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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I've heard many people moan abut this rule but can't see why they think it's broken so wanted to see what good uses the community could come too.

1)Filling out a formation cheaply (while shelling kill points) certainly a list building option if you want cp also has the drawback that competitive limits formations.

2) shaving a few points of a 2010pt list by deleating a model

3) solo deepstriking suicide justicar's (limited to 2 (3 if you include the terminator))

4) solo 8 pt weird vane (note nor a character dies to a light breeze)

5) shaving the Sgt out of shooty squads to save a few pts (trade off loseing meat shield)

That's what I could come up with some considerations but none seems that strong

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 15:42:39


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






As posted in the Tyranid thread, one thing to keep in mind is that the only thing they changed with the errata is that the understrength units have to pay points for the actual models + gear fielded rather than the cost of a full minimum squad and it added how to handle understrength units in power level games.

Per page 242:
BRB wrote:Sometimes, you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available.


Emphasis added by me. You still can't have more than 1 understrength unit of a given type and it requires the unit contain as many models as you have available (meaning, for instance, you can't run a single conscript to fill a troop slot if you have 9 more sitting in your box, but you could run a brood of 2 Zoanthropes if you only have 2 of the old metal ones).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 16:30:47


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 16:55:41


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






They said they'll look into this issue cause currently you can have a lot of cheapo slot fillers to claim 9 command points for fielding battallion detachment. Also, as sarges cost the same as regular suadmates you can get some benefits out of it.

For example, orks will be able to ield nobs for 6 pts, stormnobs for 8 pts. And will be able to fill heavy support squads with 2 pts grots from big gun teams.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





One thing to note as written is that you cannot spam units of this type unless they are all different units. You also cannot have any other units that share the type in your army.

So Orks cannot have say 9 Boy boss nobs, that is not allowed because it says only one unit of each type.

Further it says you can only do this if you cannot field a minimum sized unit. If you field any minimum sized units of say boyz, you can no longer take understrength units of boyz.

SO really it is the imperium that can most abuse this system doing things like taking 6 single model troop squads and then filling out the rest of a brigade with strong units to get 9 CP. Though honestly they can already do this with inquisitorial acolytes being single models at 8 points. So you could save a couple points with a single conscript, and a single guardsmand instead of 2 acolytes (saves you 9 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strat_N8 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 17:58:54


 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

My guess is, since you'll only ever want to try to abuse this in tournaments, TOs are going to say that no understrength units are allowed.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Breng77 wrote:
One thing to note as written is that you cannot spam units of this type unless they are all different units. You also cannot have any other units that share the type in your army.

So Orks cannot have say 9 Boy boss nobs, that is not allowed because it says only one unit of each type.

Further it says you can only do this if you cannot field a minimum sized unit. If you field any minimum sized units of say boyz, you can no longer take understrength units of boyz.



I don't see this restriction like you at all. Juts because I have one minimum sized squad of Boyz does not mean I cannot run a second squad of Boyz with 1 model. I am still meeting the requirement of not being able to support a minimum squad.


SO really it is the imperium that can most abuse this system doing things like taking 6 single model troop squads and then filling out the rest of a brigade with strong units to get 9 CP. Though honestly they can already do this with inquisitorial acolytes being single models at 8 points. So you could save a couple points with a single conscript, and a single guardsmand instead of 2 acolytes (saves you 9 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strat_N8 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.


People who game the system are as honest as anyone.

There is a LOT of wiggle room in being unable to field it. Maybe I went to a tournament a hour or two away and left the other models at home. I can't very well teleport them to the tournament. Maybe I own the other models, but they aren't WYSIWYG or wern't even assembled in time. Hard to limit it solely to "you don't own them".
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.


Having available is different from owning and since it's unvarifiable what people own the sensible thing is to take it that you may take 1 of each unit understrength.

I only have 2 grey knight models available as they are what I have at the venue the rest are unavailable sat in a draw or on the spru
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Audustum wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
One thing to note as written is that you cannot spam units of this type unless they are all different units. You also cannot have any other units that share the type in your army.

So Orks cannot have say 9 Boy boss nobs, that is not allowed because it says only one unit of each type.

Further it says you can only do this if you cannot field a minimum sized unit. If you field any minimum sized units of say boyz, you can no longer take understrength units of boyz.



