Backseat Gaming.

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**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

How do?

A pet hate of mine, and a topic sparked off by the thread about getting the rules right.

See, the two subjects got me thinking. Can one backseat game without being a phallus?

On the one hand, I'm solidly and comfortably in the 'I'm terribly sorry, but that's my opponent over there, could you kindly keep out of it chum?' Camp. I'm pitting my wits and tactical nous against my opponent, not some random grognard who sees fit to stick their oar on with tactical 'suggestions'.

This was particularly prevalent in rank and flank era Warhammer. See, I was very good at setting up surprise charges and nasty traps. So to have someone not involved in the game blunder along and point it out was deeply irritating. Now, if you're coaching the player, and I went in knowing that (and I'm happy with such situations. New blood has got to learn the ropes somehow) totally fair enough. But when it's an already experienced player, just keep it to yourself, yeah?

But on the other hand, it is damned difficult to keep your trap shut when someone is cheating. Whether that's a genuine misreading of the rules, or deliberate attempts to just cheat their way to victory makes little difference. So it is tempting to butt in and try to get things going right again.

Sadly, the two aren't so neatly divisable.

So how do you go about it Dakka? How do you perform the latter, without coming across as the former?

**Goremaul**

That's a really tough one to say. Usually I'll just point out rules errors as politely as possible (and usually only with people I know). Another way would be to ask the person how the rule works, and follow it up with "I haven't encountered that before, so this is a good learning experience," or something along those lines.

**privateer4hire**

WAIT. Why Am I Talking?

Are you answering a question? Then answer.
Are you making a compliment about a clever play that just happened? Then compliment.
Are you refereeing because both players asked you? Then ref.

Otherwise, we all just need to keep our mouths shut. This is message as much for me as anyone else.

**little-killer**

It's really a pain in the ass for me, i was playing orks with movements trays, (90 boyz i win so much times) so me and my opponent agreed that even if they were not in contact, they were, to gain 1 hours on the game xD, and someone just walk in and was like omg but they are not in contact you, that's not the rules blahblabah.

Man let me do my game omg.

**mrhappyface**

privateer4hire wrote:
WAIT. Why Am I Talking?

Are you answering a question? Then answer.
Are you making a compliment about a clever play that just happened? Then compliment.
Are you refereeing because both players asked you? Then ref.

Otherwise, we all just need to keep our mouths shut. This is message as much for me as anyone else.

This guy gets it.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

If you see obvious cheating (which could almost as easily be a genuine mistake or sloppy play, although I can see there are situation where cheating is clear) get a TO (or club organiser) and let somebody official deal with it

otherwise keep quite during the game and let the victim know later

that lets them decide whether to play that person again, and if they do lets them know what to watch out for

(a surprising number may not care even if they lost as long as the cheater was not 'unfun' to play all they wanted was a chance to push their army around the board)

**Wayniac**

While my opinion is, of course, completely biased in this I believe if you are going to play a game then play it correctly. Nothing bothers me more than watching people play a game and get things wrong because it will teach them how to play the game wrong in future games. I have had people argue tooth and nail when I'm actually playing them over how the rule works and get it completely wrong because they have been taught completely wrong simply because no one ever corrected them. This is actually led to argument in game because they refused to see what the rule actually States because they are going off of what they were incorrectly taught.

This is especially frustrating with a game like AOS for example that is 4 pages and yet I continually meet people who have not even read the 4-page pamphlet to know the most basic of rules Beyond moving figures and rolling dice

**AllSeeingSkink**

Wayniac wrote:
Nothing bothers me more than watching people play a game and get things wrong because it will teach them how to play the game wrong in future games. I have had people argue tooth and nail when I'm actually playing them over how the rule works and get it completely wrong because they have been taught completely wrong simply because no one ever corrected them. This is actually led to argument in game because they refused to see what the rule actually States because they are going off of what they were incorrectly taught.

I feel this is the wrong thinking.

Playing a wargame isn't like, I dunno, learning a language; where errors if repeated become ingrained and they can't easily change it. Either the person understands and correctly interprets the rule, or they don't. Just because they got it wrong for 5 games in a row doesn't mean they can't instantly learn the correct way and immediately adjust.

If someone is unwilling to listen to your argument as to why they're wrong, it just means they're stubborn and/or you suck at making your case as to why they're wrong, it has little to do with how many incorrect games they played prior.

I think if you want to have an argument with another player who you are not currently playing against yourself about a rule, the time to do it is after the game is finished, not during... during you're just being a dick. If you can't convince them of their folly after a game then you won't be able to convince them during a game either, the only difference being you're ruining their enjoyment of the game in the process.

