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Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
I don't like this comparison. We're seeing the specific 're-roll hit rolls of 1' and are told 'roll dice, re-roll 1's, apply -1 to hit' and applying it to a similar, yet different, situation of 're-roll failed hits'. If a model hits on 3+ and has a -1 for moving and has an effect of 're-roll failed hits', then you're not re-rolling your failed hits if you don't pick up and re-roll the 3's too. The designer note is clarifying that you don't get to change the 2 into a 1 and then re-roll that.
I can see that argument, and personally I like it and I'd like GW to clarify that as well, but until then all we have to go on is that answer. 3's can't be rerolled.
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
I don't like this comparison. We're seeing the specific 're-roll hit rolls of 1' and are told 'roll dice, re-roll 1's, apply -1 to hit' and applying it to a similar, yet different, situation of 're-roll failed hits'. If a model hits on 3+ and has a -1 for moving and has an effect of 're-roll failed hits', then you're not re-rolling your failed hits if you don't pick up and re-roll the 3's too. The designer note is clarifying that you don't get to change the 2 into a 1 and then re-roll that.
It feels a bit inconsistent how things are handled yes, since you cant check for valid rerolls after a modifier is applied, yet overcharged plasmas still explode on 1s AFTER modifiers.
But the rules say that rerolls can ONLY happen before modifiers are taken into account and any ability granting a reroll, no matter how its worded, must follow that rule.
So failed hitrolls, failed hits, roll of 1s, all follow the same rule, if it doesnt fulfill its requirement before the modifiers apply then there is no reroll.
With this in mind, if a rule ever surfaces that would grant someone an additional attack if the first one misses it would probably be very specific about it.
Like "When this model makes an attack that misses, it may immediately make one additional attack. Only applies once per attack." or similar.
Mulletdude wrote: If a model hits on 3+ and has a -1 for moving and has an effect of 're-roll failed hits', then you're not re-rolling your failed hits if you don't pick up and re-roll the 3's too.
Yes you are, because rerolls happen before modifiers. That 3 is not yet a 2, and is therefore not eligible to be rerolled under the "rerolls before modifiers" system in place.
What I find confusing about it is just that it's not clear how you go about determining whether or not a roll is "failed" before you apply modifiers. A hit roll only ever fails after you apply modifiers and compare to the attacker's BS. Before you apply modifiers it has not failed, and it's just weird to say that a hit roll which has not failed and which will not fail can nevertheless count as failed, while simultaneously saying that a hit roll which has not hit and which will not hit nevertheless isn't failed.
I agree that the FAQ seems clear about what they want us to do, but they should really directly address these types of abilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 14:36:36
This quote is from another thread discussing hit rolls and modifiers in general. But I find that it explains the concept in a great way, especially if you're having trouble breaking out of last edition's approach.
Kheirn wrote: I see the to hit rerolls as a part of your units inherent accuracy. If you reroll after modifiers, your unit would somehow become better shooters because their target is hard to hit, which doesn't make any sense at all. If anything, you'll miss more because it's hard to hit, which is perfectly depicted by the rules.
Just apply a different mindset and it's not weird at all.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
I don't like this comparison. We're seeing the specific 're-roll hit rolls of 1' and are told 'roll dice, re-roll 1's, apply -1 to hit' and applying it to a similar, yet different, situation of 're-roll failed hits'. If a model hits on 3+ and has a -1 for moving and has an effect of 're-roll failed hits', then you're not re-rolling your failed hits if you don't pick up and re-roll the 3's too. The designer note is clarifying that you don't get to change the 2 into a 1 and then re-roll that.
It feels a bit inconsistent how things are handled yes, since you cant check for valid rerolls after a modifier is applied, yet overcharged plasmas still explode on 1s AFTER modifiers.
But the rules say that rerolls can ONLY happen before modifiers are taken into account and any ability granting a reroll, no matter how its worded, must follow that rule.
So failed hitrolls, failed hits, roll of 1s, all follow the same rule, if it doesnt fulfill its requirement before the modifiers apply then there is no reroll.
With this in mind, if a rule ever surfaces that would grant someone an additional attack if the first one misses it would probably be very specific about it.
Like "When this model makes an attack that misses, it may immediately make one additional attack. Only applies once per attack." or similar.
Let's also remember special rules modify the main rules. So if you're told you can reroll misses, then following the FAQ to the end, it's after the hit roll, after modifiers, that you determine which die hit or missed/failed to hit. so the special rule would apply after the modifiers and allow you to reroll the die that missed. those trying to deny rerolling the 3's in this situation is saying that the rulebook always trumps any special rule and can not be modified in any way.
