicks in if you haven't moved
Last. You can only reroll one of the d6

Personally as the guard player I suggested just drop it all together as 2d6 dmg is pretty dang hefty, with a good roll can just outright gig so many things. But if the rerol were to be kept in some form I would suggest rerolling one of the D6s, but only of you didn't move, to represent lining up a shot to cause maximum.damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 00:31:43


Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k

The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns. 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






If you are going with 2D6 I'd definitely scrap the reroll. Tha would probably be op.

Definitely strength 9 though. Functionally it should be like a super las cannon.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Stealing the Stygies pattern vanquisher cannon bonus might be nice - +1 to hit if the vehicle hasn't moved. But with the current vanquisher barely being more expensive than the battle cannon +1 strength and +1D6 to damage with the loss of the reroll might be worth it.

Alternative profile could be:

72", Heavy 1, S9, AP-3, 1d6
If this model did not move this turn, add +1 to hit rolls with this weapon during the Shooting Phase. Hits against vehicles cause 2d6 damage instead of 1d6.

Edit: Vanquisher is actually 3pts more than the battle cannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 17:23:49


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey all, I recently posted two rules on the Warhammer 40k facebook page.

2D6 damage w/no take the highest
or if stationary get an additional shot with the Vanquisher cannon.

Throw some likes or comments there and let's see if we can get some traction on this issue.
   
Made in nz
Camouflaged Zero





Auckland, New Zealand

I liked the forgeworld variant with the co-axial heavy stubber. But for simplicity's sake to remove rolling for rerolls just give the main gun rerolls to hit (maybe just at half range). Then as a purchasable add on, beast hunter and tank killer rounds giving wounding rerolls (or +1S) on monsters and vehicles. Keep it 2 1d6 and take the highest for damage.

I'd prefer it if the gun was more reliable rather than a higher damage potential. Rerolls on hits and wounds would give you a 50% wound rate vs T8 on a regular russ which I think is respectable.

If your attack is going too well, you have walked into an ambush

The easy way is always mined

 
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




I like the reroll if stationary (or if it scores hits with a coax MG, like the FW Stygies does).

Some other ideas: Keep it S8, make it 1D6 damage, but when shooting at vehicles with T8 or higher it wounds on a 3+ (or4+ if that's too much) and does 2D6 damage.

Another option would be to let it choose to fire HE shells again, like it used to. Obviously its points cost should reflect that.

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Bumping this, as nothing really changed with the Vanquisher cannon in the Codex. The Russ was improved with a better Grinding Advance, but that goes for all variants, so the VQ is still worse than the regular BT in terms of anti vehicle performance. And still more expensive, just to add insult to injury.
My crusade to return the Vanquisher to the throne as king of tank killers, if not points efficiency, continues.

Some proposed fixes:
1: Make the gun AP-4
2: Reroll failed wounds VS Vehicles (but not other targets)
3: 2D6 damage VS Vehicles, 1D6 damage otherwise.
4: Make it more expensive and let it fire regular Battle Cannon HE shells as an option, like it used to (pointless unless the AT shells are upgraded - otherwise just pick a Battle Tank)
Pick one or more.

I wouldn't mind it if such a fix and point increase would make it even less competative than it is now - I just want it to do what it's supposed to do.

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I'd simply bump it to S9, so it's got a better chance of wounding the tougher vehicles like Land Raiders and Knights, and better damage, maybe "2D6 take highest".
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd simply bump it to S9, so it's got a better chance of wounding the tougher vehicles like Land Raiders and Knights, and better damage, maybe "2D6 take highest".

It's gonna need a lot more than that. I've been thinking about ways to clean up the Leman Russ platform and I'll probably make a fresh post with these ideas in a day or two, including what to do for the Vanquisher.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Chris521 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd simply bump it to S9, so it's got a better chance of wounding the tougher vehicles like Land Raiders and Knights, and better damage, maybe "2D6 take highest".