If your gaming group as a whole is making a lot of mistakes, the best place to address that is still outside of a game, not blow by blow during other peoples' games.

**Wayniac**

Maybe for a stranger, but i mean if I'm watching two friends playing a game and they are getting something wrong, I'd think it would be better to interject and say how it should be done, so they don't play without realizing it and then, if they play someone not in the group, get blindsided by it (I've seen this happen, someone barely knew the rules, played someone who did know the rules, and the entire game collapsed for them when they lost due to not understanding how things worked, letting their opponent take advantage of it)

**HuskyWarhammer**

Usually in my games, it's 2-4 people playing with a couple more hanging out nearby. I've found it really useful, as we have a tendency to get carried away with banter that we forget to do things like take a psychic phase or that unit of scouts hidden too well in terrain. It's also good to get someone to adjudicate rules disputes who isn't playing (particularly as we have a player who is close to tfg).

**Hollow**

It's completely dependent on the people, place, etc. Like most social situations.

**Ruin**

Wayniac wrote:
Maybe for a stranger, but i mean if I'm watching two friends playing a game and they are getting something wrong, I'd think it would be better to interject and say how it should be done, so they don't play without realizing it and then, if they play someone not in the group, get blindsided by it (I've seen this happen, someone barely knew the rules, played someone who did know the rules, and the entire game collapsed for them when they lost due to not understanding how things worked, letting their opponent take advantage of it)

Just to interject here, at what point did correcting people on the rules become "backseat gaming"?

Here is part of an excellent post from a decade ago by Warseer's TheDude on the same topic.

First, a definition. The way I see it there are many flavours of Backseat gamer. Some may exhibit only one or two of the behaviours outlined below, but they are all subtle layers in the Everlasting Gobstopper that is the Backseater, right down to that horrible little chalky bit in the middle.

The Backseater will usually range from a Level 1 or “Commentator” to the Level 5 or “Usurper”. Each Level of behaviour is usually accompanied by a greater proximity to the person ACTUALLY PLAYING.

Level 1 – Commentator

The Commentator can be found on the periphery of the game, usually on a neutral board edge. They will usually make their “insightful” comments after the fact in an attempt to appear all-seeing. They will often outline the bleeding obvious too. Usually stuff along the lines of:

“Ooh! You shouldn’t have done that!”,
“Man, I could see that coming.” and,
“Yeah, it’s not a good idea to let Meltaguns get that close to your tanks.”

Level 2 – Advisor

The Advisor can be seen looming behind his player of choice, swooping in to offer unwanted tactical advise, math-hammer calculations and range guesses. Their index fingers are their most prominent feature as they are often hovering over the table, pointing out possible moves or targets.

Level 3 – Dice Wrangler

The Dice Wrangler will, with the proficiency of most Idiot-Savants, instantaneously calculate the number of dice needed for each roll, and what score is required for success. They can be seen picking through pieces of terrain for those elusive dice that roll into the nooks and crannies of the battlefield, and piling them up in a little Dragon’s horde of their own, dishing them out as needed to the players, barely letting them show their results before sweeping them back to the pile. They can sometimes even be seen telling the players which colour dice will represent which weapons and so forth.

Level 4 – Model Mover

The Model Mover is found “assisting” the player by “speeding up the movement phase”. This of course consists of them moving the players models for them based on a sort of perceived middle ground between where the player wanted them, and where the Backseater thinks they should go. They may also be seen taking casualties off the board for the unwitting player, often without consultation.

Level 5 - Usurper

The Usurper combines the worst points of the other levels and knocks it up a notch, BAM! They will, over the course of the game, slowly push the player out of the driver’s seat, making dice rolls and making tactical decisions, eventually actually playing the game themselves as the hapless ex-player looks on from the sidelines.

Now these kinds of guys are usually pretty easily handled in 1-on-1 games. Just tell ‘em to **** off, however politely you wish to. But what about group games and mega-battles? One of the worst offences I’ve seen has been of the Usurper eventually taking over one whole side of a mega battle. And this from a guy who started with one mini.

He also puts at the end

Just to clarify, When I talk about Backseat Gamers, I mean people who actively try to paricipate in the game in one way or another despite the lack of invitation.