I don't see this restriction like you at all. Juts because I have one minimum sized squad of Boyz does not mean I cannot run a second squad of Boyz with 1 model. I am still meeting the requirement of not being able to support a minimum squad.


SO really it is the imperium that can most abuse this system doing things like taking 6 single model troop squads and then filling out the rest of a brigade with strong units to get 9 CP. Though honestly they can already do this with inquisitorial acolytes being single models at 8 points. So you could save a couple points with a single conscript, and a single guardsmand instead of 2 acolytes (saves you 9 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strat_N8 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.


People who game the system are as honest as anyone.

There is a LOT of wiggle room in being unable to field it. Maybe I went to a tournament a hour or two away and left the other models at home. I can't very well teleport them to the tournament. Maybe I own the other models, but they aren't WYSIWYG or wern't even assembled in time. Hard to limit it solely to "you don't own them".


The rule states "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available." The "honest" comes in with purposely making your models unavailable to game the system. Which is what I'm referring to. If you specifically travel to an even and leave models behind so you can field understrength units, while not "lying" you are being dishonest about what models you had to make those units. As I said it is a poor restriction of what people can field because people will conveniently have models unavailable when it suits them.

So "if you own it" really isn't even a thing, if your models are not "available" for any reason you can field one unit of this type.

However, if you can field a minimum sized unit at all you don't meet the first part of the statement "you don't have enough models to field a minimum sized unit..." you have fielded a minimum sized unit and thus can obviously do so. You also already have one unit of this type in your army so including "one unit of this type" at under strength would give you 2 units of this type. So if I have 11 Ork boyz available, I cannot field one 10 man unit, and 1 single ork. I must field an 11 man unit if I want to use all my orks.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 18:32:25


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




most likely tournaments will require full strength units to be used, so it will not be able to abused in tournements.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 mrhappyface wrote:
My guess is, since you'll only ever want to try to abuse this in tournaments, TOs are going to say that no understrength units are allowed.


The ITC already did. At any event I run, I never would have allowed it. I think it's time to just put this to rest unless you either:

A) Actually don't have the models you need and just want to play a casual game
B) Want to be That Guy
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Breng77 wrote:


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.


Yes, but it is still a pretty significant limitation. If you field a single Ork Boyz Boss Nob as an understrength unit, you cannot field 20 Boyz in another unit. That is a pretty severe limitation.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





pismakron wrote:
Breng77 wrote:


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.


Yes, but it is still a pretty significant limitation. If you field a single Ork Boyz Boss Nob as an understrength unit, you cannot field 20 Boyz in another unit. That is a pretty severe limitation.


That is not an "if you own it" as the limiting factor. That is "if you can field a minimum sized unit, you cannot field an understrength unit" as the limiting factor.

Restricting on "if you own it" would be trying to stop some one from fielding the Boss Nob on the assumption that they must own 9 Ork boyz.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I personally think that, if you want the undersized unit, you should pay for everyone regardless.

Sure 9 Necrons Warriors would still be 130, but at least I could throw a Cryptek in an Ark with them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

That doesn't work it just means no one runs it and the rule serves no purpose
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Breng77 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
One thing to note as written is that you cannot spam units of this type unless they are all different units. You also cannot have any other units that share the type in your army.

So Orks cannot have say 9 Boy boss nobs, that is not allowed because it says only one unit of each type.

Further it says you can only do this if you cannot field a minimum sized unit. If you field any minimum sized units of say boyz, you can no longer take understrength units of boyz.



I don't see this restriction like you at all. Juts because I have one minimum sized squad of Boyz does not mean I cannot run a second squad of Boyz with 1 model. I am still meeting the requirement of not being able to support a minimum squad.


SO really it is the imperium that can most abuse this system doing things like taking 6 single model troop squads and then filling out the rest of a brigade with strong units to get 9 CP. Though honestly they can already do this with inquisitorial acolytes being single models at 8 points. So you could save a couple points with a single conscript, and a single guardsmand instead of 2 acolytes (saves you 9 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strat_N8 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't get it. So basically I pay 130 points if I just want 9 Necrons Warriors?


If you only had 9 and wanted to field them before the errata, yes. Now you would only pay for the models actually fielded, but still have to obey the other restrictions.


