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What's the deal with Overwatch and models armed with Flamers? You hit on a 6 when firing Overwatch, but Flamers autohit. Which is it?

phydaux wrote:
What's the deal with Overwatch and models armed with Flamers? You hit on a 6 when firing Overwatch, but Flamers autohit. Which is it?

Flamers will automatically hit. "Automatically hits" is not a modifier. It's almost like special rules are exceptions to the core rules!

Remember that Overwatch is a regular attack but one that requires a tohit roll of a 6.
Flamers doesnt do tohit rolls at all so is unaffected by that rule.

Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

That's absolutely correct rules wise, I agree.

How does that make any sense, though? If a unit is charging another unit full of flamers, they'd have to charge through the wall of fire to get to them whether they were in range when they started the charge or not.

Just seconding the above rules. Flamers auto hit a d6 models. The flamer ranges of 8" is carefully thought out now. Most deep strike type models have that more than 9" rule, so this has become a very strategic point on the table, charge range vs flamer units. I like the extra thought needed. The risk I guess. (Of course, I play Sisters and Guard, so have units with flamers)



Also, @ Crimson in jest...Don't bring logic into GW rules...By the same token, how can a person run as far as a pistol can shoot in the time you can pull the trigger once...No logic allowed!

Flamers out of range logic misstep: doesn't matter anyway. Overwatch does not countermand wound allocation: you can take all the wounds on the models in the back so you can still (potentially) make the charge.

Since the front(or nearest) models no longer die overwatch really just softens up the charging unit. And since there is no longer any sort of ban on charging first turn or after deepstrike it more or less just gives the assaultees a chance to feel like they have done something before getting hit.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

In which case it's always best to keep your flamers as far at the front as you can, as you can now allocate wounds to anyone you choose in the unit (even if they are out of LoS of the firing model).

edwardmyst wrote:
Also, @ Crimson in jest...Don't bring logic into GW rules...By the same token, how can a person run as far as a pistol can shoot in the time you can pull the trigger once...No logic allowed!

Bad example. In real life, an assailent with a knife can kill an person with a pistol at 21 feet before the pistol can be fired.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
Also, @ Crimson in jest...Don't bring logic into GW rules...By the same token, how can a person run as far as a pistol can shoot in the time you can pull the trigger once...No logic allowed!

Bad example. In real life, an assailent with a knife can kill an person with a pistol at 21 feet before the pistol can be fired.

SJ

21 feet is not the maximum threat range of a pistol though, so the example is very valid.

Not that I usually bother to defend things here...but...i'm a military historian...
And here I just watched a show where a guy can draw an old west six shooter and hit a target in less than 2/10ths of a second. that is one fast guy running with the knife... the fastest human in the world runs 40 yards in 4 seconds...or, 10 yards a second...to run 21 feet, 7/10ths of a second...so sure top in both...add in an average guy in full battle gear in rough terrain, and you might have 2 seconds to shoot that guy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Munden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TANC4VI8vF4

that lists the records for using an old style six shooter (somewhere in second paragraph. Automatics already in your hand...even faster. My old gunney could fire his 9mm and empty the clip in the time most normal soldiers in battle gear could cover 30 feet.
But hey, I do see that in the chaos of combat...of course, 21 feet is barely across my bedroom...and I had to qualify at much much farther...

crimsondave wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

That's absolutely correct rules wise, I agree.

How does that make any sense, though? If a unit is charging another unit full of flamers, they'd have to charge through the wall of fire to get to them whether they were in range when they started the charge or not.

Maybe the flamer dudes are simply distracted or occupied with something else (like not tripping over all the corpses or watching the starship breaking apart up in the atmosphere!) and arent constantly spraying they flamers out ahesd of them?

It may not make much sense unless using imagination to find some fluffy argument, like just about everything in 40k, but it should be pretty obvious that this is both to keep rules consistent and simple and good for balancing. It poses a tactical decision for chargers as well to either risk missing the charge by staying out of flamer reach, or take the searing flames face first to ensure the charge is successful.

AverageBoss wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
Also, @ Crimson in jest...Don't bring logic into GW rules...By the same token, how can a person run as far as a pistol can shoot in the time you can pull the trigger once...No logic allowed!

Bad example. In real life, an assailent with a knife can kill an person with a pistol at 21 feet before the pistol can be fired.

SJ

21 feet is not the maximum threat range of a pistol though, so the example is very valid.

Incorrect. While a pistol has a threat range at a shooting range of well over 21 feet, in an active shooting event a pistol has a very short range of threat, which is why US police tend to kill people in close quarters rather than risk harm.

SJ

Im pretty sure it is mostly also due to poor training, lack of proper de-escalation techniques and at times racial bias.

 JJ wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

In which case it's always best to keep your flamers as far at the front as you can, as you can now allocate wounds to anyone you choose in the unit (even if they are out of LoS of the firing model).

As /close/ to the front
You don't want to lose special weapons and you don't want to pull models from the front, so models in the front are safest from being removed.

As well as defensively; weapon ranges are checked on a per model basis. So if your flamer is in the back, then you're losing another few inches of range.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

IF I read this and other threads here correct can I start my charge with one model 7.5 inches away from the unit with flamers and the rest at least 8.5 inches away resulting in that they only can hit one model? If they do hit and kill one model I can select to remove a model at the back of my unit. This doesnt seem to make any sense at all if correct.

Darbagal wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

IF I read this and other threads here correct can I start my charge with one model 7.5 inches away from the unit with flamers and the rest at least 8.5 inches away resulting in that they only can hit one model? If they do hit and kill one model I can select to remove a model at the back of my unit. This doesnt seem to make any sense at all if correct.

No. If one is in range, they're all in range.

Darbagal wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Also remember that they don't get to overwatch any weapon that doesn't have range to the charging unit.

IF I read this and other threads here correct can I start my charge with one model 7.5 inches away from the unit with flamers and the rest at least 8.5 inches away resulting in that they only can hit one model? If they do hit and kill one model I can select to remove a model at the back of my unit. This doesnt seem to make any sense at all if correct.

No. Casualties don't care about range if you have even a single model within 8" of the target unit, the flamer can slaughter the lot of them. A lot of the game "doesn't make sense", it's an abstraction.