Let's also remember special rules modify the main rules. So if you're told you can reroll misses, then following the FAQ to the end, it's after the hit roll, after modifiers, that you determine which die hit or missed/failed to hit. so the special rule would apply after the modifiers and allow you to reroll the die that missed. those trying to deny rerolling the 3's in this situation is saying that the rulebook always trumps any special rule and can not be modified in any way.
The process doesn't change, you apply modifiers after any rerolls, not before - the special rules that say "reroll misses" don't change the process, they just give more opportunities for rerolls. The process is roll, determine hits/misses, rerolls, apply modifiers. Nothing changes that.
You don't reroll the 3 because it's a hit, then rerolls happen, then you take the -1 to it, making it a 2, and it no longer hits, but the time for rerolls has passed.
It's spelled out very clearly in the designer commentary.
Let's also remember special rules modify the main rules. So if you're told you can reroll misses, then following the FAQ to the end, it's after the hit roll, after modifiers, that you determine which die hit or missed/failed to hit. so the special rule would apply after the modifiers and allow you to reroll the die that missed. those trying to deny rerolling the 3's in this situation is saying that the rulebook always trumps any special rule and can not be modified in any way.
The process doesn't change, you apply modifiers after any rerolls, not before - the special rules that say "reroll misses" don't change the process, they just give more opportunities for rerolls. The process is roll, determine hits/misses, rerolls, apply modifiers. Nothing changes that.
You don't reroll the 3 because it's a hit, then rerolls happen, then you take the -1 to it, making it a 2, and it no longer hits, but the time for rerolls has passed.
It's spelled out very clearly in the designer commentary.
Yes it is, you roll, reroll, modify, then you compare it to your BS to determine hits & misses, it's at that point you know if you hit or missed. so once you know you missed you can use a special rule that says you reroll misses.
You're redoing the order for some reason. and trying to determine hits & misses twice. which is not supported by the rules nor the designer commentary.
Jacksmiles wrote: You're saying you have two opportunities to reroll, which is distinctly against doing rerolls before modifiers.
Designer Commentary: "Rerolls always happen before modifiers"
"Always" means there is never a time rerolls will happen after modifiers.
But, at the same time, you are told you reroll misses, so you've already determined that you hit or missed before going on. If you've already determined you hit, then where in the rules does it say to go back and determine a second time whether you hit?
Jacksmiles wrote: You're saying you have two opportunities to reroll, which is distinctly against doing rerolls before modifiers.
Designer Commentary: "Rerolls always happen before modifiers"
"Always" means there is never a time rerolls will happen after modifiers.
Yes, special rules will altar the basic rule book. You can't reroll a miss, until you know you've missed and the FAQ is quite clear when that is determined.
You're saying the rule book can never be modified in any way? any special rule that tries to change the way a rule work can never be used?
Rerolling after modifiers also means that models that can reroll a 1 can reroll both a 1 and 2 if given -1 to hit, as it was clarified that dice rolls can't be modified below 1. That means a -1 to hit actually powers up models that reroll 1s.
I'm guessing they envision hitting/missing as an ongoing process rather than a "check once and you got it" scenario, while we're used to just modifying what we need to get on the dice before rolling in the first place.
The fact remains they are telling us everywhere that you don't apply modifiers until AFTER you reroll. Following the rules means you literally can't put modifiers on before a reroll as they happen after.
Jacksmiles wrote: You're saying you have two opportunities to reroll, which is distinctly against doing rerolls before modifiers.
Designer Commentary: "Rerolls always happen before modifiers"
"Always" means there is never a time rerolls will happen after modifiers.
Yes, special rules will altar the basic rule book. You can't reroll a miss, until you know you've missed and the FAQ is quite clear when that is determined.
You're saying the rule book can never be modified in any way? any special rule that tries to change the way a rule work can never be used?
How is it modifying the fact that rerolls happen before modifiers? That's what you're contending but I don't see anything being altered on that front, simply that rerolls are allowed by these rules - meaning you look at how you do rerolls in the regular rules. Again, your contention would literally mean models that reroll 1s get to reroll 2s as well if they have a -1 to hit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/13 17:01:30
My kastelen robots have phosphor blasters. Their bs is 4+
Cawl is within 6" of him. He gives me the ability to re roll misses.
Stompy bots Stand still and shoot at some marines. Any rolls of 4+ are hits I don't get to re roll them. Any dice that are 1-3 I get to re roll. Pretty clear right.
Ok lets add a modifier.