From what I can tell, the undersized unit rule is for:

1.) Instances where someone buys a squad that has options to build an HQ model at the cost of one of the grunts (Tyranid Warriors/Prime, Meganobz/Big Mek, etc.), leaving them with an undersized squad.
2.) Instances where someone has 1-2 models that formerly came in singles and now come in packs of 3 and have a minimum squad size of 3 (Tyranid 'thropes, Crisis Suits, etc.), leaving them with a now undersized squad.
3.) Instances where someone bought models secondhand.

The biggest difficulty I see in abusing it is the clause that states one undersized unit can be included with as many models as you have available - if you own a full squad by definition you will have enough to run a full strength unit and aren't eligible to run an understrength one.


The issue with "if you own it" as the limiting factor is that you are relying on the honesty of someone gaming the system.


People who game the system are as honest as anyone.

There is a LOT of wiggle room in being unable to field it. Maybe I went to a tournament a hour or two away and left the other models at home. I can't very well teleport them to the tournament. Maybe I own the other models, but they aren't WYSIWYG or wern't even assembled in time. Hard to limit it solely to "you don't own them".


The rule states "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available." The "honest" comes in with purposely making your models unavailable to game the system. Which is what I'm referring to. If you specifically travel to an even and leave models behind so you can field understrength units, while not "lying" you are being dishonest about what models you had to make those units. As I said it is a poor restriction of what people can field because people will conveniently have models unavailable when it suits them.

So "if you own it" really isn't even a thing, if your models are not "available" for any reason you can field one unit of this type.

However, if you can field a minimum sized unit at all you don't meet the first part of the statement "you don't have enough models to field a minimum sized unit..." you have fielded a minimum sized unit and thus can obviously do so. You also already have one unit of this type in your army so including "one unit of this type" at under strength would give you 2 units of this type. So if I have 11 Ork boyz available, I cannot field one 10 man unit, and 1 single ork. I must field an 11 man unit if I want to use all my orks.


You're interpreting that rule way too broad. All it says is if you don't own enough for a minimum unit. It doesn't say it has to be my first unit. If I field a minimum unit of GK TEQ's I still don't have enough to field a minimum unit when I try to field my second.

Basically, nothing in the rule says it's measured on an army wide basis and not a per unit basis.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I agree with that interpretation I can take 5 units of vanguard and then 1 one man vanguard unit but then can't take a second 1 man vanguard
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

wish people would stop with if you own or honest, etc.

None of those are part of the typed written rules. It is a personal interpretation (and usually incorrect) It says if you don't have available.

There is no 'hiding' models, no ownership/left out in the car, etc. If they are currently AVAILABLE. Are they? then use them. If not then use the rule. Simple. Stop adding in your own made up feelings or mislabeling to discuss the rule.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am an elder player for over 20 years.

I will probably never play Ynnari list.

However if there is one race other than imperials that could abuse this rule it would be the Racial ability of SfD rule of Ynnari.

I could bring myself to do a 180 turn on this rule that I like due to elder list abuse with SfD

I have never seen anyone play Ynnari so I cannot comment yet on its effects

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/04 02:22:07


 koooaei wrote:
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Audustum wrote:

You're interpreting that rule way too broad. All it says is if you don't own enough for a minimum unit. It doesn't say it has to be my first unit. If I field a minimum unit of GK TEQ's I still don't have enough to field a minimum unit when I try to field my second.

Basically, nothing in the rule says it's measured on an army wide basis and not a per unit basis.


It says you can take one unit of that type, your minimum sized unit would have already fulfiled the one unit you were allowed to take. "...you may still include one unit..." The you can take one unit must be measured army wide, otherwise it does not function at all. The rule doesn't say you can include one under strength unit of that type in your army, it says you can include one unit of that type. So if you have an under strength unit of say Gk TEQ in your army you are disallowed from fielding any other GK TEQ squads by the understand th rule. Otherwise you would have 2 units of the GK TEQ type in your army. There are very few units where you could not just add the extra models to your minimum squad is o form a larger squad, and nothing in the game would force you to need a second unit in order to play.

Essentially when using the under strength rule you always must answer the following as true.

This under strength unit is the only one of its type in my army.