It's gonna need a lot more than that. I've been thinking about ways to clean up the Leman Russ platform and I'll probably make a fresh post with these ideas in a day or two, including what to do for the Vanquisher.


It's already on a pretty cheap platform, and with Grinding Advance you'd be looking at a potential 24 wounds per turn, enough to kill a Knight. I agree that the Vanquisher could use a boost but when considering the boosts it can already get from Strategems, Doctrines and the like, it doesn't need much.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
 Chris521 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd simply bump it to S9, so it's got a better chance of wounding the tougher vehicles like Land Raiders and Knights, and better damage, maybe "2D6 take highest".

It's gonna need a lot more than that. I've been thinking about ways to clean up the Leman Russ platform and I'll probably make a fresh post with these ideas in a day or two, including what to do for the Vanquisher.


It's already on a pretty cheap platform, and with Grinding Advance you'd be looking at a potential 24 wounds per turn, enough to kill a Knight. I agree that the Vanquisher could use a boost but when considering the boosts it can already get from Strategems, Doctrines and the like, it doesn't need much.


The confusion here is when you said "2D6 take highest" which is actually what the Vanquisher has already. I think you meant to say just 2D6 or some version of it like "3D6 pick 2" or something. A flat 2D6 is absolutely something the weapon currently needs, and is something I've been running the numbers with, but I've also been playing around with a couple of other more minor tweaks to complement the damage change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 00:33:25


 
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




 Valkyrie wrote:

It's already on a pretty cheap platform, and with Grinding Advance you'd be looking at a potential 24 wounds per turn, enough to kill a Knight. I agree that the Vanquisher could use a boost but when considering the boosts it can already get from Strategems, Doctrines and the like, it doesn't need much.


Well that's if both shots hit, wound and you roll four 6's to wound.

With a regular Leman Russ battle tank, you can get 12 shots with GA. With the Catachan Doctrine, or the Cadian tank order, you get a handy reroll that makes this more likely. If all these hit (hello Cadian Pask), wound, and you roll max for damage, that's 36 wounds.
Not a likely result though, but neither is your example.

The VQ doesn't need to beat this damage potential, but it should handily beat a regular BT for anti tank damage on average. Currently it doesn't, as they both get acces to the same orders, stratagems and doctrines - and some orders/doctrines don't even apply to the VQ!

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




S14, AP-4. Let's start with that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

How about:

72" Heavy 1 S8 AP-3 3D3 damage

Basically a mini Shadowsword...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

I had planned to turn the kit I picked up into a Vanquisher, but it seems like I should hold off on that.

At 25 points over the battle cannon you would think it would have at least S9. I'll say 1d6 doesn't fill me with confidence, either, but at least it's 2d6 pick highest.

I think the stylistic question is: Do we want it to be a better penetrator or a better damager?

(Also, NUTS to the guy who decided to keep points in their own table)

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




It always used to be good at penetrating and average at damaging, but then again damage worked very differently before.
At the very least it should be able to cause more damage on average against vehicles than the basic Battlecannon, otherwise it's kinda pointless.
Higher Strength and better AP would be one way to do it, it would ensure that it wounds more often, which again results in more damage caused on average, without increasing the max damage output.

Someone suggested it could be S14 or 16... How about keep it S8, but it doubles to S16 when targeting Vehicles? Would keep it from getting too good VS monsters and characters, while making sure it slices through tank armor like it's supposed to.

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Strength 9 AP -4, with 2D6 damage. A vanquisher cannon (and similar weaponary) should be able to kill a tank or monster in one hit, no matter how slim a chance it is. Even if it requires a points increase. That’s the whole point of them.
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

Don't forget the original iteration had:

S8 + 2D6 for armor penetration

A glancing hit for a roll = to the armor value had a 1/6 chance of destroying the vehicle.

A penetrating hit for a roll > the armor value had a 2/3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Maybe it could double its S if its shooting at Titanic units?

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Strength 9 AP -4, with 2D6 damage. A vanquisher cannon (and similar weaponary) should be able to kill a tank or monster in one hit, no matter how slim a chance it is. Even if it requires a points increase. That’s the whole point of them.