Stompy bots walk towards the marines. Stompy bots shoot st the marines. Any 4+ are hits so no re rolls. 1-3 I get to re roll. Since I moved and firing hvy weapon I now subtract 1 from my rolls. ( after re rolling 1-3s) so all of my 4s now become 3s. 3 is less than my bs of 4+ so they miss. All the 5s I rolled become 4s which is my bs so those hit.
New scenario. I can re roll 1s. My bs is 3+ I fire my twin cognis autocannons at a hard to hit flyer. (-1 to hit) I roll 2233.
I hit nothing. I did not roll any ones. So no re rolls. And the 3s turn into 2s which is less than my 3+
Tldr re rolls before modifiers.
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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.
Dionysodorus wrote: Cawl actually just lets you re-roll "any hit rolls", so with him you could re-roll attacks that missed only due to modifiers.
So with call i can re roll my 4s. Lol. That's funny.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guess i should have used girlyman and some marines. He only lets you re roll misses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 22:02:45
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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.
My kastelen robots have phosphor blasters. Their bs is 4+
Cawl is within 6" of him. He gives me the ability to re roll misses.
Stompy bots Stand still and shoot at some marines. Any rolls of 4+ are hits I don't get to re roll them. Any dice that are 1-3 I get to re roll. Pretty clear right.
Ok lets add a modifier.
Stompy bots walk towards the marines. Stompy bots shoot st the marines. Any 4+ are hits so no re rolls. 1-3 I get to re roll. Since I moved and firing hvy weapon I now subtract 1 from my rolls. ( after re rolling 1-3s) so all of my 4s now become 3s. 3 is less than my bs of 4+ so they miss. All the 5s I rolled become 4s which is my bs so those hit.
New scenario. I can re roll 1s. My bs is 3+ I fire my twin cognis autocannons at a hard to hit flyer. (-1 to hit) I roll 2233.
I hit nothing. I did not roll any ones. So no re rolls. And the 3s turn into 2s which is less than my 3+
Tldr re rolls before modifiers.
You're making the same mistake jack is, and you're moving the determine hit/miss part and then performing it twice.
follow the FAQ, when do they determine hits & misses? so if you have an ability to reroll misses, you first have to miss. roll, modify, compare to BS. If you reroll misses it can only be after comparing it to the BS, because that is when you know you missed.
It just doesn't mesh with "Rerolls always happen before modifiers." How do you do rerolls before modifiers if you do modifiers before rerolls?
Both types of reroll ability ("reroll on 1s" and "reroll misses") grant conditional access to the reroll rule, but neither actually *change* the reroll rule, which states that rerolls happen before any modifiers are applied.
There is no reason to have ever said "rerolls *always* happen before modifiers" if they mean only on the "natural 1" abilities.
After looking at everything like half a dozen times, I think the wording could be better all around this issue, but literally every time rerolls come up the RAW states "rerolls before modifiers" which means once you add modifiers, the chance for rerolls has passed.
I suppose your contention is that because it says reroll misses that it modifies the reroll order, but I just don't see it saying that. I *do* see it saying that rerolls *always* happen before modifiers, though, and abilities that grant access to rerolls in different ways.
If i am bs4+ if i roll 1-3 that's a miss. A 4+ is a hit.
You are failing to grasp that you are Hitting up until modifiers are applied. And at that point you don't have permission to re roll dice anymore.
But my piece was said. So i doubt you will be conviced. Since it is ass backwards. I won't disagree that. Or that it is stupid how it's re rolls then modifiers.
But i did learn Cawl lets me re rolls hit or misses. Because he his Cawl Dammit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 22:32:37
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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.
Jacksmiles wrote: It just doesn't mesh with "Rerolls always happen before modifiers." How do you do rerolls before modifiers if you do modifiers before rerolls?
Both types of reroll ability ("reroll on 1s" and "reroll misses") grant conditional access to the reroll rule, but neither actually *change* the reroll rule, which states that rerolls happen before any modifiers are applied.
There is no reason to have ever said "rerolls *always* happen before modifiers" if they mean only on the "natural 1" abilities.
After looking at everything like half a dozen times, I think the wording could be better all around this issue, but literally every time rerolls come up the RAW states "rerolls before modifiers" which means once you add modifiers, the chance for rerolls has passed.
I suppose your contention is that because it says reroll misses that it modifies the reroll order, but I just don't see it saying that. I *do* see it saying that rerolls *always* happen before modifiers, though, and abilities that grant access to rerolls in different ways.
Why do you keep adding the word *always*? you've changed the order of the FAQ, and changed the rules for rerolls.