Helping with rules disputes and friendly comments don't really fit in here, niether does giving advice when requested. It's when they try to in some way insinuate themselves into the game uninvited that people become Backseaters

**Wayniac**

Well from what I gathered, my topic on if I was a jerk to correct my friend for getting a rule (that he read verbatim from the book!) wrong started this, so I assumed that was lumped into backseat gamer by virtue of saying "This rule works like X" or "A common trick with X rule is to do Y"

**AndrewGPaul**

Ruin wrote:

Just to interject here, at what point did correcting people on the rules become "backseat gaming"?

If it's not the game I'm currently playing, then it's "backseat gaming".

**AllSeeingSkink**

Ruin wrote:
Just to interject here, at what point did correcting people on the rules become "backseat gaming"?

*snip*

He also puts at the end

Just to clarify, When I talk about Backseat Gamers, I mean people who actively try to paricipate in the game in one way or another despite the lack of invitation.

Helping with rules disputes and friendly comments don't really fit in here, niether does giving advice when requested. It's when they try to in some way insinuate themselves into the game uninvited that people become Backseaters

You'll note that in the thing you quoted, the person offering rules help was either invited or contributing to an existing debate.

If you are interjecting where there was no dispute (ie. they played it wrong but weren't arguing over it) or if you weren't invited, then it's backseat gaming.

**Breng77**

I feel like parties outside the game should generally keep out of the game.

1.) Never give tactical advice, unless you were asked to do so.

2.) Do not make rules corrections for either player, unless asked or it is apparent that a player is cheating another player. For example one player who you know is familiar with the rules is rolling a 3++ save on his space marine captain, who does not have a storm shield and his opponent who is a newer player doesn't know better.

**TheAuldGrump**

Ruin wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
Maybe for a stranger, but i mean if I'm watching two friends playing a game and they are getting something wrong, I'd think it would be better to interject and say how it should be done, so they don't play without realizing it and then, if they play someone not in the group, get blindsided by it (I've seen this happen, someone barely knew the rules, played someone who did know the rules, and the entire game collapsed for them when they lost due to not understanding how things worked, letting their opponent take advantage of it)

Just to interject here, at what point did correcting people on the rules become "backseat gaming"?

As soon as it becomes annoying.

Some people would rather play, and get on with the game, than have some

interjecting.

Are you playing?

Are you running the event?

If no, then only interject when asked - otherwise, butt out.

The Auld Grump - and gods help you if you interject and get the rules wrong.

**fwlr**

I misquoted and misused my army yesterday and I feel awful for it. It is also REALLY irritating have someone going oh, move that there, that there and shoot that.

**insaniak**

fwlr wrote:
It is also REALLY irritating have someone going oh, move that there, that there and shoot that.

Yeah, unsolicited tactical advice is a definite no-no.

Even solicited tactical advice should be dispensed judiciously, as it may annoy the opponent.

Correcting obvious cheating is, IMO, a community service. But outside of that, whether or not it's ok to provide rules commentary is entirely situational. Some players won't mind, some will be annoyed with the interruption... A lot of gamers are more interested in just getting on with the game than with making sure that they have the rules 100% correct, so interrupting them to correct a rule that neither of the players care about isn't really helpful.

**Da Butcha**

I personal CANNOT STAND backseat gaming, because I'm a pretty low-key, uncompetitive gamer and the game is a time for me to socialize with my opponent. It doesn't matter whether the side comments are correct or wrong, insightful or insipid. I'm playing THIS GUY OVER HERE and not you.

If you go to a restaurant and two people are sitting at a table eating and talking, I hope you don't go over and participate in their conversation. You might be able to pull off a "Sorry to interrupt. That looks delicious. What is it?". If you know the person, of course, a greeting is not only fine, but nice.

That's gaming for me. It's an organized activity that allows some socializing. I'm not a big tournament player. I'm not honing a cut-throat list. I'm playing a game with a real person so I can talk/hang out with them.

Unless you have some psychic ability to determine why the two players are sitting across the table from each other, you need to assume that is a possibility, and interjecting your advice/corrections/assistance/condolence/praise is functionally identical to jumping into someone's conversation at a restaurant. DON'T DO IT.

Heck, I get bothered when people hover around the board. Not stopping for a short while. Not standing a few feet away. But standing right there as close as the players. Again, replace the gaming table with a table in a restaurant. See how creepy it is?

**Avatar 720**

I'll never give tactical advice, but if someone gets something wrong then I'll let them know. I'm grateful when it happens to me, and it doesn't matter what sort of game I'm having; if I get a rule wrong, I want to know about it. That's pretty much it.

**thekingofkings**

I will politely stfu and enjoy watching whatever comes, if one player is a asshat, then I will likely go watch something else.