True, that. It really should be the predominant tankbuster.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

I would like the vanquisher to have two different firing modes, regular like a battle-cannon and vanquisher rounds (effect to be determined).
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Future War Cultist wrote:
Strength 9 AP -4, with 2D6 damage. A vanquisher cannon (and similar weaponary) should be able to kill a tank or monster in one hit, no matter how slim a chance it is. Even if it requires a points increase. That’s the whole point of them.


But isn't one shotting considered so bad...After all fluff wise any tank busting weapon(battle cannon, lascannon, missile launcher, melta gun etc) would be capable of destroying pretty much any tank in one hit.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Best possible odds of one-shotting another Russ are:

Hitting on 2s, rerolling: 35/36
Wounding on 3s: 2/3
12 damage: 1/36

For ending odds of 1.8%, if you get Pask on it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Yeah, it should be a marginal thing, with a typical result being pretty crippling to whatever your desired target main battle tank is.

What else is in the general class of a Russ? All the other armies I've had experience with in the past were pretty light on the vehicles.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






@ Infantryman

Absolutely, because that’s all a Vanquisher cannon can do, so it has to be good at it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Best possible odds of one-shotting another Russ are:

Hitting on 2s, rerolling: 35/36
Wounding on 3s: 2/3
12 damage: 1/36

For ending odds of 1.8%, if you get Pask on it.


Thank you for doing the maths. I’m happy with those numbers. Think it would need a points adjustment?
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




What are the current chances of a Battle Cannon one shotting a Russ? It can currently cause a maximum of 18 damage pr shot (36 with GA), but that's unlikely. But what are its chances of causing more than 12?
If using Pask, he will most likely give himself the "Grind them to dust" order, re-rolling how many shots he gets.

Current points cost is fine IMO for S9 AP-4 2D6 damage.

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

My old proposal was to keep it the same everything except damage, and then make the damage 4d6 & drop the two lowest.

That's an average damage of around 9.31 per wound, and that's finally good enough against tanks that it's worth sacrificing the Leman Russ's basic utility against literally everything else that isn't a tank.

Vs another Russ, including Grinding Advance:

Current LRBT: 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.17 after save, 2.33 damage

Current Vanquisher: 2 shots, 1 hit, .5 wounds, 1.875 damage

Proposed Vanquisher (Str 9, -4, 2d6 damage): 2 shots, 1 hit, .67 wounds, 4.66 damage.

My proposed Vanquisher (Str 8, -3, 4d6 D2 damage): 2 shots, 1 hit, .5 wounds, 3.9 damage.

The Proposed Str. 9, -4 AP, 2d6 damage vanquisher would be a reasonable upgrade to the current LRBT, I believe - doubling its average damage against tanks while sacrificing tons of capability against all other targets. It is also more reliable than my proposal.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Assuming Pask, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, and with 9 shots...

Successful wounds are as follows (Number of wounds.....Percent chance of that happening.....Percent chance of one-shotting a Russ.....Odds of it actually happening):

0.....2.95.....0.....0

1.....12.71.....0.....0

2.....24.37.....0.....0

3.....27.27.....0.....0

4.....19.61.....1.23.....0.24

5.....9.40.....20.99.....1.97

6.....3.00.....59.67.....1.79

7.....0.62.....87.47.....0.54

8.....0.07.....97.61.....0.07

9.....0.00.....0.....0

For total odds of one-shotting of...

4.61%

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd simply bump it to S9, so it's got a better chance of wounding the tougher vehicles like Land Raiders and Knights, and better damage, maybe "2D6 take highest".


s13; it should be able to rip right through wyverns and other non main battle tanks.

In fact, maybe "subtract target model's toughness from the weapon's str; this is how much damage is done on a failed save". It'd make the single shot gimmick much more interesting, and better represent how turning a tank hunter on, say, a captain on a bike, would work out.




Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
 
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