Otherwise I you are breaking RAW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 admironheart wrote:
wish people would stop with if you own or honest, etc.

None of those are part of the typed written rules. It is a personal interpretation (and usually incorrect) It says if you don't have available.

There is no 'hiding' models, no ownership/left out in the car, etc. If they are currently AVAILABLE. Are they? then use them. If not then use the rule. Simple. Stop adding in your own made up feelings or mislabeling to discuss the rule.




If you purposely make models unavailable for the purpose of power gaming you are acting contrary to the spirit of the rule. You aren't cheating you are just being a jerk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
I agree with that interpretation I can take 5 units of vanguard and then 1 one man vanguard unit but then can't take a second 1 man vanguard


The rule states that you can only have a single unit of that type, so how does taking 2 units fit that?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/04 02:44:47


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

This kind of crap belongs in YMDC. This kind of thread is toeing inflammatory for the sake of stirring up drama. "but dems the rules" isn't an arguement here.

You are just starting 40k and someone gave you four grots, ok sure you can field an understrength unit. How are you enjoying your new hobby?

You own five flash gitz but can only seem to find your ammo runt? You want to field just the Ammo Runt as an understrength unit of Flash Gitz? Your list was designed with this in mind in the first place? No ya jerk

I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





If you have 10 other ork boys you can't take a unit of 1 ork boy, you have take a unit of 11 together. If you have 31 you don't get to take 30 and 1, you have to make some legal combination like 15+16. This gets weird for upgraded squad leaders like nobs though because if you have 9 boys models and 2 nobs models you can't put both nobs into the same unit unless you 'counts as' a nob as a boy but then you're probably breaking WYSIWYG. Same for exarchs or sergeants with power fists or whatever.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Breng77 wrote:
Audustum wrote:

You're interpreting that rule way too broad. All it says is if you don't own enough for a minimum unit. It doesn't say it has to be my first unit. If I field a minimum unit of GK TEQ's I still don't have enough to field a minimum unit when I try to field my second.

Basically, nothing in the rule says it's measured on an army wide basis and not a per unit basis.


It says you can take one unit of that type, your minimum sized unit would have already fulfiled the one unit you were allowed to take. "...you may still include one unit..." The you can take one unit must be measured army wide, otherwise it does not function at all. The rule doesn't say you can include one under strength unit of that type in your army, it says you can include one unit of that type. So if you have an under strength unit of say Gk TEQ in your army you are disallowed from fielding any other GK TEQ squads by the understand th rule. Otherwise you would have 2 units of the GK TEQ type in your army. There are very few units where you could not just add the extra models to your minimum squad is o form a larger squad, and nothing in the game would force you to need a second unit in order to play.

Essentially when using the under strength rule you always must answer the following as true.

This under strength unit is the only one of its type in my army.

Otherwise I you are breaking RAW



No, you're selectively editing the rule. The rule says "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available".

It's saying you can take one under-strength unit of that type, not one unit of that type full stop. There's no prohibition on having full strength units of that type alongside it. You're reading that in. It's not saying "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field your first minimum-sized unit" it's just 'a' minimum-sized unit. That could be any unit of that type: the first, second or even third. The reason it says "one unit" is so you don't take your 2 Flash Gitz and make 2 units of 1 Flash Gits. It's saying you have to make 1 unit of 2 Flash Gitz.

There's literally no prohibition on say, having 6 Space Marines and doing 1 squad of 5 and 1 squad of 1.
   
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You can't 'find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit' if you are literally fielding enough models to do so right there in your army. That explicitly forbids the 5 and 1 squad, at least as it applies to a bunch of normal marines.

A sergeant with special gear gets more complicated as then you don't have enough models as long as the sergeants outnumber the possible minimum squads. Although many units word squad leaders as a free upgrade from a regular model in their data sheet, which would mean even during army construction they can't take the place of a model in an understrength unit as long as there's another unit of the same models that they can be attached to instead of forming a new understrength unit.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Actinium wrote:
You can't 'find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit' if you are literally fielding enough models to do so right there in your army. That explicitly forbids the 5 and 1 squad, at least as it applies to a bunch of normal marines.