If you read the actual rule you would see that you are incorrect. Further proof that your argument is not RAW and is the wrong way to play it.
If i am bs4+ if i roll 1-3 that's a miss. A 4+ is a hit.
You are failing to grasp that you are Hitting up until modifiers are applied. And at that point you don't have permission to re roll dice anymore.
But my piece was said. So i doubt you will be conviced. Since it is ass backwards. I won't disagree that. Or that it is stupid how it's re rolls then modifiers.
But i did learn Cawl lets me re rolls hit or misses. Because he his Cawl Dammit.
Plus, again, if you do rerolls after modifiers, you can reroll 2s on overcharged plasma near a captain (using space marines with Heavy plasma weapons shooting after moving as an example).
Reroll 1s abilities say "reroll hit rolls of 1" and overcharge plasma guns say "on a hit roll of 1." Same terminology, and we already know that 2s can kill on overcharge, so "hit roll of 1" doesn't inherently mean "natural 1" - it just means "natural 1" in the context of rerolls because you don't apply modifiers before you reroll.
Jacksmiles wrote: It just doesn't mesh with "Rerolls always happen before modifiers." How do you do rerolls before modifiers if you do modifiers before rerolls?
Both types of reroll ability ("reroll on 1s" and "reroll misses") grant conditional access to the reroll rule, but neither actually *change* the reroll rule, which states that rerolls happen before any modifiers are applied.
There is no reason to have ever said "rerolls *always* happen before modifiers" if they mean only on the "natural 1" abilities.
After looking at everything like half a dozen times, I think the wording could be better all around this issue, but literally every time rerolls come up the RAW states "rerolls before modifiers" which means once you add modifiers, the chance for rerolls has passed.
I suppose your contention is that because it says reroll misses that it modifies the reroll order, but I just don't see it saying that. I *do* see it saying that rerolls *always* happen before modifiers, though, and abilities that grant access to rerolls in different ways.
Why do you keep adding the word *always*? you've changed the order of the FAQ, and changed the rules for rerolls.
If you read the actual rule you would see that you are incorrect. Further proof that your argument is not RAW and is the wrong way to play it.
What are you talking about, "changed the order of the FAQ"? I'm not changing anything. You're claiming that one way that grants conditional access to rerolls changes how rerolls even work. From the designer commentary, as I mentioned before, the word "always" is pretty front and clear. Partially quoted below:
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls? A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers. For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1). The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/13 22:43:48
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.
ie the other 2 missed.
Now read the whole faq and tell me where they figured out which dice hit and missed.
oh ya, after the roll, and after the modifiers, then we can see if we hit or missed. so if you have a special rule to reroll misses, you'd do that after you figure out which dice hit & miss . just the usual special rules modifying the rule book.
Next you'll be telling me if I have a rule that let's me roll 3d6 for a charge that I can't use that ability because the rule book says 2d6.
rerolling 1's and rerolling misses are two different abilities and they interact with the rules differently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 22:56:11
2017/07/13 23:04:33
Subject: Re:Hit modifiers and re-rolling hit rolls
People have probably pointed it out before. But i think they either didn't actually intend it to work this way and cocked up the answer or changed their minds on the fly without thinking it through. A few abilities dont make much sense with playing this way. Notably the tau markerlight, where bonus 5 cancels out bonus 1 due to this ruling about modifiers yet it states all bonus are comulative. It makes bojus 5 even nore worthless than it already is.
2017/07/13 23:18:56
Subject: Re:Hit modifiers and re-rolling hit rolls
Bobug wrote: People have probably pointed it out before. But i think they either didn't actually intend it to work this way and cocked up the answer or changed their minds on the fly without thinking it through. A few abilities dont make much sense with playing this way. Notably the tau markerlight, where bonus 5 cancels out bonus 1 due to this ruling about modifiers yet it states all bonus are cumulative. It makes bojus 5 even nore worthless than it already is.
The 5 bonus isn't completely worthless - a natural 1 To Hit is always a failure. So for a commander-spam list where you're always hitting on 2s? Useless unless they have other negative modifiers on their attacks. For everything else that hits on a 4+? Those 3s now hit.
So you roll To Hit, you get say, 3 1s. Then you re-roll (because modifiers aren't applied until after your opportunity to re-roll), and get 2, 3 & 5. Then you add the modifiers and that 3 becomes a 4. It's just not as powerful as you think it should be.
In fact, if they had ruled the opposite way (modifiers before re-rolls) it'd make the 5 option mostly negate the 1 option (unless you have negative modifiers to cancel the +1 out).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/13 23:20:22
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