**Pilau Rice**

If you ain't playin' you shouldn't be sayin'

I don't tend to open my mouth, I'll stay and watch and maybe ask questions about the guys armies and how they painted them or if a unit has been used and i've not seen it in action before I might ask what they do. But about the actual game, say nothing unless spoken to. It annoys me when people tell me I am doing it wrong, so I wouldn't subject it to anyone else.

**Talizvar**

I have seen too many people intentionally cheat to keep my trap shut when I see cheating.
We all agree to playing the game to the rules or the two players can agree on some finer points to their taste.
But we are a gaming community and someone fed a bunch a bull and then possibly perpetuating it on another person needs correction.
The only person that gets uptight is typically the dude who is intentionally cheating, anyone else is pretty cool with the correction if not presented badly.

As to "backseat gaming": it is not my game, not mine to play, keep your trap shut.
Look at a game, comment on good looking models, comment on really good rolls and move-on.
Tactics talk during a game sounds too much like trying to hijack it or pulling a "look at me I am sooooo smart!" moment.

**Jimsolo**

In a friendly event, if you see something incorrect, wait until after the game is over and then bring it up. "Does it actually work that way? I didn't want to interrupt your game, but I thought it worked this other way."

In a competitive event, for the love of Gork if you see something, say something. Don't let an incorrect rules situation play out. It could affect the entire tournament, including your own placing, so if you know you're right (check beforehand if possible), then say something, even if it does make you a d-bag.

**supreme overlord**

there are several players at our local FLGS that hover around the table giving advice, some are helpful, some are outright wrong about the advice they give and others are just there to say "nice paintjob" or "yea, those are scary to face" in any sense it slows down the game DRAMATICALLY. very frustrating when you're trying to pack a full 6-7 turn game into 2-3hrs.

**-Loki-**

Couple of examples of good and bad backseat gaming.

I was playing a game against a friend who was new to Malifaux. He earnestly seemed to be trying, he knew the rules, new what his stuff did. But it seemed he was missing some of the finer points of the game. Another friend saw his hand, and whispered a few things to him. He looked pretty surprised. During that turn he did a series of very powerful attacks that nearly crippled me, and took a win to a draw.

The other friend pointed out to him something he'd overlooked, that his master has specific triggers to immediately kill an enemy model unless the opponent discarded cards. He had simply been throwing high cards from his hand at random duels.

I didn't mind this. The guy was very new, and I personally didn't know his crew to help. So another friend helped, and suddenly he knew what he was doing wrong.

Another game I was playing third edition Infinity. Both myself and my opponent knew the rules (as well as anyone can know Infinitys rules, anyway). Someone else was hovering around and talking about random stuff. He constantly interrupted the game telling us we were doing things wrong, and citing rules - from second edition Infinity. I constantly had to remind him we were playing third edition, to which he would respond that the rules were the same. A 90 minute game dragged to nearly 3 hours because of it. I would have told him to bugger off, but he seemed to be my opponents friend.

That sort of backseat gaming is dumb and annoying. We both obviously knew the rules, and continually corrected him. At some point he should have realised he wasn't helping, and that his 'help' wasn't welcome, and should have gone back to chatting to my opponent when he had a few moments.

**leopard**

Had this a few years back at FLGS with one individual, much more so if you were playing anything other than a basic game.

e.g. in Warhammer apparently playing anything other than "Battleline" was wrong, there were apparently limits on how many characters could go in a unit etc, i.e. he had a 'comp' pack in his head and would interfere and argue if you were not playing it.

Found the best way to deal with him was to fiddle with things to make his brain hurt, stuff like either player can re-roll a number of dice each turn, allowing units to add one or two to charge distances (or charges automatically succeed), basically get things 'wrong' but by agreement specifically to make the point.

He took the hint, eventually

**Ensis Ferrae**

Breng77 wrote:

2.) Do not make rules corrections for either player, unless asked or it is apparent that a player is cheating another player. For example one player who you know is familiar with the rules is rolling a 3++ save on his space marine captain, who does not have a storm shield and his opponent who is a newer player doesn't know better.

There's enough people out there that model up a captain that looks cool to them, turn up for a game and do the "I know he's not modeled with it, but this guy has a storm shield" that even in this instance I leave them alone.

There's also enough of a certain crowd at my shop that most of us regulars, if hearing some idiotic game play going on, we'll make eye contact and all roll our eyes at each other, because at the end of the day we know that even if we wasted time trying to correct these player's misinformations, they're still gonna get gak wrong. A lot.

**Pacific**

Would never, ever interject in a game.

If I'm asked something and I know then I'll answer, that's it though.