Yes, you can. I field a 5 man unit. I want to field another 5 man unit, but I only have 1 model. I literally "find that [I] do not have enough models to field a minimum sized unit". Re-phrasing, I do not have enough to field a minimum sized unit. I do not have enough to field that minimum sized unit.

In English, be it British, American, Australian or any other, that sentence can be read both ways.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





The rule doesn't ask if you have enough models 'not yet assigned to another unit' or anything, just literally do you physically have the models to make this other model legal.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Actinium wrote:
The rule doesn't ask if you have enough models 'not yet assigned to another unit' or anything, just literally do you physically have the models to make this other model legal.


Kind of. It asks if you have enough to make a minimum sized unit. I don't. I have 1. To definitively be your interpretation, it'd need to say something like "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one and only one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available" or "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available, unless you already have a minimum sized unit of that type".

This whole debate also assumes that "type" = "datasheet". If it means roles, as some believe, than my side makes more sense.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





Models don't become 'unavailable' because you don't want them to be. If you have the models you can add to a unit to make it minimum strength you have to.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Audustum wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Audustum wrote:

You're interpreting that rule way too broad. All it says is if you don't own enough for a minimum unit. It doesn't say it has to be my first unit. If I field a minimum unit of GK TEQ's I still don't have enough to field a minimum unit when I try to field my second.

Basically, nothing in the rule says it's measured on an army wide basis and not a per unit basis.


It says you can take one unit of that type, your minimum sized unit would have already fulfiled the one unit you were allowed to take. "...you may still include one unit..." The you can take one unit must be measured army wide, otherwise it does not function at all. The rule doesn't say you can include one under strength unit of that type in your army, it says you can include one unit of that type. So if you have an under strength unit of say Gk TEQ in your army you are disallowed from fielding any other GK TEQ squads by the understand th rule. Otherwise you would have 2 units of the GK TEQ type in your army. There are very few units where you could not just add the extra models to your minimum squad is o form a larger squad, and nothing in the game would force you to need a second unit in order to play.

Essentially when using the under strength rule you always must answer the following as true.

This under strength unit is the only one of its type in my army.

Otherwise I you are breaking RAW



No, you're selectively editing the rule. The rule says "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available".

It's saying you can take one under-strength unit of that type, not one unit of that type full stop. There's no prohibition on having full strength units of that type alongside it. You're reading that in. It's not saying "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field your first minimum-sized unit" it's just 'a' minimum-sized unit. That could be any unit of that type: the first, second or even third. The reason it says "one unit" is so you don't take your 2 Flash Gitz and make 2 units of 1 Flash Gits. It's saying you have to make 1 unit of 2 Flash Gitz.

There's literally no prohibition on say, having 6 Space Marines and doing 1 squad of 5 and 1 squad of 1.


It cannot work that way because if you have fielded a minimum size squad you have enough models to
Field that squad. Further you are adding language to the rule stating that it means "one under strength unit of that type." It says you may include one unit of that type in your army. If you already have a unit of that type you would now have 2 units of that type. There is no selective reading. You are adding a second unit of that type.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

Breng77 wrote:
If you purposely make models unavailable for the purpose of power gaming you are acting contrary to the spirit of the rule. You aren't cheating you are just being a jerk.


wow.

edited to my heated reply for possibly being grouped with unsavory players from someone who doesn't know me...sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
. The rule says "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available".


Where does leaving at home half of my unit is cheating or powergaming?
Further you are adding language to the rule stating that it means


Where does it define spirit of the rule that equates to cheating in this section?

There is no selective reading.

If I leave most of my 5 army collection at home and half of my minimum squad. Those models are not available to me at the place of gaming. That is as written. m I required to bring in all 400+ models plus 20+ tanks and 5+ titans to make you happy? will you need to go thru my stuff? Will I have to take off my shoes for this invasive search?

Using your own words I see where you are doing the EXACT same thing that you accuse the other poster of.

And it is only your assumption that someone is power gaming if they build a list one way. Do you find many powergamers at tournaments to FLGS? Do they all play legal lists? What is your criteria that everyone else needs to jump thru to make you happy>?

Let people have their views, Let people powergame or not, Let people make their lists, but if we are playing games and follow the legal rules of the games...it seems rude and presumptious to tell others they cant play legal lists.

just my opinion in general.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/04 06:42:07


 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
 
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